Private E Scooters to be Legalised

[soundwave]

technically every diy bike that you can go in to the settings and change the speed limit is illegal as with my bosch bike there is no way to do this even with the dealers software.

Derestriction, ‘off-road’ switches or modes and dongles

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (continuous rated power above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

but the police just dont care never have let alonr know the kaw on these things anyway

 

[guerney]

I see. I'm very much hoping for a change in the law regarding throttles, as I struggle a lot with hill starts, or setting off quickly at the entry to roundabouts or crossroads.

Not to get off topic, but am I right in saying that 15mph throttles on DIY ebikes are also illegal, just as they are on store-bought bikes? What if some of the electric components of the conversion were manufactured before 2016 (perhaps meaning that grandfather rights could come into play)? I've read some posts on here that have implied that throttles on DIY conversions are legal, although its a bit confusing. This is of interest to me, as I've recently converted my mountain bike to electric. My bike has a throttle which I've currently deactivated.

I too miss my (lever style) throttle, but this recent post by @Woosh has got me thinking about reconnecting it:

Does anyone have Delphi?

I'm posting this here because this is probably the most visited part of the forum. If anyone here has access to Delphi, please could you read and possibly respond to this post regarding editing the Open Source Code for Penov's Bafang Configuration Tool, to compile a version to attempt to enable...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

 

[flecc]

I see. I'm very much hoping for a change in the law regarding throttles, as I struggle a lot with hill starts, or setting off quickly at the entry to roundabouts or crossroads.

Not to get off topic, but am I right in saying that 15mph throttles on DIY ebikes are also illegal, just as they are on store-bought bikes? What if some of the electric components of the conversion were manufactured before 2016 (perhaps meaning that grandfather rights could come into play)? I've read some posts on here that have implied that throttles on DIY conversions are legal, although its a bit confusing. This is of interest to me, as I've recently converted my mountain bike to electric. My bike has a throttle which I've currently deactivated.

It'd highly unlikely the DfT will legalise fuly acting throttles on pedelecs since government policy to is to retain alignment with the EU in transport matters.

Grandfather rights only apply to complete manufactured pedelecs on the road before 1st January 2016.

Technically DIY pedelecs are not legal anyway, so for them the throttle question is academic. Fully acting throttles are illegal on pedelecs, that is beyond question. The law is very clear, when pedalling stops, motor power must also stop.

The following is the wording that allows pedelecs to be exempted from motor vehicle law:

"pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with
an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the
output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops
pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and
finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h"

So no pedalling, no power.

If you want to see all the minutiae of the pedelec law, see this link
.

 

[John_S]

It'd highly unlikely the DfT will legalise fuly acting throttles on pedelecs since government policy to is to retain alignment with the EU in transport matters.

Grandfather rights only apply to complete manufactured pedelecs on the road before 1st January 2016.

Technically DIY pedelecs are not legal anyway, so for them the throttle question is academic. Fully acting throttles are illegal on pedelecs, that is beyond question. The law is very clear, when pedalling stops, motor power must also stop.

The following is the wording that allows pedelecs to be exempted from motor vehicle law:

"pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with
an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the
output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops
pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and
finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h"

So no pedalling, no power.

If you want to see all the minutiae of the pedelec law, see this link
.

Thanks for this information. Is the legislation banning throttles completely unambiguous in that DIY conversions are definitely included in this law? I guess it doesn't matter anyway if DIY pedelecs are illegal on other grounds by default.

Do you know if there's a straigtforward process I could follow to make my DIY ebike legal (with a 15mph throttle)?

 

[flecc]

Thanks for this information. Is the legislation banning throttles completely unabimbuous in that DIY conversions are definitely included in this law? I guess it doesn't matter anyway if DIY pedelecs are illegal on other grounds by default.

Do you know if there's a straigtforward process I could follow to make my DIY ebike legal (with a 15mph throttle)?

