Pro Connect vs. Ezee Torq vs. Wisper 905se - which is 'best'?

[dazzie]

Hi all! First post so please be gentle

I've been reading up about electric bicycles for a few weeks now and would just appreciate it if I could get some advice and some indication on whether my thinking is along the correct lines?

As far as I can tell the Ezee Torq, Kalkhoff Pro Connect and the Wisper 905se are the recognised leaders of the field, or at least the most popular off the shelf electric bikes. Am I right or am I totally off?

It's been quite difficult for me to try to establish the differences between the models but as far as I can tell:

1. The Torq is the easiest to de-restrict (just pull out and insulate a wire)
2. All three use different motors and placements.
3. The Torq has the highest peak power but because of the design (couldn't follow the reasons, but) isn't as good a hill climber as the Pro Connect (not sure where the wisper stands in comparison).
3. The Pro connect 'free wheels' the best so may be better at higher non-assisted speeds (though needs re-gearing)
4. The Pro connect and the Wisper 905se have a much greater range than the Torq.
5. Both the Wisper and the Torq can move on electric power alone, whilst the Pro Connect is 'bionic' in that it only operates in assist mode (or no assist).
6. The Torq is significantly cheaper than both the other bikes.

Is this about right or am I totally wrong?! It's really difficult to decide what to get, and throwing in the wild card of a second hand Lafree or indeed 2nd hand any electric bike only adds to the confusion.

I currently am contemplating riding 16.8 miles each way to work but this may change in the near future (the commute, that is).

Any advice will be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Daz

 

[BLADERUNNER]

Hi
unfortunately, i don't think it is possible to derestrict the latest version of the Torq.I am sure someone can confirm this.
Cheers
Russell

 

[flecc]

Congratulations Daz, you've done your homework well.

Just two points.

You'll need to check whether the current Torq 2 can be derestricted since there's been some doubt about that. The Wisper can be and will run to 18+ mph with that. Much of the Torq information in here refers to the Torq 1 which had major differences.

On the prices, the Torq 2 is £1295

The Wisper 905se bikes are:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]905se City 3...... £1,175.00
905se City S 4... £1,209.00
905se Sport 5.... £1,199.00[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]so the Torq isn't the cheapest, though cheaper than the Pro Connect.

They'll all do the job, but the longer range bikes will be a safer choice over time. Otherwise it's personal preference, and there is no substitute for test rides to see what you are most at home with.
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif].
[/FONT]

 

[dazzie]

Thanks both. Good point about the new Torq.

So I guess it's the short range of a 'cheap' older Torq vs. the range of the more expensive Pro Connect and Wisper.

Has anyone actually tested a Pro Connect and a Wisper 905se back to back or at least had a go on both? I think you're right flecc, try before you buy!

Actually, I'm 5' 9" so the wisper should fit me fine, it has the off-road boost, similar range to the Pro Connect, looks pretty funky, is £300 cheaper and as a motorcyclist I quite like the idea of having something to twist with my right hand (no, not my nipples!). The only things that put me off are the suspended forks and I don't know how free-wheeling it is compared to the Pro Connect... (oh and the thought of saving muito money by getting one of the 2nd hand torqs on ebay!)?

Daz

 

[HarryB]

A thought on range. The pro-connect as standard will have a very good range but is hopelessly under-geared compared to the other in this group. In my experience once you raise the gearing to an acceptable level any advantage disappears and the range becomes merely average and in comparison with a Torq no better. It shouldn't matter provided you are prepared to charge at work. I would definitely try before you buy but as a motorcyclist I think you might find the wisper or torq quite appealing. On the freewheeling issue the Kalkhoffs are definitely the best freewheelers but there is more stiction when you pedal. I wouldn't rule out trying the cytronex if you are interested in a pure cycling experience. It gives the pro-connect a run for its money on the freewheeling side but without the pedal stiction. You might struggle to get to work on one battery and that would be a pain. Good luck with your choice.

 

[ElephantsGerald]

Hi Daz,

I haven't tried a Pro-Connect so I can't comment.

You should probably include the Kalkhoff Agattu in your list as its cheaper that the Pro-Connect, and a 34 mile round trip should be well within its range.

On the Wisper front I use a Wisper 905SE City S (i.e. a 905SE Sport with rack/mudguard) to do a 32 mile round trip commute which includes 2762ft of ascents (see Wisper 905SE Test). I do this on a single charge and from experience I know I can go a further 8-10 miles before the battery conks out. My average speed for the commute varies between 14.5mph and 15mph.

There are a couple of 15%+ gradients which are fairly hard work, but the very low 34 tooth low gear on the Shimano megarange gears really helps. Apart from that the Wisper is very good on hills (should be much faster than a Kalkhoff on gradients up to 15% as I understand it). On my worst hill I still manage 7mph (I don't know the gradient, but its somewhere between 15% and 20%).

With regard to rolling resistance, the Wisper is essentially not much fun to ride without power. Having said that the battery range is very good so you shouldn't ever need to ride without power (unless you've messed up your charging regime or ridden too far). With the power assist on its an absolute blast.

