Pro Connect Feels Rough
- Thread starter robelee
- Start date
When I bought my Pro Connect LX (Deraileur Gears) last august but within a couple of weeks there was an intermittent rumbling like a chain slip noise when the power was on yet when the power was swithched off the bike pedal silently. I did wonder if it was the motor. 50 cycles suggested I look at the chain to see if it is rubbing against the chain guard. I did but I found the problem myself. The gear cable had stretched and the chain seemed dry. I adjusted the gear cable by tightening it and fine tuning the gear changing and lubed the chain. Now the bike rides like the reviews say it does; it is silent and it is smooth running and a delight to ride. The rumbling noise has gone but when the gears dont change as sharp as I like, I fine tune the changing by adjusting the gear cable at the deraileur end.
I bought PC disc in April this year. It grinds and clatters just as described. It stubbornly refuses to change gear down especially when going up hills when lower gear is most needed. 50 cycles suggested I lubricate gear change cable. This had no effect.
After reading these I turned bike upside down and cleared all sprockets and chain with engine degreaser. Then lubricated everything with silicon spray grease. This helped a lot but it is still a bit noisy and gear change is still hesitant.
As stated by others it runs perfectly with power off. Course I did not spend two grand on electric bike to cyle without power! Rather disappointing.
After reading these I turned bike upside down and cleared all sprockets and chain with engine degreaser. Then lubricated everything with silicon spray grease. This helped a lot but it is still a bit noisy and gear change is still hesitant.
As stated by others it runs perfectly with power off. Course I did not spend two grand on electric bike to cyle without power! Rather disappointing.
Denbol have you tried getting it into a bike shop for them to have a look?
I had a persistent issue with my pro connect which a chap at the Fred Baker shop in Bristol fixed within 10 minutes for a fiver. Once he got it up and pedalling he could see things which simply went over my head
I had a persistent issue with my pro connect which a chap at the Fred Baker shop in Bristol fixed within 10 minutes for a fiver. Once he got it up and pedalling he could see things which simply went over my head
Hi Walkerman,
Just got back from our short break to Bath. With my 'fix' bike rode fantatically. My wife on her new Agattu and me on my new PC covered 30 miles along the Kennett & Avon Canal to Bradford on Avon and back. Also, covered another 30 mile round trip along the Bath to Bristol cycle path. Bike never slipped up once! Lots of fairly steep inclines around Bath and the bikes coped admirably.
My opinion is that chain just needs more tension.
Scott I did private email you - my order number is 5016 postcode is KT9 2RH
Rob
Just got back from our short break to Bath. With my 'fix' bike rode fantatically. My wife on her new Agattu and me on my new PC covered 30 miles along the Kennett & Avon Canal to Bradford on Avon and back. Also, covered another 30 mile round trip along the Bath to Bristol cycle path. Bike never slipped up once! Lots of fairly steep inclines around Bath and the bikes coped admirably.
My opinion is that chain just needs more tension.
Scott I did private email you - my order number is 5016 postcode is KT9 2RH
Rob
Last edited:
That other people have the same problem points to a design fault. Either kalkhoff should have used the proper shimano tensioner rather than the sturmey archer one or they miscalculated the chain length. Either way the only way of increasing the tension now is to shorten the chain but you should get the agreement From 50 cycles first. I cannot see any danger in shortening though.
Last edited:
I tried out the cable-tie 'fix' on my 14 mile commute today. It was improved but I could still hear some noise so I pulled on the cable-tie a bit more and it then seemed just right on my last few miles.
I think it has something to do with the Shimano guide wheel as this is what is being held back by the cable-tie. The guide wheel is spring loaded but must have been moving forward when pedalling under load as the rattling/pedal vibration did get even worse on full power.
It might be something to do with chain length as well because I had 50C fit a 16T rear sprocket and I don't know if they shortened the chain.
Well done for finding the 'fix' but I am not sure what to do next. Start removing chain links perhaps?
I think it has something to do with the Shimano guide wheel as this is what is being held back by the cable-tie. The guide wheel is spring loaded but must have been moving forward when pedalling under load as the rattling/pedal vibration did get even worse on full power.
It might be something to do with chain length as well because I had 50C fit a 16T rear sprocket and I don't know if they shortened the chain.
