Pro Connect Problems (Dying?)

[tillson]

1) The bike will be six years old in June
2) The battery is the original 24 Volt 10 Ah Panasonic
3) The bike has done 17146 miles
4) I have been using a DC-DC converter to power LED front and rear lights for the past 18 months
5) The bike is only used on the lowest power setting all the time

I don't use this bike for leisure, it is just a tool to get me to work and back. I ride the same route (20 miles very hilly round trip) most working days.

I mention the above to put the bike's use into context.

The bike has been working well up until two days ago. On my way to work, the first of the three LED lights on the handlebar controller went out at 8 miles, as it always does. When I arrived at work, 2 miles further on, I noticed that both front and rear lights (powered off the bikes battery via the DC-DC converter) were not illuminated. I checked this out at work and discovered that the DC-DC converter was only outputting 2.5 Volts as opposed to 9 Volts. The unloaded battery voltage was about 26 Volts. I assumed that the converter had failed.

On the way home, the bike felt sluggish. Because I use it on low power all the time, the assist is very subtle anyway, but this felt very underpowered, hardly any assist at all, but a there was something there. To my surprise, the bike made it all the way home without any further LEDs going out on the handlebar controller.

Today, I have used the bike again and it definitely has hardly any assist at all. It has done the full 20 miles without any of the 3 handlebar controller LEDs going out. This has never happened before, even when the bike was new nearly 6 years ago.

I experimented on the way home this evening. The assist level is virtually the same in all three assist modes and that is virtually none at all. If I switch the power off, the bike is definitely slightly harder to pedal, so the motor is doing something.

I'm suspicious because this problem coincided with the DC-DC converter failing. I have taken the feed to this off the back of the battery connection pins on the bike and then used an inline fuse in the feed wire to the converter. I am hoping that the failure of the controller has not damaged the motor in some way.

The battery is at an age where it could fail at any time, but I don't know what the symptoms of a failing Panasonic battery are. I've never heard of one of these batteries expiring. I do know that they have a sophisticated BMS so could this be drastically limiting the current available if the cells are giving up?

In a nutshell, the bikes range has suddenly extended by a factor of 3X to 4X, the assist level has suddenly dropped by a factor of 3X to 4X (but there is definitely some assist there), the assist level is the same in all three modes. Outwardly, the controller lights illuminate and operate as they should.

Can anyone give any suggestions regarding what to check? Is there a fuse or anything that could have been damaged by the failing of the DC-DC converter?

Any help appreciated. I'm very fond of my PC and don't want to throw it in a skip just yet.

 

[RobF]

don't want to throw it in a skip just yet.

50 Cycles should put it in their window with a sign saying: "Half way around the world on one battery."

 

[Cyclezee]

1)
Can anyone give any suggestions regarding what to check?

Your wallet for a new battery and ride it for another 6 years?

 

[tillson]

Your wallet for a new battery and ride it for another 6 years?

I wouldn't hesitate if I knew that it was the battery at fault.

 

[shemozzle999]

Perhaps 50 cycles could make a small concession and ship you out a new battery on a sale or return basis to see if it will cure the problem, seeing as you have religiously promoted their product for 6 years

 

[trex]

hook up a DVM - ride up a hill, if the voltage sags, there is your answer, otherwise, suspect the controller. I reckon it's the controller.

 

[Geebee]

^^ My take as well with the description.
Where is the power feed to the DC-DC coming from?

 

[tillson]

^^ My take as well with the description.
Where is the power feed to the DC-DC coming from?

Directly off the battery. The battery plugs into a set of pins, the pins have wires coming off the back which go to the motor. I have taken a feed to the DC-DC off those pins, in parrallel with the motor feed I suppose.

I suspect the controller, I don't think that the battery voltage is sagging under load because that would be indicated by the battery status lights on the handlebars.

I have a sinking feeling that the DC-DC is at the root of the problem and has damaged something. Having said this, when I switch the bike power on, it goes through a diagnostic, "boot up" and passes that stage without any error codes.

Maybe I need to borrow a battery and try that first.

 

[martin@onbike]

Are you anywhere near Worcestershire Tillson?
I'd be happy to let you use one of our old Demo Panasonics to help isolate the problem...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I can test your battery for you because I have a battery tester. It'll cost you about £7 to send it each way. No charge for testing .

 

[flecc]

Two suggestions:

I don't know if you've ever ridden your bike to the very last gasp of charge running out? If you have, you'll probably know that at one point the power drops sharply as if a cut-out has occurred, but power remains at an almost imperceptible level and the bike runs on like that with miniscule assistance for another three miles or more before finally losing all power. Since that ultra-low power is directly due to the battery state and not a unit fault, a failure in your battery has to be a possibility.

Otherwise, just a few of the first generation Panasonic units suffered a component problem in the sealed-in circuit board that meant they dropped to Eco mode only. That was one of the issues Panasonic dealt with in the new version that you have, but your problem does seem to have similarities.

 

[tillson]

Thanks Martin and d8veh for your kind offers of help.

flecc,

I have ridden the bike to complete battery cut out a few times, and I remember now, the assist level does drop substantially 2 to 3 miles before total depletion.

