ProConnect 57cm, broken spoke... AGAIN !!

[timelordUK]

Hi... about 4 weeks ago my pro connect suffered a broken spoke on the rear wheel (non chain side) . No idea how it happened - noticed when I got home.
50 cycles sent me 2 spares and i got it refitted and the wheel made true at a cycle shop, costing about £12.

Now... once again I have had a second broken broke. Again on the rear wheel, again on the non chain side. This time I heared it go... I was simply riding on the flat and heard a crunch. Stopped to check and sure enough the spoke had sheard off at the hub.

With the spare I refitted the new spoke, and after a bit of adjusting managed to make it true myself...

My questions are:...
1) is this going to happen a lot. Never had a spoke go on a road bike before.
2) what are the various spoke sizes on the 57cm proconnect (i know the rear wheel at least has 2 different sizes).
3) Where can I get spares... i seem only to be able to buy boxes of 50 for about £50.
4) Is it sufficient just to reattach the spoke and adjust as necessary to geta true wheel..
5) Are there special toosl for tighening the spokes properly?

thanks in advance.....

Timelord

 

[HarryB]

Try St John Street Cycles - The UK's largest tandem & touring cycle specialist for spokes - they provide a very good service.

 

[Mussels]

Try St John Street Cycles - The UK's largest tandem & touring cycle specialist for spokes - they provide a very good service.

That's who sorted out my wheel, top job but I suspect not cheap. If you do a search on my name and "spoke" you'll see a fairly long saga which ended a couple of weeks back with the new wheel built by SJS and so far the problem looks solved.
This seems to be a fairly common problem with pedelecs and getting the wheel built to tandem standards is not a bad idea.

Edit: if it is nearly new then go back to the retailer to see what they will do about it.

 

[burncycle]

Hi there.
As you know I too have had rear wheel problems with the Pro Connect.
I ve had it back to 50cycles twice and at the moment it seems OK.
My advise is retrn it to 50cycles and let them have a good look at it.
It might take a few weeks but they generally get it sorted.
I wouldn't mess with it yourself if I were you cus the bike is too new yet.

Hope you can get some resolve soon.

Regards Bob.

 

[timelordUK]

Spokes

What sizes of spokes do I need on the pro connect - how do I get my wheel built to tandem standard -

I just attached a new spoke sent by 50cycles and tightened a bit... is this enough?

regards

 

[timelordUK]

Hi there.
As you know I too have had rear wheel problems with the Pro Connect.
I ve had it back to 50cycles twice and at the moment it seems OK.
My advise is retrn it to 50cycles and let them have a good look at it.
It might take a few weeks but they generally get it sorted.
I wouldn't mess with it yourself if I were you cus the bike is too new yet.

Hope you can get some resolve soon.


Regards Bob.

what were your rear wheel problems?

I bought the bike to save money and get fit..... if it takes a few weeks to fix thats £25 per week in fuel etc....

 

[Mussels]

how do I get my wheel built to tandem standard

At a specialist unfortunately, my first wheel rebuild was with a local shop and it lasted all of 4 miles.
I have a different bike but had the same problem and was paying £50 a week in train tickets.

 

[JamesC]

Spokes - ProConnect 2008 model

Hi... about 4 weeks ago my pro connect suffered a broken spoke on the rear wheel (non chain side) . No idea how it happened - noticed when I got home.
50 cycles sent me 2 spares and i got it refitted and the wheel made true at a cycle shop, costing about £12.

Now... once again I have had a second broken broke. Again on the rear wheel, again on the non chain side. This time I heared it go... I was simply riding on the flat and heard a crunch. Stopped to check and sure enough the spoke had sheard off at the hub.

With the spare I refitted the new spoke, and after a bit of adjusting managed to make it true myself...