I'm also 5'9" and I find the Wisper large, but manageable.

If you don't like the front suspension forks then check out the 905SE City, which has normal (rigid) front forks.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Elephants

 

[Chris_Bike]

I wouldn't rule out trying the cytronex if you are interested in a pure cycling experience. It gives the pro-connect a run for its money on the freewheeling side but without the pedal stiction. You might struggle to get to work on one battery and that would be a pain. Good luck with your choice.

I agree that the Cytronex is worth a look. Unless your commute is very hilly, you would do it on one battery (in my experience) but would have to re-charge (takes 90 mins) before coming home.

Good luck with the decision making (and do test ride first).

 

[coops]

Hi Dazzie & welcome to pedelecs

Just a further thought on range, to add to HarryB (Hal's) post: if you put in the same effort on a Torq as on a pro-connect and at similar speeds (though faster uphill) I think you'd get very similar or better range in suitable terrain i.e. mostly well under 10% for a Torq1, steeper hills for a Torq Trekking. The battery has 50% more capacity which allows for somewhat higher power use. I can regularly get around 25-30 miles with mixed speed use 17-18mph max, but thats on fairly flat ground & only gentle inclines .

The much shorter ranges for the Torq1 usually occur with very high speed/throttle use and either little pedalling or poor battery, or too hilly for its high motor gearing to work efficiently/at all!

The Panasonic bikes will likely climb the steepest hills best, though slowly, and sound easier to pedal without power though, as does the cytronex

The Wisper should have the longest assisted range though, with around 40% more energy still and a motor balanced between hills and speed, 45miles or so at 15mph is likely and the pedal-assist power rationing up to about 19mph should help ensure a more consistent but lesser range when ridden up to that speed .

As flecc implied though, the battery's range will decrease with time & use, so best get one that will easily cope with your needs to begin with.

Stuart.

 

[joab]

I have the EZEE kit on my bike with the same battery as the Torq, I can do more then 60km on the flat with an average speed of 22km.
The kit has now 3000km.
Regards,
Jo

 

[Phil the drill]

Hi
I haven't used the Proconnect so can't comment (until recently I thought they were 'vapourware' and their existence was only a rumour, but apparently I'm now proved wrong), but I do have a Wisper 905se sport. I, like you, am a motorcyclist of long standing (off roader enduro, and road rider), but I'm about 5'11" and just under 15st. I find the bike great, it is quick on the flat, climbs steady inclines very well, but struggles with my weight on the very steep stuff (1:5 and 1:6) - but what wouldn't heh! I have fitted an 11t to 34t freewheel rear cassette and reduced the chainring to 42t and I find this a great help. However, if you are smaller than me, and don't have any really steep stuff to climb, you shouldn't have any problems with the standard gearing.
For a standard fit the suspension forks are pretty good. I've seen a LOT worse as standard on some bikes - they are ajustable for rebound and preload, plus have a simple lockout which can be reached on the move. They don't have excessive play or slop either which is good. I'm not generally a fan of susp. forks on road bikes but these are much better than most (without hocking the wife's jewellery) and if you have potholed or rutted lanes to ride (I do) they are worth it. If you are on smooth tarmac, you'll always be best on any bike with rigid forks.
Long and short - I'm happy with my Wisper, its cheaper and more available than the Kalkhoff's, and technically simpler. I'm sure the kalkhoff's are great bikes and I can't really knock what I haven't tried - they certainly have a loyal following especially amongst the ex-pedalling fraternity. Coming from a m/c background I'd be less certain if you would find it so good, but hey give it a try!
Be interested to know what you end up with - let us know what you decide on and why!
cheers, phil

 

[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Hi Daz, I have when I joined the forum promised not to use this forum to hawk my bikes, but there is many misplaced and wrongs abiout eZee I need to clear up a few things.

1. The Torq is the easiest to de-restrict (just pull out and insulate a wire)

The Torq will easily with very little effort take you 16 mph which is really enough

2. All three use different motors and placements.

The Torq has the ideal placement of the motor in the front wheel which allows all manner of gear combinations at the rear wheel.

3. The Torq has the highest peak power but because of the design (couldn't follow the reasons, but) isn't as good a hill climber as the Pro Connect (not sure where the wisper stands in comparison).

The NEW TORQ has the highest peak climbing power, it will give you 36 N-m at 135 rpm still , there is nothing comparable. And with the Nexave 9 speed cogs behind with 36T .

3. The Pro connect 'free wheels' the best so may be better at higher non-assisted speeds (though needs re-gearing)

NO, absolute not true, the drag on the Panasonic gears going down hill example is much higher than eZee.

4. The Pro connect and the Wisper 905se have a much greater range than the Torq.

Absolutely rubbish. We have 37V x 10Ah that is a full 370 wh. On my recent utility cycling test done on the speed more suitable for the Kalkhoff at 14 moh, I got 60 MILES on one charge.

5. Both the Wisper and the Torq can move on electric power alone, whilst the Pro Connect is 'bionic' in that it only operates in assist mode (or no assist).