Well done for finding the 'fix' but I am not sure what to do next. Start removing chain links perhaps?
Hey roblee and others who have had a similar problem,
I had exactly the same issue with my pro connect 9G with rear derailleur (LX). Here is a link to my long post that is explaining the problem.
In fact, as Roblee, I discovered that the noise and rattling came from the chain slipping under load (no problem when motor is not engaged) on the jockey (idler arm pulley) that is after the motor sprocket. The problem also appeared right away with my new bike. I also felt it in the pedals. It became quickly worse so that chain started to jump off. I returned bike to my dealer. First visit did not give any result. The second time my bike was sent back to Germany for 2 months, because my dealer thought it is a motor issue. Although it is clearly a transmission problem and not a motor issue. The bike finally came back and it worked fine for first 200km or so, but after I lubricated the chain, the problem reappeared.
Therefore, not wanting to loose my bike for another 2 months, I started to solve the problem myself. And the solution is really simple, and every self-respecting bike shop and vendor should be able to do it in couple of minutes instead of selling these expensive bikes with what clearly appears to be a serial issue or sending bike back to Germa
I had exactly the same issue with my pro connect 9G with rear derailleur (LX). Here is a link to my long post that is explaining the problem.
In fact, as Roblee, I discovered that the noise and rattling came from the chain slipping under load (no problem when motor is not engaged) on the jockey (idler arm pulley) that is after the motor sprocket. The problem also appeared right away with my new bike. I also felt it in the pedals. It became quickly worse so that chain started to jump off. I returned bike to my dealer. First visit did not give any result. The second time my bike was sent back to Germany for 2 months, because my dealer thought it is a motor issue. Although it is clearly a transmission problem and not a motor issue. The bike finally came back and it worked fine for first 200km or so, but after I lubricated the chain, the problem reappeared.
Therefore, not wanting to loose my bike for another 2 months, I started to solve the problem myself. And the solution is really simple, and every self-respecting bike shop and vendor should be able to do it in couple of minutes instead of selling these expensive bikes with what clearly appears to be a serial issue or sending bike back to Germa
Solution to the rattling clicking noise with Agattus/ PC and other pedelecs
I accidentally submitted my post before finishing it.
So here is the solution for all who have suffered from this problem:
1. My first thought was that why don't the owners of the S (speed versions) pedelecs of Kalkhoff have the same issue. In the French forum I often visit, the people who complain about this issue are always the owners of the e-bike which speed is limited to 25 km/h (be it Kalkhoff or BH). No owner of S pedelec has complained about the problem. The only difference between C and S version is that the S version has 41T chain-wheel (instead of 35T on C pedelecs) and, more importantly 11-13T motor sprocket instead of 9T one on C pedelecs. So I bought the 41T chain-wheel and 11T motor sprocket and tried them without changing anything else (I did not change the chain length). It instantly solved the problem. No clicking sound and no jumping of the chain.
One would probably conclude that it is the chain length issue as with larger chain-wheel and motor sprocket, the relative length of the chain is reduced. However, then the chain should not jump on the smaller gears (larger rear cogs are engaged in smaller gears with derailleur) as the tension is higher. However, this was not the case as it jumped the same with all the gears. Moreover, to test my assumption, I even added 4 links to (from 132 to 136 total links) to my chain to make up the increase in motor sprocket and chain-wheel size. Again, no rattling and clicking noise in any gear and everything is smooth. If I inspect the system more closely, I can see that because of the bigger motor sprocket, the chain engages a bigger part of the idler arm pulley and the chain is not slipping, jumping under the load any more.
2. Lubricating the chain properly/professionally. Personally I think that the 9T motor sprocket is not well adapted (in US they sell the 11T and 41T version of the same bike) to the new Panasonic system and makes the chain to slip on the idler arm pulley if the chain is not in the perfect condition (after rain, some links are a bit stiff etc.) That explains why there is no problem whatsoever when the motor is not engaged. Therefore, if you do not want to fiddle with the motor sprocket and chain-wheel, you should lubricate your chain so that it is in perfect condition and as smooth as a new chain. It is not easy to do it for the particles tend to get inside the links with casual chain lubricating processes. This will accentuate the problem. Every time I lubricated my chain, the problem got worse. So, after some research, I bought Shop quality Finish Line chain cleaner and cleaned my chain with this. Then I let it dry over night and lubricated separately every joint as explained in Sheldon Brown's website with a wet lube that also contains some grease (Finish line cross country in my case). The I wiped off all the excess. That gave me the chain that is almost in the same condition as the one on the new bikes. And a miracle, even with original chain length and sprockets (9T motor and 35T chain-wheel), there is no clicking or rattling.