My questions are:...
1) is this going to happen a lot. Never had a spoke go on a road bike before.
2) what are the various spoke sizes on the 57cm proconnect (i know the rear wheel at least has 2 different sizes).
3) Where can I get spares... i seem only to be able to buy boxes of 50 for about £50.
4) Is it sufficient just to reattach the spoke and adjust as necessary to geta true wheel..
5) Are there special toosl for tighening the spokes properly?

thanks in advance.....

Timelord

The ProConnect is a great bike, but is equipped with some Shimano bits that are relatively uncommon and quite difficult for spares.

50Cycles will have sourced stock for these specialist bits, so always worth trying them first. The bikes only became available around May/June time, so parts will be available for them through Kalkhoff.

Mainstream Shimano bits are imported to the UK by Madison (Ultimate Pursuits) and distributed through a number of outlets. However, parts arrive in batches and are quite often out of stock in the UK, requiring backorders to be placed - so it is sometimes important to buy when showing in stock or be prepared to place a back order. Petra Cycles are a good source for Shimano parts, and keep good track on back orders.

FRONT WHEEL
The front wheel has not been known to give any trouble at all as yet, but has very unusual, strong spokes. These are flattened, aero style spokes without any elbow. Threaded at both ends, the rim end has a threaded washer inside the wheel, shaped to provide a straight line to the hub, and the tensioning nipple is at the hub end.

Furthermore, the spokes are black rather than silver.

The good news is that the front wheel is supported by Madison.

Exploded view of Shimano WH-T565 F

Item 12 - Y-4C8 98020 - Spoke 298 mm, complete with threaded rim washer. In Stock today.
(This same spoke is also used in a Shimano rear wheel on the LHS, so the description looks odd for the front wheel that we use)

Item 11 - Y-4AF 05000 - Special oversized aluminium nipple that locates into the hub. In Stock today.

Note that 1 of each will set you back £4-50 + postage, and there are 24 to a wheel. So a price of £57-56 for a complete wheel might be more attractive. Not in stock - due mid November.

REAR WHEEL
Your quest for rear wheel spokes ought to be easy because the spokes are simply 13gauge (2.3 mm), painted black - 12 off 260 mm long and 12 off 274 mm long.

However, I don't know of a source other than 50cycles, and would be pleased to hear of one.

The Shimano wheel, WH-8R25, is not supported by Madison in the UK and so spokes etc are not imported as Shimano spare parts.

The Service Instructions shows the unusual lacing, accounting for the big difference in length between the radial laced spokes on the non-sprocket side, and the 2 cross spokes on the drive side.

DT Swiss list the spokes in the thick 13gauge DT Champions, but I don't know where to get them in the UK.

Best bet will be to replace the full set in 14gauge silver (2.0mm diameter) - 274 mm (available singly from SJS), and 240mm (singly ?, available as a box from Petra Cycles).

Wheel Building requires some further investment in tools, but is rewarding if you like a bit of engineering. The hardest thing I find with these Shimano wheels is finding the parts.

I look forward to hearing other views.

James

 

[JamesC]

ProConnect 2009 models

It will be interesting to see the new models of ProConnect in the near future.

As far as I could see on the Kalkhoff site, the new ProConnect (not the derailleur geared S type) is using the 36 spoke Nexus 8 / Alfine hub, which has far better potential to be built up into a "tandem" standard of wheel.

I have just completed a new rear wheel for my PC, based on the latest spec of Nexus 8 hub, the SG-8R36, coupled to a 36 spoke Mavic A319 rim.

Being a European rim, it is designed for 14G (2.0mm) spoke diameters.

The hub takes either the 13G (2.3mm) or the 14G (2.0mm) diameter spokes, so I have opted once again for the DT Swiss Alpine III spokes (which are very highly regarded for heavily laden bikes including tandems).

The Alpine III is shaped into 3 diameters - the section at the hub is 2.3mm, narrowing down to 1.8mm for the long centre section, and finally thickening up to 2.0mm at the rim entry.

Compare this with the standard ProConnect which maintains 2.3mm from hub to rim. As a result, there is very little weight difference between 24 spokes at 2.3mm and 36 Alpine III spokes.