I answered these in a later post in the Pedelec law thread I linked you to, but to save you searching, I've extracted the relevant passage below:

Pedelec regulations are specifically for manufacturers in various ways. As examples, the 1983/2015 EAPC regulation refers to manufacturer plating requirements, rather like the VIN number regulation on cars, we can't just invent our own.

And 168/2013 is the Two and Three Wheel Motor Vehicle Type Approval Regulation. Firstly only manufactured vehicles can be type approved since individually created motor vehicles have their own system, Single Vehicle Approval. The only reason 168/2013 comes into it is that it contains an exemption, ruling that legally compliant pedelecs are not subject to type approval and are therefore not motor vehicles in law. If we cannot have self created pedelecs type approved since such machines have Single Vehicle Approval, we cannot use that exemption, there's no "pick and mix" with laws.

Basically in the absence of any specific permission, individually created pedelecs are not legal on the roads, so being legally non existent they don't need to conform to the existing rules. However, where the law doesn't provide, tolerance is often practiced to deal with the omission. For example, between 2003 and 2015 at least 90% of all pedelecs on UK roads were illegal because of a legal mixup on maximum power. The DfT knew it, the police knew it but normally took no notice. On one occasion when a police officer tried to prosecute a rider, we intervened and got the DfT to first overrule the police, then issue a waiver applying to all GB police forces preventing them from prosecuting on that ground.

So with kits we assume tolerance applies and to show goodwill we comply to the existing rules for manufactured pedelecs, making it easy for the authorities to allow that tolerance. The DfT are far from dumb, they know what the position is and are happy to ignore it, just so long as we don't suddenly create a big spike in road accidents, embarrassing them. That tolerance is why during EU membership they created the 250LPM class referred to below to help us out, despite it being illegal in the EU.

Finally on twist and go, use of a throttle from a standstill while on board is technically illegal, unless you take the bike through Single Vehicle Approval as sub class 250LPM permitted to have the throttle. However, no-one is ever going to prosecute for that illegal use, just so long as you don't suddenly take off and mow someone down.

So there is no straightforward way to legally have a throttle, the only entirely legal way is to go through Type Approval as 250 LPM class.

Personally I'd say just fit one and stop worrying. Police etc are only concerned with unsafe breaches of the law, such as far higher assist speeds and much higher powers. Throttles hardly qualify as unsafe when all older pedelecs can have them and having them on new ones only needs an inspector to say it's OK without any modifications to the bike.

Having a throttle on a pedelec is a technical breach of the law, not in any way functionally important.
.

 

[John_S]

So there is no straightforward way to legally have a throttle, the only entirely legal way is to go through Type Approval as 250 LPM class.

Personally I'd say just fit one and stop worrying. Police etc are only concerned with unsafe breaches of the law, such as far higher assist speeds and much higher powers. Throttles hardly qualify as unsafe when all older pedelecs can have them and having them on new ones only needs an inspector to say it's OK without any modifications to the bike.

Having a throttle on a pedelec is a technical breach of the law, not in any way functionally important.

Thanks. That sounds like good advice. My main concern is if I was to get involved in an accident, and my bike was to be inspected. I assume the existence of a throttle could get me into legal trouble. I realize its very unlikely to happen, so perhaps its a risk worth taking.

 

[soundwave]

m8 crashed in to a metal barrier going 30mph pissed out of his head snapped the bikes frame and broke the barrier in half police took his bike but never got the batt as was stashed in a back pack and spent 2 weeks in hospital and got the bike back in the end pmsl.

 

[John_S]

I too miss my (lever style) throttle, but this recent post by @Woosh has got me thinking about reconnecting it:

Does anyone have Delphi?

I'm posting this here because this is probably the most visited part of the forum. If anyone here has access to Delphi, please could you read and possibly respond to this post regarding editing the Open Source Code for Penov's Bafang Configuration Tool, to compile a version to attempt to enable...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Interesting. So does this mean that the rules applying to twist-style throttles might not necessarily apply to lever-style throttles?

