RAD/RHINO ELECTRIC BIKE

[Stephen Humphries]

Hello pedelecs i am a new member. Iam thinking about buying the rad/rhino electric bike but was put of by having to register and insure it. I email RAD about this and here is their reply

Teun Kruijff (Rad Power Bikes)
Feb 13, 2:55 AM PST
Hello Stephen,

Thanks for reaching out and sharing your feedback.
Our bike are indeed less expensive in the US, than in Europe. What you should take in mind, is that we in Europe have VAT (which we include in our prices), the prices on our US website are excluding sales taxes.

Regarding the registration of our bikes, I refer to the following text on our website:

Recently, customers in UK have been refused registration by the DVLA. Even though until recently customers had to register and have registered our bikes with the DVLA, the DVLA now claims L1e-A bikes do not need to be registered. For further reference, please check this document.

Do not hesitate to contact us, if you have additional questions.

Kind regards,

Teun Kruijff
Customer Experience Specialist
Rad Power Bikes
+ 31 (0)85 747 04 30

 

[vfr400]

To be exempted from registration, the motor has to be rated at no more than 250w, the bike must have pedals and a maximum speed of 25kph or less. You can use any exempt bike with a throttle. It's not permitted to sell a 250w bike with a throttle unless it's type approved, which the Radrhino is, but it's out on motor power.

The Radrhino therefore needs to be registered and insured to use it on UK roads, which is why you don't see 750w bikes with throttles in every ebike shop.

Registering one should be dead easy because it has a type approval certificate.

 

[kangooroo]

I have been following this via a thread on Facebook where Rad bikes are insisting they are road legal in the UK and do not need to be registered. I queried it but Rad Bikes always seem a bit vague and I suspect there could be many customers riding around on them in ignorance with neither registration nor insurance.

 

[wheeliepete]

road legal in the UK and do not need to be registered

Very strange, maybe they havn't read the document in their link?

What about electric pedal cycles which are not EAPC under British Law as the power exceeds 250W, or the powered speed can exceed 15.5mph (25kph)?

These vehicles, regardless of the precise mode of power assistance, are classified as mopeds in Great Britain and like any moped, type approval has been a requirement since 2003. Depending on the maximum power and speed the vehicles will be categorised in Europe as L1e-A (not exceeding 1000kW or 25 km/h) or L1e-B (not L1e-A, and up to 4kW and 45km/h).

 

[vfr400]

To expand on that, an electric bike that's in L1eA class will be exempt from registration if the motor is rated at 250w or less and not exempt if over 250W, so being in class L1eA doesn’t necessarily make it a moped. L1eA is the class of vehicle it's type approved to.

 

[kangooroo]

The Rad bike is 1000W.... and Rad is implying it doesn't need to be registered.

 

[Stephen Humphries]

As i understand it, if the bike is classified as L1.eA. It is given a certificate of conformity and it does not matter if its over 250w up to 1kw it does not need to be registration ore insured. IT clearly states this in the link..

 

[kangooroo]

As I understand it, the bike is type-approved but at 1kW must still be registered:

http://www.mcia.co.uk/page/press-release-16:

"In order for an electric bike to enjoy the same rights as an ordinary pedal cycle, it should have working pedals, not exceed 250 Watts and the electrical assistance should cut out when the bike reaches 15.5mph.

In the UK, an electric bike over 250W is legally classified as a moped if it is to be ridden on the road. Mopeds must be 'type approved'*, registered, taxed, insured and have an MOT. The rider must have the appropriate licence/training and wear a helmet.

To recap

• For an e-bike to be treated legally as a bicycle in the UK it must be 250W or less, must have pedals and the power assistance must cut out at 15.5mph. Anything else is treated in law as a moped."

 

[vfr400]

Only EAPCs are exempt from registration etc, regardless of what class a vehicle is certified to. Anything over 250w rating is not an EAPC. Simples!

 

[soundwave]

@32kg you wont be braking any land speed records a bosch bike with a dongle would pis> all over it tbh

 

[wheeliepete]

At 32 kg it's a heavy old slug, don't be fooled by the 750 watt motor either, it may not be putting out much more power than some legal 250 watt pedalecs. I'd ask Rad Rhino the max. amp rating of the controller, If it's under 30, forget it, it's going to be very underpowered for it's weight, plus rider. If you are going to ride an illegal bike, you might as well do it in style. You can do much better for that amount of money.

 

[EddiePJ]

I have been following this via a thread on Facebook where Rad bikes are insisting they are road legal in the UK and do not need to be registered. I queried it but Rad Bikes always seem a bit vague.

I spotted an advert for the company some time back on Facebook, and asked them to provide written evidence to back up their claim. Surprise surprise, they couldn't.