Instead, the ride is improved by the natural give in the thinner spokes, and the likelihood of fatigue in the spokes is much reduced.


For those interested, I have laced the wheel in a standard 2 cross pattern on both sides, and the correct length of spoke is 268 mm. The hub requires very little dishing (about 3mm I think), so all 36 spokes use this length.

James

 

[burncycle]

what were your rear wheel problems?

I bought the bike to save money and get fit..... if it takes a few weeks to fix thats £25 per week in fuel etc....

Just after I bought the bike it started with a cracking and creaking in the rear wheel.
It needed to be returned to have the rear wheel re-tightened and the bearing replaced.

Then 4 weeks later it started again, though the bike needed a "full service" as 50cycles said and since then its been fine.
The down time for the bike has been about 19days to get it sorted.

I felt that the bike's parts are good quality, though I have found that Derby Cycles had put them together very poorly.

Be careful to check your bike from 50cycles very carefully if you have the know-how or test ride it in shop before you walk away.
50 cycles have done all they can to resolve my problems though and for them I cannot complain.

 

[JamesC]

Just after I bought the bike it started with a cracking and creaking in the rear wheel.
It needed to be returned to have the rear wheel re-tightened and the bearing replaced.

Then 4 weeks later it started again, though the bike needed a "full service" as 50cycles said and since then its been fine.
The down time for the bike has been about 19days to get it sorted.

I felt that the bike's parts are good quality, though I have found that Derby Cycles had put them together very poorly.

Be careful to check your bike from 50cycles very carefully if you have the know-how or test ride it in shop before you walk away.
50 cycles have done all they can to resolve my problems though and for them I cannot complain.

Bob
I agree completely that returning the wheel to 50C is the best approach. The team at 50C are good engineers and very familiar with wheel building.

Most of the comments from forum members suggests that there may be a problem in the building of the Shimano wheel, rather than the assembly of the wheel into the frame by Derby Cycles.

There are many different reasons that forum members arrive at the decision to use an ebike, but a high percentage look for dependability; high on the list for commuters and tourers, both of whom want the bike to deal with potholes, cobbles, kerbs and cycle tracks.

I have not heard of many problems with the ProConnect other than one or two with broken spokes on the rear wheel.

I think that this is probably resolved with a thorough, balanced rebuild using new spokes.

Having said that, the Shimano wheel uses an unusual combination of lacing which was likely developed for a very different purpose than an e-bike. Only time will tell if a good quality build is all that is needed.

James

 

[burncycle]

Bob
I agree completely that returning the wheel to 50C is the best approach. The team at 50C are good engineers and very familiar with wheel building.

Most of the comments from forum members suggests that there may be a problem in the building of the Shimano wheel, rather than the assembly of the wheel into the frame by Derby Cycles.

There are many different reasons that forum members arrive at the decision to use an ebike, but a high percentage look for dependability; high on the list for commuters and tourers, both of whom want the bike to deal with potholes, cobbles, kerbs and cycle tracks.

I have not heard of many problems with the ProConnect other than one or two with broken spokes on the rear wheel.

I think that this is probably resolved with a thorough, balanced rebuild using new spokes.

Having said that, the Shimano wheel uses an unusual combination of lacing which was likely developed for a very different purpose than an e-bike. Only time will tell if a good quality build is all that is needed.

James

Hi James.
Thanks for that return.
People will continue to defend these issues, though at the end of the day the bike should be the bee's knee's at £1,500 and these poor issues with the rear wheels on the Pro Connect are the sorts of things that make people spend their money elsewhere at the crunch time.
I will complete my 6 month review of the Pro Connect in December, but it wont be all roses for Kalkhoff.
I love the bike, but due to these troubles it wont be at the top of my list, come its eventual replacement.

After viewing the X-Bike I was already in regret and for the price of this bike, compared to the kalkhoff, I could have bought two of the X-bike nearly.
My advise is check out the X-Bike before you part with your money.
Its a great bike and Kalkhoff should be seriously worried for 2009.