The NEW TORQ in stock with Cyclepoint operated on Power assist mode or pedelec mode only, but we are going back to bi-modal mode due to strong demand from customers.

6. The Torq is significantly cheaper than both the other bikes. The Torq should cost more than the Wisper but less than the Pro-Conenct, but is definitely the best value for money, check the components very carefully, all very high end, better than the Pro-connect.

7. I currently am contemplating riding 16.8 miles each way to work but this may change in the near future (the commute, that is).

I am now training for the "ToB" event, and I cycle to work everyday 11 miles each way, If you are going to do 16.8 miles each way, there is nothing better than the Torq.

Take a trip to Brighton and chekc out the bike with Cyclepoint.

Best regards
W W Ching

 

[HarryB]

3. The Pro connect 'free wheels' the best so may be better at higher non-assisted speeds (though needs re-gearing)

NO, absolute not true, the drag on the Panasonic gears going down hill example is much higher than eZee.

Can you explain technically how you can make this claim? I am a big fan of the Torq but I would dispute this.

 

[Matt]

1. The Torq is the easiest to de-restrict (just pull out and insulate a wire)

I thought the new Torq couldn't be destricted.

 

[flecc]

I thought the new Torq couldn't be destricted.

This is what BarneyD was told when he wondered why his 2008 torq could not be derestricted to do 20 mph. Here's the reply he received, posted elsewhere in the forum:

Dear Barny ,

Sorry we decided to keep the bikes to the legal speed limit of 25 kph.

I hope 50cycle would have the decency to have told you that very clearly before you oaid for the bike.

But anyway the new Torq has far more power (much more torque) than the old model.

Best regards
W W Ching

Possibly it's changed again, but I can't keep pace with the constant changes, which is why I advised Daz to check with Cyclepoint.
.

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

I thought the new Torq couldn't be destricted.

Mr Ching made many statements about how his company would only produce legal bikes but it would appear that commercial reality has sunk in and he has reverted back. Dont get me wrong though as i'm really annoyed that my torq is not derestrictable. Ching seems desparate too undermine the kalkhoffs and in the process is talking some complete tosh about how his bike is a better hill climber and has less drag when free wheeling. I own bot bkes and he is talking absolute rubbish.

 

[Phil the drill]

Torq Hill climbing

Interested to hear the comments on the hill climbing ability of the new Torq. Obviously there must be some significant changes going on here.
The Quando and Liv were supposed to be better hill climbers in the past. If both of these models have also been re-motored in the same way as the Torq they should be good for near vertical ascents!! Anyone any experience of the new ezee models specifically as hill climbers? I'd love to hear.

 

[flecc]

The Quando and Liv were supposed to be better hill climbers in the past. If both of these models have also been re-motored in the same way as the Torq they should be good for near vertical ascents!!

The old Torq had a very high internally geared motor which gave it speed but poor powered hill climbing. The new Torq motor has more torque and is a bit more normally geared so is improved on hills and a very good climber by hub motor standards. Not as good as drive through gears systems like the Panasonic on the steepest hills though, since only the strongest riders can keep the hub motor bike going fast enough to stay at the optimum hill climb power/torque point.

The Quando retains the old Torq motor, though it has optimum gearing in the Quando, and the Liv retains it's brush motor, so both those are unchanged.
.

 

[HarryB]

1. The Torq is the easiest to de-restrict (just pull out and insulate a wire)

The Torq will easily with very little effort take you 16 mph which is really enough

The way I understand it, the present Torq is restricted to 16mph, the legal maximum and waiwon's statement (in bold) confirms this (to me at any rate).

I am interested as to why he thinks the Torq could freewheel better than the Kalkhoffs.

 

[Matt]

I think that someone from cyclepoint needs to clarify whether the Torqs they are selling can be derestricted or not as it seems as clear as mud. Especially as this is probably the main selling point of the bike.

A restricted Torq does seem to be a little pointless if you ask me as you have the Wisper for speed and the Panasonics for hill climbing already.

 

[JamesC]

The way I understand it, the present Torq is restricted to 16mph, the legal maximum and waiwon's statement (in bold) confirms this (to me at any rate).

I am interested as to why he thinks the Torq could freewheel better than the Kalkhoffs.

I agree with your interpretation. I think Mr.Ching's first sentence is a quote from an earlier post, and he is confirming in the second sentence that the Torq 2 is able to assist only to the legal limit.

As I understand it, this makes the Torq 2 a better hillclimber as the full power from the controller is available at the motor, the motor being geared lower than on the Torq 1.

Regarding the freewheel comparison, there is no doubt in my mind that the kalkhoffs have optimised freewheeling (ie pedals, chain and Panasonic motor unit are completely static), leaving only the free wheel performance of the Nexus hub and the basic front wheel.

When pedalling in excess of assisted speed, the Kalkhoffs have to spin the output gear of the Panasonic unit via the chain. I think that this flows pretty freely.

So I am surprised by the comparison made by Mr.Ching.

James