So, in conclusion, you have two solutions (or 3, if you consider roblee's one), either you change you motor sprocket and/or chain-wheel (to keep the same assisted cadence), or you lube and take care of your chain using professional methods/tools. I use them both at once because with 9T motor sprocket you only need some rain or a dusty road to have your chain slipping again on the idler pulley. And you do not have to be in illegality in doing so because if you change your rear cog or cogs (in case of derailleur) to the size that sets your maximum assisted speed to 25-27 km/h, everything is ok. For example, in case of derailleur, the smallest sprocket on the rear cog should not be smaller than 14T. In case of hub gears, you have to do the calculation yourself but it is easy to do and there are many calculators on the web. There is also a possibility to reduce your chain length, but, in principle, it will only work with hub gear versions and not with derailleur ones.
What amazes me is that my bike was taken back to Germany for 2 months in order to have my chain properly lubricated. And of course nobody communicated to me that this was the case because that would put the dealer (the biggest kalkhoff dealer in France) in shame. Nobody also communicates the fundamental weakness of the transmission of the 9T motor sprocket, although, as described above, there are alternative, more robust solutions adopted by Kalkhoff themselves on they speed bike line. I you adjust the size of you chain-wheel/rear cog(s) accordingly, you would still remain with the same assisted cadence/maximum speed with 25 km/h versions (C or Agattu line). It makes me wander about the quality of German engineering, otherwise very reputed. I also hope the technicians and dealers in UK are better than those in France and do not send the bike back to Germany with this issue that even I, an amateur e-biker, could solve with some common sense. Before I buy my next e-bike, I will weigh my options much longer and it is not sure it will be a Kalkhoff.
Best,
Vaasa
I accidentally submitted my post before finishing it.
So here is the solution for all who have suffered from this problem:
1. My first thought was that why don't the owners of the S (speed versions) pedelecs of Kalkhoff have the same issue. In the French forum I often visit, the people who complain about this issue are always the owners of the e-bike which speed is limited to 25 km/h (be it Kalkhoff or BH). No owner of S pedelec has complained about the problem. The only difference between C and S version is that the S version has 41T chain-wheel (instead of 35T on C pedelecs) and, more importantly 11-13T motor sprocket instead of 9T one on C pedelecs. So I bought the 41T chain-wheel and 11T motor sprocket and tried them without changing anything else (I did not change the chain length). It instantly solved the problem. No clicking sound and no jumping of the chain.
One would probably conclude that it is the chain length issue as with larger chain-wheel and motor sprocket, the relative length of the chain is reduced. However, then the chain should not jump on the smaller gears (larger rear cogs are engaged in smaller gears with derailleur) as the tension is higher. However, this was not the case as it jumped the same with all the gears. Moreover, to test my assumption, I even added 4 links to (from 132 to 136 total links) to my chain to make up the increase in motor sprocket and chain-wheel size. Again, no rattling and clicking noise in any gear and everything is smooth. If I inspect the system more closely, I can see that because of the bigger motor sprocket, the chain engages a bigger part of the idler arm pulley and the chain is not slipping, jumping under the load any more.
2. Lubricating the chain properly/professionally. Personally I think that the 9T motor sprocket is not well adapted (in US they sell the 11T and 41T version of the same bike) to the new Panasonic system and makes the chain to slip on the idler arm pulley if the chain is not in the perfect condition (after rain, some links are a bit stiff etc.) That explains why there is no problem whatsoever when the motor is not engaged. Therefore, if you do not want to fiddle with the motor sprocket and chain-wheel, you should lubricate your chain so that it is in perfect condition and as smooth as a new chain. It is not easy to do it for the particles tend to get inside the links with casual chain lubricating processes. This will accentuate the problem. Every time I lubricated my chain, the problem got worse. So, after some research, I bought Shop quality Finish Line chain cleaner and cleaned my chain with this. Then I let it dry over night and lubricated separately every joint as explained in Sheldon Brown's website with a wet lube that also contains some grease (Finish line cross country in my case). The I wiped off all the excess. That gave me the chain that is almost in the same condition as the one on the new bikes. And a miracle, even with original chain length and sprockets (9T motor and 35T chain-wheel), there is no clicking or rattling.