Also people will know the problems I had getting the bike with a long wait swimming through a lake of lies.

Enough said.

Regards Bob.

 

[Danny-K]

Before I consider a Kalkhoff for next year, here's the minimum I want to see on one of the 2009 versions of the Pro Connect available for the UK market:

1) 36 Spoked wheels; no if's, no but's; 24 spoked wheels on commuters/recreational bikes are shite!

2) A complete redesign/or better set-up of the chain tensioner area.

3) The whole rear wheel drive-train replaced or with added derailleur to allow for greater owner custom adjustments. (Kalkhoff can supply ready set up as legal then the customer can adapt if in severe hilly area or Norfolk flats - at the moment if adjusted for severe hills you lose gearing on the flats and visa-versa).

If none of that happens then like The Dragons Den, Kalkhoff can count me out.

 

[Fecn]

...and these poor issues with the rear wheels on the Pro Connect are the sorts of things that make people spend their money elsewhere at the crunch time.

It was one of the contributing factors for me choosing the Agattu over the pro connent.

 

[JamesC]

Before I consider a Kalkhoff for next year, here's the minimum I want to see on one of the 2009 versions of the Pro Connect available for the UK market:

1) 36 Spoked wheels; no if's, no but's; 24 spoked wheels on commuters/recreational bikes are shite!

2) A complete redesign/or better set-up of the chain tensioner area.

3) The whole rear wheel drive-train replaced or with added derailleur to allow for greater owner custom adjustments. (Kalkhoff can supply ready set up as legal then the customer can adapt if in severe hilly area or Norfolk flats - at the moment if adjusted for severe hills you lose gearing on the flats and visa-versa).

If none of that happens then like The Dragons Den, Kalkhoff can count me out.

Danny
Thanks for coming back on these points.

I agree with your points 1 and 2, but I think point 3 is very severe. As far as I can recall, there have been no complaints regarding the Premium Nexus 8 gear hub on the ProConnect. (We agree that it is a pity that the outer casing is the unusual one, predrilled to take 24 spokes).

Your reference to the rear drive train is perhaps more to do with the aggravation that the bike is fitted with the 23T sprocket to restrain the assisted speed from the Panasonic motor, in top gear, to 15mph.

We know that the bike rides much better with smaller sprockets (19,18 or 16). With less power in my legs than average, I use the 19T and I was pleased to find that I enjoyed 1st gear for the 1st time on the steep sections up from the seafront to the Eden project and the Clay Trails behind Par and St Austell 2 weeks ago.

The gearing was ideal, getting me up 15%+ hills at around 5.5 mph in 1st.

But, to have assistance from the drive, the climb must be done at a cadence around 50. This would not suit fitter/shorter/younger people, and even I would prefer the limit of assisted cadence to be set to 60-65.

On a £1500 bike, it seems a huge pity that we are unable to adjust (plugin keypad) the software settings in the drive, to match with the individual's preferred cadence and sprocket choice.


Returning to the Nexus 8 speed hub, the overall range from 1st gear to 8th gear is 307%.

So, if I can climb my steepest hill at 5.5mph in 1st, I get 5.5 x 3.07 = about 17 mph, assisted in 8th gear. (Downhill, I run out of leg speed at about 22/23 mph with the 19T sprocket).

As Flecc has said, the legal requirements could be met by enabling motor assistance up to 7th gear, leaving 8th for pedal only.

How does the 307% range of the Nexus 8 compare witrh derailleur gears ?

A typical 8 speed cassette is 11T to 32T, giving a range of 32/11*100 = 291%. Similarly 34/11 (megarange) gives 309%.

So the only way to get a wider range with derailleurs is to use multiple chainwheels at the front - not so easy with the panasonic drive.

(Much nicer to use a 500%, 14 speed Rohloff hub, but that's another story)


Undoubtedly, the beauty of the Panasonic drive through the gears is that I can get up to 57% assistance in any gear - this is a huge help in 1st gear to get me up steep hills, and nice at 15mph+.