The level of assist that I am currently getting is much less than the Eco mode (1: 0.3) on my bike I think? It's probably similar to the level of assist just before total battery cut out. This seems odd because the charge status lights indicate fully charged (both on battery and handlebar indicator). There is no sign of the charge status dropping rapidly under load. The battery capacity test indicates 4 out of 5 LEDs lit.

The battery has to be the prime suspect given its age and use. Maybe this unusual mode of failure is a quirk of the system.

Does anyone with a Panasonic crank driven bike live near to DE7 and who would be willing to allow me to drive over to you with my bike to try a different battery?

Thanks for the suggestions chaps.

 

[tillson]

I can test your battery for you because I have a battery tester. It'll cost you about £7 to send it each way. No charge for testing .

Ideally I would like to put a known working battery on my bike and see if the problem goes away, thus identifying either my very old battery or the motor as being the cause. Will your tester give a definitive answer regarding the battery? In no way do I wish to question you abilities, I'm sure that they exceed most people's on here, but the outcome of the test will dictate what I do. A battery is a hefty investment and I think I'd throw a tantrum if I bought a new battery only to find that the same problem exists.

I don't live far from 50 Cycles, but I don't want to go there and try out a battery if I can help it. The reason being that if I do buy a new battery, it will almost certainly be from Germany where they are about £200 cheaper. It wouldn't be right to use 50 C's services for diagnostic purposes and then take the business elsewhere (same for Martin's kind offer). If I end up coming to either 50 C or On Bike, and the battery is the problem, I'll buy one from you, but that's not my plan at the moment. I hope that's fair.

So, to renew my appeal to all 24 V Panasonic crank drive bike owners. Can I bring my bike to you and try your battery on my bike for a few minute? I live in central / south Derbyshire and will travel to you with my bike. I will consider driving some distance.

Thank ye.

 

[carpetbagger]

its a bit of a drive but if you are passing near sunny Blackburn I have a battery to try on your bike and vice versa

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't live far from 50 Cycles, but I don't want to go there and try out a battery if I can help it.

Well, you could ring them up first. If I were them, I'd be happy to let you try a battery and give you advice on your problem because it gets you into the shop. While you're there, you could try out a few of the demonstrators, or is it that you're a bit scared that you'll come away £1995 lighter brandishing a shiny new BS10?

 

[tillson]

While you're there, you could try out a few of the demonstrators, or is it that you're a bit scared that you'll come away £1995 lighter brandishing a shiny new BS10?

If the battery isn't the cause of the problem, it will almost certainly mean that it's the motor which is faulty, and that can't be repaired. I know that my battery is on borrowed time, so a new motor and battery is going to be in the region of £1000.

I don't think the bike is worth spending that amount of money on, so yes I could be in the market for a replacement. I've not really given much thought to what I need or want. However, I would like to get the PC up and running, it's not so much not wanting to spend £2K+ on a new bike! I really like the Pro Connect, it suits my needs perfectly.

 

[tillson]

This probably isn't of great interest to newer forum members because it relates to an old bike, but thanks to forum member Gringo for letting me try his battery on my bike and vice versa, I have established that the Panasonic crank motor on my Pro Connect is knackered. It had done just over 17000 miles and was new in June 2008. I haven't heard of another Panasonic motor failing (though I have a vague recollection of John from EZee having a motor fail on an Agattu a few years ago) so I don't know if this is a good service life.

I am suspicious because the DC-DC converter that I use to power the lights failed simultaneously with the motor, so I think one or the other was responsible for the demise of the motor. (Which may be of interest to those who use them).

Anyway, I now the proud owner of a Kalkhoff Agattu which will shortly donate it's motor to my Pro Connect. It seems a shame really because the Agattu is a nice bike and it has had a much easier life than my bike.

 

[tillson]

......... and she lives again, thank you Martin at e-bikeshop.co.uk, and thank you flecc for putting me in touch with Martin.

Martin from e-bikeshop.co.uk has sold me a 2011 26 volt Panasonic motor which I have fitted to my Pro Connect and it's back on the road again.

I have to say that Martin and e-bikeshop have been excellent to deal with, very fair and very honest. Initially Martin was unsure of the motor's pedigree so he sent it to me, without obligation to buy, so that I could try it out on my bike. I fitted it on Saturday and have been giving it a thorough test over the past few days, which happily, turned out well.

I have a lot of experience with the 2008 Panasonic motor, but virtually no experience with any other type of Ebike drive. This later 2011 motor is much more powerful than the older version and it continues to deliver a lot of power right up to cut-off, which is rather abrupt. It doesn't phase down like the 2008 model, which initially makes the motor feel crude. I have quickly adapted my riding style to suit the different characteristics of this 2011 motor and it now feels very natural to ride again. I generally like to ride above the cut off speed and this motor really catapults me away from a standstill to a point where I can take over. The hill climbing ability is phenomenal too!

Once again, thank you Martin for your straightforward helpful approach, it's been a pleasure to deal with you and I can't recommend e-bikes.co.uk enough (I don't want to gush too much, but this has to be said)! Also the ever helpful flecc for your advice, opinions and putting me in touch with Martin.

Regards

Tom