 

[flecc]

Thanks. That sounds like good advice. My main concern is if I was to get involved in an accident, and my bike was to be inspected. I assume the existence of a throttle could get me into legal trouble. It realize its very unlikely to happen, so perhaps its a risk worth taking.

You may be interested to know why the insistence on no throttles. Europe wide law like this is made up by committees, consisting of the relevant government representatives, relevent industries , police and safety organisations. Since this is a matter of powered two wheeler law, those present at the series of meetings included the moped, scooter and motorcycle industries.

It was always they who vigorously argued against pedelecs having throttles on spurious safety grounds, untested riders, no MOTs on the bikes etc. The argument was that for pedelecs to remain as bicycles, power should only come through pedalling.

Of course any mention of safety doubts meant the safety people like ROSPA backed them, and the civil service will always avoid anything that might be risky, so no throttles we are stuck with, mainly to suit the moped industry fearing loss of sales to pedelecs.
.

 

[flecc]

Interesting. So does this mean that the rules applying to twist-style throttles might not necessarily apply to lever-style throttles?

No, the law states power must be delivered by pedalling. Ergo no levers twistgrips etc allowed. Woosh's post does not legalise owners to use throttles.
.

 

[guerney]

Interesting. So does this mean that the rules applying to twist-style throttles might not necessarily apply to lever-style throttles?

We DIYers/Kit bike "Manufacturers" seem to inhabit a strange fuzzily defined legal umbra, within which there are no completely clear-cut definitions, therefore as far as I know... it's likely tomato/tomarto, in distinguishing between twist and go style throttles, level style throttles, button, voice, eyebrow raise, or any other style of throttle which activates the same kind of function to function. Best ask Woosh or Wisper.

 

[flecc]

We DIYers/Kit bike "Manufacturers" seem to inhabit a strange fuzzily defined legal umbra, within which there are no completely clear-cut definitions, therefore as far as I know... it's likely tomato/tomarto, in distinguishing between twist and go style throttles, level style throttles, button, voice, eyebrow raise, or any other style of throttle which activates the same kind of function to function. Best ask Woosh or Wisper.

Not so, the law is very clear and in no way ambiguous. The following is what permits a pedelec to avoid being classed as a motor vehicle:

"pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with
an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the
output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops
pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and
finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h"

No pedalling means no power. Any pedelec which permits the rider to have power without pedalling loses this exemption, so in law is a motor vehicle, with all that means.
.

 

[John_S]

Would it be legal to have a throttle limited to 4mph until you pedal, to help with starting off from a standstill? I read something suggesting that 4mph throttles are legal, but only in walk mode (i.e. you have to be physically off the bike).

 

[flecc]

Would it be legal to have a throttle limited to 4mph until you pedal, to help with starting off from a standstill? I read something suggesting that 4mph throttles are legal, but only in walk mode (i.e. you have to be physically off the bike).

Again technically correct in law, since it's been ruled in a test case that someone on or scooting a bicycle is not a pedestrian and it's the pedestrian controlled vehicle law that is concerned here.

That's the technicality, but no-one is ever going to challenge such a use of what a legal pedelec is equipped with. The real problem in many cases is that the walk alongside mode power provided is very weak, so not much help in getting off the mark.
.

 

[guerney]

The government has blinked, is playing for time:

Rental e-scooter trials to be extended until May 2024 | Autocar

Trial schemes are helping to inform future safety measures for private e-scooters

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

I had spotted this chap a few months ago, giving his daughter a lift on his electric scoooter. Now his missus has one too. Much cheaper than a family car, but extremely unsafe. Maybe she's supervising? She'd be healthier walking, cycling, or running.

They trundled along and caught me up during my interminable wait staring at the lights.

E-escooters are dangerous for absolutely everyone using pavements, roads and paths! The government's plan to legalise them is stupid!

 

[guerney]

Moment a reckless e-scooter rider ploughed straight into a 4x4 car

A careless e-scooter rider (pictured left) recklessly slammed into a car in Watford, Hertfordshire. No one appeared to be injured in the collision on 6 July. .

www.dailymail.co.uk