I quite like the look of the Radrover Mini, (Radmini as it is called now)) but that again is a no go of a bike.

 

[Stephen Humphries]

L1e-A Category “powered cycles” impedes innovation and technological development of electric bicycles
19/02/2018
8 comments
5 min read
In an article of 15 February, Bike Europe reports “Confusion on Categorization and Type-Approval”. LEVA-EU wants to make it clear that there is no confusion whatsoever. The L1e-A category in Regulation 168/2013 has been largely overlooked (ignored?) by the electric bike sector. It is true however that the majority of member states seem to be unaware of this category and have not taken any measures to accomodate it in their traffic code.
In my position as Secretary General of the European Two-Wheel Retailers’ Association (ETRA), I have fought very hard against this category when the current type-approval system was being prepared. It seems that the sector only now wakes up to realise that there is such a thing as L1e-A powered cycles. This category stands for electric bicycles with a maximum speed of 25 km/h and a motor output of more than 250 Watt.
When the European Commission was preparing the current type-approval, which was eventually laid down in Regulation 168/ 2013, ETRA proposed to exclude not only pedal assisted bicycles up to 250 W – 25 km/h, but all electric bicycles up to 25 km/h irrespective of their motor power.
Several parties were up in arms against this proposal, accusing ETRA of trying to get “ bolides” with unbridled power on the road. With that, these parties were ignoring that the General Product Safety Directive would have come into effect, putting an obligation on manufacturers to put only safe products on the market. They also were completely indifferent to the argument that, no matter what power, the motor would always stop at 25 km/h.
The exclusion of all 25 km/h electric bicycles from type-approval would have allowed to include them in the European standard EN 15194. The application of the European standard would have allowed for a regulatory framework, which was much better adapted to electric bicycles than the type-approval for mopeds and motorcycles. The application of the European standard would have allowed for self-certification, instead of the very complicated, long, ill-adapted and extremely expensive procedure of type approval.
Perhaps the most important element: the application of the European standard would have allowed for a categorisation of these electric bicycles as bicycles. Instead, several parties continued their opposition. At that time only electric bicycles with 250 W were on the market. Their objective was to prevent bicycles with higher motor output to become available. The argument that their position would stand in the way of innovation and technical development fell on deaf ears.
This is how electric bicycles of 25 km/h with more than 250 Watt ended up in the type- approval. When Regulation 168/2013 was implemented in the national legislation of member states, nobody paid attention because there were no such bicycles on the road. Nobody, except Belgium, which decided that despite the application of type approval, any L1e-A bicycle in Belgian traffic code would have the same status as a conventional bicycle and as a electric bicycle 25 km/h-250 Watt.
This was the ultimate proof of the absurdity of including these bicycles in the type-approval. In Belgium you can ride an electric bicycle 25 km/h with a motor power of 251 W to 1KW without a helmet, without a number plate, without a driving licence and wherever conventional bicycles ride. However, the bike must be type-approved as soon as the motor power is 251 W.
So far, the problem hadn’t surfaced yet because nobody could see the use of going through type-approval for more motor power. However, the problem is now becoming an issue, mainly due to the success of cargo bikes. A growing number of cargo bike manufacturers is expressing dissatisfaction with the 250 W limit. This limit gets in the way of developing the best suited vehicles for their customers. Type-approval clearly stands in their way because the procedure is too expensive, too long, too complicated and by no means accurate.
The 250 watt limit was introduced in the 90s in a completely arbitrary way, when the Yamaha Pas was about the only electric bike on the market. It had … 250W. The 25 km/h was introduced because that was a speed limit known from mopeds. The standard limit was 45 km/h but some member states introduced a slower category of 25 km/h.
There is no scientific research whatsoever to support the idea that these limits would be required or best suited for any kind of safety reasons
When it became clear that electric bicycles with more than 250 W would remain in the type-approval, ETRA put in a great effort and succeeded to have the category excluded from unnecessary requirements and to have adapted requirements in other instances. Upon that, a discussion erupted as to whether L1e-A only allowed for electric bicycles with pedal assistance or also for electric bicycles which could be propelled by the motor itself. ETRA could not see any reason to limit L1e-A to pedal assisted bicycles and fought long and hard for the category to also include electric bicycles that work without pedal assistance or electric bicycles with a mixed propulsion. ETRA eventually won that battle. If that would not have been execpted, than it would have become technically impossible for any electric bicycle 25 km/h with more than 25 W to come on the market!
So, today L1e-A covers electric bicycles with or without pedal assistance or with a mixed propulsion up to 25 km/h and over 250 Watt. The fact that there has been hardly any vehicles type-approved in this category shows that type-approval is not the right technical framework for these vehicles. LEVA-EU stands by the ETRA position that the current exclusion of electric bicycles from the type-approval needs to be broadened considerably in order to allow for innovation and technological development. Without such a broader exclusion, it will simply be impossible to tap on the full potential of electric bicycles created by sustainable mobility policies.