The Nexus 8 hub gives good range between 1st and 8th, and retains a constant chain line around chainwheel, motor drive sprocket and rear hub.

In these ideal circumstances, I agree entirely that the tensioning arm on the panasonic drive could be better engineered to require less frequent attention. However, it's position is good to maintain maximum wrap around the drive sprocket.


I have not seen the detail of the chain circuit on the ProConnect-S with derailleur gears. Are they relying on the derailleur to provide the chain tension, whilst using a fixed sprocket to provide the wrap at the motor ?

It might be an improvement, but for an all-weather bike. there are maintenance plus points to be had by keeping all the gear system protected in the hub.

It would be good to hear how the Nexus 8 enclosed hub stands up through the winter months, particularly for those using their bikes for all-weather, daily commuting.

James

 

[flecc]

I have not seen the detail of the chain circuit on the ProConnect-S with derailleur gears. Are they relying on the derailleur to provide the chain tension, whilst using a fixed sprocket to provide the wrap at the motor ?

James

It may well be fixed James, but I think it may use a larger motor drive sprocket to help attain the higher speeds, and that may scarcely need a chain wrapper arm, or may just have a fixed idler wheel in conjunction. If you have a look at this BikeTech Flyer high speed version you'll see the chain enters the chainguard at a much higher level than on the standard Pro Connect shown below, where the chain is level with the bottom of the motor unit:

 

[WALKERMAN]

Pro Connect

I have had my 53cm Pro Connect for a couple of months now and have been doing about 70 miles a week on it. I am happy with it with regard to its speed and weight and the quality seems to be pretty good. The battery lasts ages too.
I have however got a creaking noise which is difficult to find. When I put a bit pressure on the pedals it is quite loud and irritating on each downstroke. It isn't the seat as I have lubricated that for a similar noise. It sounds like it might be from the frame or headset. I just can't tell and can't get it to make the noise when stationary.
Have any other owners noticed this?

 

[flecc]

This sort of noise is very often a slightly loose crank on either right or left Walkerman. If you remove the plastic blanking plug in each crank you may be able to tighten the nut behind with a socket to tighten the crank on it's square taper. If you haven't the appropriate socket a bike shop can do it in moments.
.

 

[burncycle]

I have had my 53cm Pro Connect for a couple of months now and have been doing about 70 miles a week on it. I am happy with it with regard to its speed and weight and the quality seems to be pretty good. The battery lasts ages too.
I have however got a creaking noise which is difficult to find. When I put a bit pressure on the pedals it is quite loud and irritating on each downstroke. It isn't the seat as I have lubricated that for a similar noise. It sounds like it might be from the frame or headset. I just can't tell and can't get it to make the noise when stationary.
Have any other owners noticed this?

Hi Walkerman.
Yes thats one of the reasons my bike had to go back to 50cycles.
The bike was making a creaking noise, mainly when I was on the bike, turning the crank only. First I though it was the seat like you.
50 cycles gave it a full strip down and service and it cured the problem at present.
Ive found if you dont give the bike regular cleans and oiling it quickly starts to make noises. ie weekly or bi weekly maintainence depending on the weather.
I think this problem is a bearing issue which had to be dealt with last time, though im no bike person so its just a stab in the dark.

 

[JamesC]

I have however got a creaking noise which is difficult to find. When I put a bit pressure on the pedals it is quite loud and irritating on each downstroke. It isn't the seat as I have lubricated that for a similar noise. It sounds like it might be from the frame or headset. I just can't tell and can't get it to make the noise when stationary.
Have any other owners noticed this?

I had a persistent creak on my Torq after about 2000 miles - I thought it was the bottom bracket, but it turned out to be the bearings in one of the pedals.

Oiling didn't seem to heal it completely, but a new pair of pedals did the trick. So I reckon the bearing had become damaged.

James