Question on Battery Life

[PeterMaslin]

I have a Halfords Carerra Crossfuse and been using it for about a year (De-restricted)

i do about 22 miles a day on it 5 Days a week , it needs a full charge overnight and a topup charge during the day

so technically its having a charge twice a day 5 days a week , so far the battery seems to be ok , and from reading the batteries have a Lifetime based on number of charges ,

so the questions are
1. how long would you expect this battery to last before it starts not retaining full charge
2. is there any cheap or easy way to tell the status of a battery ?

 

[sjpt]

I think Bosch talk about 1000 full charge cycles ... partial charge cycles being proportionate. So at 7 or 8 charges a week you are at maybe 1/3 way through the battery life.

"Bosch actually guarantee their batteries for 2 years or 500 charge cycles (whichever comes first). This doesn't mean your battery will pack up after 2 years and 1 day. In fact Bosch themselves state that the battery should be good for around 8-9 years or 1000 full charge cycles. "

How to look after your Bosch eBike Battery – e-bikeshop.co.uk

The 300Wh & 400Wh PowerPacks used on Bosch powered eBikes are amongst the most advanced batteries currently on the electric bike market.

www.e-bikeshop.co.uk

It sounds as if you are discharging the battery much faster than normal to need a topup charge to get 22 miles on a charge. I think that extra discharge rate might reduce the life of the battery; fewer charge cycles overall. Use of the dongle would almost certainly invalidate the battery warranty, which is quite reasonable as you are not using the battery within its design parameters.

One really irritating feature of the Bosch lock-in is that the battery knows the number of charges; but the consumer software won't show it on your display. You have to take it to a Bosch dealer.

 

[soundwave]

. Use of the dongle would almost certainly invalidate the battery warranty,

they use the same batts for sclass bikes same as the motors only difference is the speed limit set in software.

excessive use will void the warranty tho as above but i have a batt from 2014 and has been dongled all its life but range is down to about 10 miles in turbo mode.

jimmy can recell the bosch batts for around 300 quid as long as the batt is working and charging if the bms looses power the batt is a bin job.

eBike Batteries

ebikebatteries.co.uk

 

[georgehenry]

I have a 2015 Haibike with a Yamaha system and 400Wh battery that I have been using to commute to work and back and have been very impressed with the continued excellent performance of the battery with very little sign of it losing capacity although it must be.

Only this year has my use of the bike fallen away with far fewer rides and much bigger gaps between rides however that is nothing to do with the bike, but other non related issues. However I used the bike recently after four weeks of inactivity and it worked the same as it always has. The bike has covered 11,352 miles.

I travel mostly cross country to work between 12 and 14 miles, using about 30% of a full battery. I enjoy my cross country ride to work and only use the lowest eco level of assist. I charge the battery back to full at work.

I ride home on the road travelling faster using the middle assist level to climb hills quicker. I generally average 20mph completing the 10 mile journey on the road in 30 minutes, sometimes a minute or so quicker and sometimes a minute or two slower. I use around 40% of the batteries capacity on the way home and store the battery in the house until the next time I use it.

So if I have any tips it would be to store the battery indoors at around 60% charged, and only charge it to full when you are going to use it soon afterwards.

If you can try not to deeply discharge your battery too often.

Used in this way a quality battery and battery management system like the Bosch and Yamaha should mean that you can get a lot of use from your battery without noticing too much loss in capacity.

Anyway that is what I have found.

 

[PeterMaslin]

for one i am not worried about the warranty on the battery , just trying to work out an estimated lifespan based on the increased usage.

yes i ride the bike on full assist mode to keep my commute under 45 mins.

annoyingly at the moment i only need a small topup , as on a 400w battery i use about 50-60% of the battery so i need a small topup to get back , if/when the battery dies i will upgrade to a 500w which i will only need to charge once a day (i had one before but it got stolen)

based on what you have said , bosch rates at 500-1000 charges and at my current usage i will hit about 500 in a year , plus with the extra drain i would expect a battery to last (based on my usage) about a year to 18 months before it wont manage my journey.