 

[vfr400]

That's a good paper, but they seem to miss what's actually happened. When the 250w limit was implemented, most bikes were 24v and operating around 15 amps, so something like 350w to 400w maximum input power about 10 years ago, the majority of ebikes switched over to 36v and most were around 14 or 15 amps, so now 520w maximum input power. Then, the battle of the crank-drives started. Note that they never mention power or current. They only mention torque, but we know that torque is directly proportional to current in an electric motor. We started with about 40 NM, then 60, now 90. In fact I recently heard of a 110Nm 250w motor.

From my experience, a 60Nm crank motor takes around 18 amps, so 90Nm must be around 24 amps or 860W maximum input power. It's meangless to talk about output power because it's different at every different speed of rotation of the motor.

What that means is that the limit of 250w maximum rated power is completely irrelevant without a defined procedure on how to evaluate it, and there is none in place at the moment, which is why we have 850w or more already allowed as input power for our motors.

 

[Benjahmin]

I'm glad you managed to follow it, 'cos I lost the will to live half way through the second paragraph. How come the powers that be (who are meant to be our servants and protectors) end up making such an awful mess of overly complex partial understandings out of everything? That leads to restrictions and huge fines for someone - and the money goes - where, oh yeh, round the circle to pay more beaurocrats to make more invasive regulations so the can fine us
So whats gonna happen when somebody manages explain the difference between input and output power to them ? Quick, gag that person least we all end up with an actual 250w's to use.

 

[vfr400]

Look on the bright side. It's nearly impossible for them to prove that a bike is illegal as longas you don't put an "illegal bike" sign on it. Perhaps that why nobody has bern prosecuted.

 

[Stephen Humphries]

European Commission Confirmed Categorization Speed E-Bikes
Laws & Regulations
BRUSSELS, Belgium – The European Commission has used this year’s transition period for the new e-bike type-approval procedure to shed light on a number of unclear issues. One major issue was the categorization of different types of speed e-bikes.

E-bikes come under category L1e-A, ‘powered cycles’, or L1e-B, ‘two-wheel mopeds’, both allowing for pedal assist and/or throttle operated systems. – Photo Cube
On 1st January 2016, the new type-approval procedure based on Regulation 168/2013 has become effective. This procedure applies to all types of electric bicycles, except those on which you must pedal for the motor to assist up to 25 km/h with a maximum continuous rated power of 250W.
Until 31st December 2016 however, manufacturers still have a choice between the ‘old’ procedure based on Directive 2002/24 or the new one. On 1st January 2017 the new procedure becomes the only valid one. For that procedure the categorization of different types of e-bikes was still unclear. That’s settled now.
Categorization
For the categorization the main question was whether there was a difference depending on the type of propulsion. On some electric bicycles, the motor only assists on condition that the rider pedals. On other types, the motor can propel the vehicle by itself without the rider having to pedal. And there are also types which offer a combination of these two options.
Electric bicycles either come under category L1e-A, ‘powered cycles’, or L1e-B, ‘two-wheel mopeds’. For L1e-A, the motor has to be cut off at a speed of 25 km/h and the maximum continuous motor power should not exceed 1 kW. The L1e-B category is subject to a maximum design vehicle speed of 45 km/h and a maximum continuous rated power of 4 kW.
Official interpretation
With that, the Commission has now confirmed that all types of electric bicycles up to 25 km/h and 1 kW fall under L1e-A. This means that the bicycle may be equipped with a motor, which only assists provided you pedal, or with a motor that propels the bike by itself or with a combination or a choice of these systems.
There was a very strong opposition to this interpretation. Several stakeholders argued that only electric bicycles, of which the motor assists provided that the rider pedals, should have been categorized as L1e-A vehicles. They believed that bicycles that can work on the motor only should have been referred to category L1e-B.
Easier or more difficult type-approval
This was partly a philosophical discussion, partly an argumentation inspired by commercial motives. A number of type-approval requirements in L1e-A have been adapted to vehicles, which technically are much more related to bicycles then to mopeds.
This was interpreted by some stakeholders as allowing for an ‘easier’ type-approval, granting electric bicycles an advantage over for instance conventional mopeds, which would be subject to a more ‘difficult’ type-approval.
This does not hold good, the different requirements have been developed in order to better adapt the type-approval procedure to electric bicycles. The introduction of specific tests for frame and fork is a good example of an adapted requirement which has not exactly made type-approval easier for electric bicycles.
One of the member states, which was very much in favour of the interpretation to categorize all types of 25 km/h – 1 kW electric bicycles as L1e-A, was the UK, since historically the overall majority of electric bikes there have been equipped with a throttle. So far, the UK has been considering them as conventional bicycles. Therefore, in the past years, the UK has consistently argued against their categorization as L1e-B. Still as of 1st January 2017, they will have to be type-approved as L1e-A.