So, in conclusion, you have two solutions (or 3, if you consider roblee's one), either you change you motor sprocket and/or chain-wheel (to keep the same assisted cadence), or you lube and take care of your chain using professional methods/tools. I use them both at once because with 9T motor sprocket you only need some rain or a dusty road to have your chain slipping again on the idler pulley. And you do not have to be in illegality in doing so because if you change your rear cog or cogs (in case of derailleur) to the size that sets your maximum assisted speed to 25-27 km/h, everything is ok. For example, in case of derailleur, the smallest sprocket on the rear cog should not be smaller than 14T. In case of hub gears, you have to do the calculation yourself but it is easy to do and there are many calculators on the web. There is also a possibility to reduce your chain length, but, in principle, it will only work with hub gear versions and not with derailleur ones.
What amazes me is that my bike was taken back to Germany for 2 months in order to have my chain properly lubricated. And of course nobody communicated to me that this was the case because that would put the dealer (the biggest kalkhoff dealer in France) in shame. Nobody also communicates the fundamental weakness of the transmission of the 9T motor sprocket, although, as described above, there are alternative, more robust solutions adopted by Kalkhoff themselves on they speed bike line. I you adjust the size of you chain-wheel/rear cog(s) accordingly, you would still remain with the same assisted cadence/maximum speed with 25 km/h versions (C or Agattu line). It makes me wander about the quality of German engineering, otherwise very reputed. I also hope the technicians and dealers in UK are better than those in France and do not send the bike back to Germany with this issue that even I, an amateur e-biker, could solve with some common sense. Before I buy my next e-bike, I will weigh my options much longer and it is not sure it will be a Kalkhoff.
Best,
Vaasa
Hi Scott,
It clearly seems from you prompt replies and you help suggestions that you have a very good service indeed. So do not take my post personally. But I still maintain that the issue at hand might be a fundamental weakness with a 9T motor sprocket systems. Even flecc suggests as much in one of his posts. If you only switch the 9T sprocket to the 11T one, all the slipping and rattling disappears instantly. And this without even having to clean and lube the chain professionally (that most people do not know how to do). Therefore, as you can see, most of my post is dedicated to give the solution to the people with the same issue. And why I took my bike back to the dealer is because I really thought them to be of much higher quality as they are the biggest one in France and Paris region. And I only became technical after having my bike returned to me (twice) only to have the issue to reappear. It took me almost a year to figure it all out. That is why I'm sharing it here. Now that my issue is fixed, I can attest that Kalkhoff is a very good electric bike indeed. However, that does not make up the lost time I spent on finding the solution to this issue that appears to be a serial weakness of this type of bikes
Best,
Vaasa
It clearly seems from you prompt replies and you help suggestions that you have a very good service indeed. So do not take my post personally. But I still maintain that the issue at hand might be a fundamental weakness with a 9T motor sprocket systems. Even flecc suggests as much in one of his posts. If you only switch the 9T sprocket to the 11T one, all the slipping and rattling disappears instantly. And this without even having to clean and lube the chain professionally (that most people do not know how to do). Therefore, as you can see, most of my post is dedicated to give the solution to the people with the same issue. And why I took my bike back to the dealer is because I really thought them to be of much higher quality as they are the biggest one in France and Paris region. And I only became technical after having my bike returned to me (twice) only to have the issue to reappear. It took me almost a year to figure it all out. That is why I'm sharing it here. Now that my issue is fixed, I can attest that Kalkhoff is a very good electric bike indeed. However, that does not make up the lost time I spent on finding the solution to this issue that appears to be a serial weakness of this type of bikes
Best,
Vaasa
Hi Scott, with reference to your reply to Vassa. All I would like to say is that I emailed you about my problem and you said you would give me a call. I've sent you a private message with my details but I'm still waiting. Bike is still running well with cable ties attached but this shouldn't be neccessary, should it? For a bike costing £50 under £2000.00 it really is not satisfactory. Just to reiterate the bike was delivered on the 1st July and started playing up after just 120 miles.