 

[vfr400]

When Bosch guarantee 2 years or 500 charges, it means down to 80% capacity compared with 100% when new, so if it goes to 79% capacity, you get a new one. When you get to 80%, the difference becomes noticeable. After that the capacity starts to accelerate downwards and the battery becomes saggy. I reckon that you will be looking for a new battery somewhere between 18 months and 2 years. Am I right that you're using full power all the time to require a charge and a bit for just 22 miles? That seems more charge than I'd expect.

Using turbo all the time will shorten the battery's life, so maybe 12 months max.

 

[Nealh]

Bosch use different cells in there batteries.
ES seller Tumich gets hold of various cells from Bosch.
The Kalkhoff BS10 6 years ago used Samsung 10a 22P cells.

 

[vfr400]

Bosch use different cells in there batteries.
ES seller Tumich gets hold of various cells from Bosch.
The Kalkhoff BS10 6 years ago used Samsung 10a 22P cells.

I bought a load from him. Panasonic 29Ps.

 

[Andy-Mat]

for one i am not worried about the warranty on the battery , just trying to work out an estimated lifespan based on the increased usage.

yes i ride the bike on full assist mode to keep my commute under 45 mins.

annoyingly at the moment i only need a small topup , as on a 400w battery i use about 50-60% of the battery so i need a small topup to get back , if/when the battery dies i will upgrade to a 500w which i will only need to charge once a day (i had one before but it got stolen)

based on what you have said , bosch rates at 500-1000 charges and at my current usage i will hit about 500 in a year , plus with the extra drain i would expect a battery to last (based on my usage) about a year to 18 months before it wont manage my journey.

I myself reckon with about 2000 - 2500 full charges for quality cells, when used correctly.
Many different effects will reduce that figure. For instance, parking the bike in the sun on a hot day, is not good. Leaving the battery on charge,once the battery is full! (Only certain very expensive chargers handle this correctly!)
Partial charges, either too short (Battery not fully charged), or as a top up (charging from say half full to full), will both count as a charge.
Using high road speeds, faster than legally allowed, can result in problems with battery capacity and with the law, as the police are getting cleverer at checking up!
Driving illegally can also be a cause for an insurance company not fully honoring the policy! (Someone here mentioned recently of a biker losing his house due to that, but I do not have any details myself, nor do I know if that is true!)
I looked online, this may be the case concerned:-

Cyclist ordered to pay £105,000 for knocking over woman who crossed road looking at phone

Robert Hazeldean ‘reeling from the impact ruling will have on my life, and concerned by the precedent that it might set for other cyclists’

www.independent.co.uk

You need to always be legal and to observe the highway code, so as to not make yourself too obvious!
A full charge from (technically) an empty battery (when the battery "tells" you that it is discharged!), is always best, this gives you the longest life for your battery and the maximum number of charges, with the maximum amount of power each time.
But it is almost impossible to achieve this as you have yourself pointed out, unless you have two batteries, and carry the second one with you already charged. That way you can ride your bike till one battery is discharged, swap them and continue riding.
Putting the empty one on charge when getting back home, but not charging the other, as it will not be completely discharged.
The practicalities of carrying the second battery for myself were easy, as my battery fits in a pannier, taking up relatively little space.
But not all batteries can do this, or possibly are difficult to swap out while on the move.
But keeping to "full from empty" charges (except when storing the battery for longer periods for any reason), will give you the optimum battery life and the maximum number of charges.
Using two batteries in this way, can mean that you get the optimum life from BOTH batteries. So for example, instead of say a max of 1,800 charges per single battery, in the way you apparently use yours (as many do!), you get the full 2,500 charges, when using two batteries! Considerably more usable life! (The actual numbers are approximate, just for an easy to understand explanation!)
You also do not have to have two identical capacity batteries either! One can be of a lower capacity, provided it can "fill in" adequately. But do not forget, if you calculate the needed capacity too "tightly", as the battery gets older and capacity starts to reduce, you may run out of capacity again! It is usually better to have "too much" capacity available!
I myself have one large capacity, and one smaller, but, even if I get caught out, I have no problems with just using muscle power to get back home.
I hope that I have given you some useful ideas, but in case I have not explained fully for you, do just ask me for further help.
Batteries are sadly still a very poorly understood subject, generally speaking, whether its for a laptop, an e-bike or a mobile phone.
You see that even here on Pedelec, so its basically normal, sadly!
Have a great day
Andy