 

[IwanEllis]

Hi all, been looking for a big robust bike and Rad ebtered my searcher (although whoosh and Wisper are at the top of the list.)

I was asking on FB about this issue as bd received the following reply from Rad when pressed on the DVLA issue, thought it might be of interest:

"We have been in contact with the DVLA since 2017 regarding the need to register L1e-A vehicles in UK. The conclusion in 2017 was that L1e-A vehicles are motor vehicles and need to be registered. As Rad Power Bikes Europe is not a UK legal entity, it was and is not possible for us to register our bikes in UK on behalf of our customers. We have developed a detailed procedure that an owner follows in order to have their bike registered. Owners have successfully followed this procedure and had their bike registered.

"We are receiving feedback from some owners since about 10 months, that the DVLA has informed them that their bike does not need to be registered and thus DVLA refused to register them. We have since made several phone calls with the DVLA and have received conflicting information about the need to register our bikes. We have asked the DVLA repeatedly to send us a written confirmation about whether or not our bikes need to be registered. Unfortunately we have received promises but never received an answer in writing.

"In short:
DVLA might register the vehicle or it might refuse to register it.
If the DVLA says the bike does not need to be registered, the bike is seen as a normal ebike. You can use the bike as you use any ebike.
If the DVLA registers the bike, it is registered as a motor vehicle. In that case it needs to have vehicle insurance, the rider must wear a helmet and you are not allowed to use it on bike paths.

"All taxes are paid by Rad Power Bikes. You do not have to pay any import duties or VAT. We have to inform you that unfortunately sometimes the DVLA makes a mistake regarding the need to do a NOVA notification with the HRMC. As far as we are aware, the DVLA insisted in two cases that the bike needed a NOVA notification. In both cases we successfully explained why NOVA doesn't apply and the bikes were registered without a NOVA notification and without the need to pay additional taxes."

Make of that what you will!

 

[flecc]

Hi all, been looking for a big robust bike and Rad ebtered my searcher (although whoosh and Wisper are at the top of the list.)

I was asking on FB about this issue as bd received the following reply from Rad when pressed on the DVLA issue, thought it might be of interest:

"We have been in contact with the DVLA since 2017 regarding the need to register L1e-A vehicles in UK. The conclusion in 2017 was that L1e-A vehicles are motor vehicles and need to be registered. As Rad Power Bikes Europe is not a UK legal entity, it was and is not possible for us to register our bikes in UK on behalf of our customers. We have developed a detailed procedure that an owner follows in order to have their bike registered. Owners have successfully followed this procedure and had their bike registered.

"We are receiving feedback from some owners since about 10 months, that the DVLA has informed them that their bike does not need to be registered and thus DVLA refused to register them. We have since made several phone calls with the DVLA and have received conflicting information about the need to register our bikes. We have asked the DVLA repeatedly to send us a written confirmation about whether or not our bikes need to be registered. Unfortunately we have received promises but never received an answer in writing.

"In short:
DVLA might register the vehicle or it might refuse to register it.
If the DVLA says the bike does not need to be registered, the bike is seen as a normal ebike. You can use the bike as you use any ebike.
If the DVLA registers the bike, it is registered as a motor vehicle. In that case it needs to have vehicle insurance, the rider must wear a helmet and you are not allowed to use it on bike paths.

"All taxes are paid by Rad Power Bikes. You do not have to pay any import duties or VAT. We have to inform you that unfortunately sometimes the DVLA makes a mistake regarding the need to do a NOVA notification with the HRMC. As far as we are aware, the DVLA insisted in two cases that the bike needed a NOVA notification. In both cases we successfully explained why NOVA doesn't apply and the bikes were registered without a NOVA notification and without the need to pay additional taxes."

Make of that what you will!

The Rad Rhino as standard is rated at 750 watts and does have to be registered and used as an L1e-A Low Powered Moped.

The confusion at the DVLA has been caused by the DfT making a unique to to Great Britain ruling for 250 watt pedelecs equipped with a throttle, something that is normally not legal. They will allow them to continue unregistered as bicycles if they are passed through L1e-A Single Vehicle Approval (SVA), so long as they comply with all the other pedelec rules like the 15.5 mph cutoff and 250 watt maximum rating.

Since the Rad Rhino is 750 watts, it cannot benefit from this ruling and MUST be registered.

Anyone riding an unregistered one can be prosecuted and if that happens, they will be convicted. The DVLA refusing registration will not be an acceptable excuse in court since the law has still been broken.
.