Last edited:
Vassa thank you for your helpful posting.
I have posted several times about this problem which I have on my Feb 2011 PC Disc hoping that someone would come up with an explanation/solution.
I know that 50C staff regularly read this website and I would have liked them to join in with helpful comments.
I have now notified 50C officially by email that I would like them to sort the problem out under warranty.
It is a good quality bike and shouldn't be having a problem like this.
My chain has been kept clean and regularly oiled so that isn't the problem.
I have posted several times about this problem which I have on my Feb 2011 PC Disc hoping that someone would come up with an explanation/solution.
I know that 50C staff regularly read this website and I would have liked them to join in with helpful comments.
I have now notified 50C officially by email that I would like them to sort the problem out under warranty.
It is a good quality bike and shouldn't be having a problem like this.
My chain has been kept clean and regularly oiled so that isn't the problem.
Scott
You seem to think it is just 'noise'
If you had taken the time to read all the posts about this you would have seen that it is about pedal vibration / slipping sprockets and that the people concerned have spent considerable time investigating the matter.
I would have prefered it if you had given some helpful advice instead of your attempt to trivialize it with your comment 'Noises are not usually covered under warranty'
As well as in posts, on my website maintenance page I have the following:
An additional advantage of using the 11 tooth sprocket is that the consistency of the chain drive over the sprocket is much improved, there being much less chance of drive slipping problems as well as less sprocket wear.
However, there is another aspect to all this, the power changes made over time by Panasonic. You may have seen thread will posts from Tillson and Kenny who are extremely satisfied with their Pro Connects, both dating from 2008. Originally the high power mode on these units was 1.3 times rider input, but that was later changed to 1.5 times and on the latest unit is 2 times. Since you've remarked on how the problem is related to the power level you choose, you can see how older units will be less prone to a problem anyway, regardless of chainwheel and motor sprocket size.
It's also relevant that the original unit, which used the smaller chainwheel but had a 14 tooth motor sprocket, suffered no problems of this kind, indicating that the motor sprocket size is the more important element.
Yes, as I have said, my Pro Connect / Panasonic motor has not experienced any such problems and is still utilising the same set of sprockets and chain after 9000 miles. The 9 tooth motor sprocket is showing surprisingly little wear, whereas the 18 tooth rear sprocket and chain wheel do look very second hand.
I tend to use my bike in low assist mode most of the time, which I think is 1:0.5? But, on the occasions that I use 1:1.3, the bike still rides smoothly and quietly.
Maybe 1:2 is getting towards the limit for this principle of power delivery, especially with a 9 tooth sprocket.
(My 1000th post by the way! I wonder how long that adds up to sat at a keyboard? 1/18.255 th of the time flecc has spent there I suspect)
Congratulations Tilson on your 1000th post.
My total for four years wouldn't even give me senior status under the old forum rules
My Pro Connect S has a maximum assist of 1.5 times rider input. This is plenty for me and I guess most people. I also generally use the lower modes and save the high for really steep hills.
I wouldn't thank you for the latest high mode of times 2. Range is much more important than speed to me.
My drive system has never caused any problems or slip....In fact I've never even taken off the protective case to clean the drive sprockets and just give the chain a spray of motorcycle chain lube now and again.
My total for four years wouldn't even give me senior status under the old forum rules
My Pro Connect S has a maximum assist of 1.5 times rider input. This is plenty for me and I guess most people. I also generally use the lower modes and save the high for really steep hills.
I wouldn't thank you for the latest high mode of times 2. Range is much more important than speed to me.
My drive system has never caused any problems or slip....In fact I've never even taken off the protective case to clean the drive sprockets and just give the chain a spray of motorcycle chain lube now and again.
Those were the days, Juniors, Seniors and Gurus. Life was simple back then, everyone knew their place.My total for four years wouldn't even give me senior status under the old forum rules
Last edited:
I would be surprised if the re-design of the chain wrapper/guide has not contributed to the problem. It is now a fixed unit and all the tension is provided by the derailleur or chain tensioner on the alfine hub. However my bike doesn't have any problems and has the fixed chain wrapper.
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