 

[sjpt]

Batteries are sadly still a very poorly understood subject, generally speaking, whether its for a laptop, an e-bike or a mobile phone.

I certainly agree there.

One area where there is certainly no common understanding/agreement is partial charges.

Partial charges, either too short (Battery not fully charged), or as a top up (charging from say half full to full), will both count as a charge.
Have a great day
Andy

Also I would like to point out now that many people think that a part charge counts as a full charge cycle in Bosch’s terms. Well it doesn’t, if you just top the battery up a small amount, only this is recorded and will not be counted until there are enough of these partial charges to count towards a full charge cycle.

How to look after your Bosch eBike Battery – e-bikeshop.co.uk

The 300Wh & 400Wh PowerPacks used on Bosch powered eBikes are amongst the most advanced batteries currently on the electric bike market.

www.e-bikeshop.co.uk

There might be different interpretations of the work 'count', be even so not a clear agreed picture.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I certainly agree there.

One area where there is certainly no common understanding/agreement is partial charges.


There might be different interpretations of the work 'count', be even so not a clear agreed picture.

You may be too young to remember, but shortly after WW2, the name "Bosch" was used in the UK to describe anything that was rubbish!
Also, I have read the websites here in Germany, for e-bikes, (that was before I bought my last e-bike, so around 2016-7), and after reading some of the harrowing experiences of some Bosch Bike owners, I decided there and then that the old UK terminology was still probably not too far from the truth.....
Of course any company can have technical problems, but the way they handle their customers was a worry as well......
Also, my thoughts as an Engineer, any system that places all the human and electrical energy for the (in my case) back wheel, all through a single chain, also simply did not appeal to me.
My very first e-bike had a rear wheel motor and a Derailleur gears, and I never had a problem with either. Maintenance was twice replacing the chain, and once the cassette. All obtained very cheaply on e-bay!
All in 6 years of usage and a hell of a lot of kilometers! So I stayed with a new bike with a modern/similar version of that!
But everyone must decide for themselves what to buy of course.....
My first e-bike was secondhand, the battery too, and was still OK when I gave the bike away to a friend of mine, after I had used it for 6 years and I do believe it was slightly under one year old when I bought it!
So whatever I did with my battery, seemed to have given it a good long life compared to other friends, who seem to feel that one battery a year is acceptable..... I don't!
Have a great day.
Andy
PS. I neglected to mention that I was in the computer industry for over 30 years, after 10 years in the RN, and I learned a lot from looking after (then!) modern batteries when using my many, between 1983 and 2006 plus private ones since, laptops, which have been a similar chemistry to bike batteries of today, for many years now.
Li-ion versions first appearing sometime in the late 1990's if my memory serves me correctly, replacing NICADs.
I rarely needed to get replacement batteries before the 2 years (company policy!) usage/replacement took place and I was "on the road" for a large part of each year in a tech support role, using the batteries a lot.
A lot of my information was gleaned from a colleague who worked with the laptop suppliers. It was all new to me at that time....
Sony was a "leading light" with regard to Li-ion rechargeable batteries, probably over 25 years ago now....
What many also forget is the the BMS in a bike battery, its job is to shift charge and even things out, between blocks of cells, this I consider also to be part of the "charging" problem, but of course an unavoidable part!
Probably at its worst with regard to cells of less than perfect matching of characteristics and quality control at the manufacturer.
Guessing only, possibly BMS quality/type may also be a variable too that many ignore! Certainly I myself have.

 

[Woosh]

partial charges don't count as full charges.
The popular Lithium ion batteries are usually good for 5 years, it does not matter much if you work as a deliveroo or are a good weather e-biker. Try not to charge too often, wait until half or more of the battery is used.
The life expectancy of your battery depends on many factors: quality control, cell chemistry, format (cylindrical cells are better than soft pouch cells), welding (automated welding is usually better than home made), BMS, capacity, speed, roads, motor etc, so take the figure as guideline. In general, the quality of the cells is the most important factor, next is the battery must not be used over 1.5C, next the quality of water proofing and electrical contacts of the battery case.
If you need high number of charges, Lithium phosphate (aka LiFePO4) gives more the twice the number of cycles that a Lithium ion battery can give.

 

[Andy-Mat]

partial charges don't count as full charges.
The popular Lithium ion batteries are usually good for 5 years, it does not matter much if you work as a deliveroo or good weather biker.
The life expectancy of your battery depends on many factors: quality control, cell chemistry, format (cylindrical cells are better than soft pouch cells), welding (automated welding is usually better than home made), BMS, capacity, speed, roads, motor etc, so take the figure as guideline. In general, the quality of the cells is the most important factor, next is the battery must not be used over 1.5C, next the quality of water proofing and electrical contacts of the battery case.
If you need high number of charges, Lithium phosphate (aka LiFePO4) gives more the twice the number of cycles that a Lithium ion battery can give.

How would you yourself explain the long life of my first e-bike battery? Even my latest ones, both are also Panasonic, are over 2 years old and still fine...
The first bike and battery was 6+ years old (Panasonic cells) when I gave the bike away, with IMHO only a small loss of capacity....though I did not watch that too exactly.
I personally attribute that to a) good Panasonic manufacturing quality and b) my attention to detail that is not commonly given credence by others, with regard to charging....
By the way, the bike is/was still in use as far as I am aware, since I passed it on in late 2017! I saw him on it well into 2018, though only in good weather!
I admit though that I have not seen him at all recently, so he may have had to junk the bike.
Maybe he has even died, he was well over 70 (like me!)
I will try and find out, I only met him always while biking, with our dogs!
Have a great day.
Andy

 

[vfr400]

Partial charges, either too short (Battery not fully charged), or as a top up (charging from say half full to full), will both count as a charge.

A full charge from (technically) an empty battery (when the battery "tells" you that it is discharged!), is always best, this gives you the longest life for your battery and the maximum number of charges, with the maximum amount of power each time.

I don't believe any of that is true. It's the complete opposite of everything I've read. Do you have any sources for that?

Using high road speeds, faster than legally allowed, can result in problems .....with the law, as the police are getting cleverer at checking up!

Can you show us where you got that from? I don't think anybody would disagree that the police would become more informed about it, but where and how are they checking up?

Driving illegally can also be a cause for an insurance company not fully honoring the policy! (Someone here mentioned recently of a biker losing his house due to that, but I do not have any details myself, nor do I know if that is true!)
I looked online, this may be the case concerned:-

Cyclist ordered to pay £105,000 for knocking over woman who crossed road looking at phone

Robert Hazeldean ‘reeling from the impact ruling will have on my life, and concerned by the precedent that it might set for other cyclists’

www.independent.co.uk

He wasn't driving illegally in any way. He crashed into the woman, who jumped in front of him while she was crossing against a red light and texting on her phone. He was found guilty because the judge said he should have been more careful when he could see loads of pedestrians chancing the red light. He didn't have any insurance nor legal representation. If he'd had a lawyer, he might have won his case.

 

[Woosh]

How would you yourself explain the long life of my first e-bike battery?

I don't know anything about your e-bike. Batteries can last a long time, some of my customers run on the same battery for 10 years. There are no hard and fast rules as most battery deaths are caused by hitting potholes, corrosion after water ingress, welding spot failures and as you have 40/50 cells, bad luck with a cell. All you can do is to take good care of your battery, keep it in a dry, ventilated place, ride the bike regularly etc.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I don't know anything about your e-bike. Batteries can last a long time, some of my customers run on the same battery for 10 years. There is no hard and fast rules as most battery deaths are caused by hitting potholes, corrosion after water ingress, welding spot failures and as you have 40/50 cells, bad luck with a cell.

Thats interesting to hear, and it agrees with my limited knowledge completely. But so many people seem to accept such short battery life as being "normal". Even bike manufacturers only guarantee a relatively short life (Bosch).
Thanks for mentioning this, as it was good to hear that correct "usage" (as a word to use) can boost battery life well above the average.
Are you in a position, particularly regarding Li-ion, to make some recommendations? I would like to read them.
regards
Andy

 

[Woosh]

Are you in a position, particularly regarding Li-ion, to make some recommendations?

As I said before, you can only take good care of your battery, the rest (potholes, water, salty air, bad luck) is out of your control.
You should always make sure that you minimise the risks when buying a battery, especially when you don't know how long the suppliers have been trading.
Ask for the models of the cells in your battery and the charger. Post the info here, members will answer your questions.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I don't believe any of that is true. It's the complete opposite of everything I've read. Do you have any sources for that?

My own experiences using and working with different battery chemistries over the last 50 years or so. I share this information willingly, and you either can use it or not, your choice.

Can you show us where you got that from? I don't think anybody would disagree that the police would become more informed about it, but where and how are they checking up?

The police around Europe, are not the brightest, but when they see e-bikes travelling at 30MPH or so, they tend to notice!
Insurance companies will use ANY way possible, to legally refuse to cover say the results of an accident. Here the bike will be tested as the police here have a tiny unit, that can be used to test the maximum speed of any two wheeled vehicle, carried in most patrol cars, and intended for teenagers who "hot up" their 50cc mopeds to above the legal limit!! It works of course for e-bikes too.

See here:-

Many accidents here with e-bikes, the second video shows some of them.

He wasn't driving illegally in any way. He crashed into the woman, who jumped in front of him while she was crossing against a red light and texting on her phone. He was found guilty because the judge said he should have been more careful when he could see loads of pedestrians chancing the red light. He didn't have any insurance nor legal representation. If he'd had a lawyer, he might have won his case.

That may be so, but he still lost over 100,000 UK Pounds!!!! Loser!

Do many ride bikes with no insurance? Not here....
regards
Andy

 

[georgehenry]

I did my normal cross country ride to work and road ride home. Just shy of a four week gap since the bike was last used. My 400Wh Yamaha battery is now over four and a half years old and had sat in the house since it was last used at around 55% charge.



I was in two minds about going in the car as it had been raining for most of the day but it started to stop and I checked with the BBC weather and they predicted no rain and a bit of sunshine.



So the battery got plugged into the charger and ditto with my lights. Unfortunately there was not quite enough time for a full charge and I set of with 95% in the tank.



I had a great 12 mile cross country ride and then left the battery to charge back to full.



On the way home on the road I started with a full battery and completed the 10 miles in half an hour carrying full panniers and 100kg of little old me. I used 37% of my battery which is exactly the same as it did when brand new, so although the battery must be losing some capacity with age it is not showing it.

I am no techi but remember reading that partial charges are fine and better than running your battery near to empty. Anyway my battery has spent pretty much its whole life being stored inside the house at around 60% before being charged back to full as close to my departure time as possible. Mileage now has crept up to 11,374 miles.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I am no techi but remember reading that partial charges are fine and better than running your battery near to empty.

In the old days of NiCads the opposite was true but, thank goodness, battery technology has moved forward in leaps and bounds and now for lithium ion batteries its true that partial charges are fine and better than running your battery near to empty.