Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[Ghost1951]

This shows how government misinformation works. Every person I know, who has direct dealings with them, says they're too expensive and don't provide enough heat unless you spend a fortune on electricity to keep them running day and night, yet when you do a Google search, every "authoritative source" says how fantastic they are and how much money they save. That article I linked above shows how those dealing in fuel poverty have deep concerns over them, and see this extract below from Energy Action Scotland annual paper on fuel poverty monitoring, where they say people are cancelling installations after advice from the council:

"Moving towards a low-carbon heating technology can therefore result in a greater level of everyday affordability pressures as well as a high upfront cost. Several CfE respondents discussed the implications of this for fuel poor households both now, and in the future. For example, one English local authority described how they “advise customers about the running costs of switching to low-carbon heating”, but that “this has led to a number of aborted jobs as it is not cost effective for the householder to switch from gas to a heat pump.” A charity working directly with fuel poor households across England also told us that “we are experiencing difficulties in trying to move people from gas to electric heating due to the unaffordability of electric.” Others described situations such as those in Astrid’s story (below), where very vulnerable households had been promised an equivalence in running costs with their previous system ahead of an installation, only for the reality to be very different. While ongoing research such as BEIS’s Electrification of Heat demonstrator is attempting to establish the conditions in which electric heating can be cost competitive with gas, it is evident that the running costs of electric systems are a major barrier to moving fuel poor households towards low-carbon heating"

https://www.nea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/0000_NEA_Fuel-Poverty-Report-and-Exec-Summary_v2.pdf

That snivelling wretch Miliband was on the BBC Today Programme on Thursday morning and told an outright lie about why UK electricity prices were so high - especially for industry. He said it was because we use so much fossil fuel. The interviewer pretty much let him get away with this lie which he got away with more than once. Miliband said that other European nations had lower electricity prices because they used less fossil fuel.



The problem is that countries such as Greece whose electricity price is about a third less than ours (23 Euro cents per Kilowatt hour versus UK's price of 36 Euro cents per kilowatt hour) and Poland with well over 70% of its power coming from fossil energy, mostly coal, charges its people 23 Euro cents per kilowatt hour.

MILIBAND IS FKING LIAR!! He persists in babbling total falsehoods to the people of this country and he consistently manages to get away with this without challenge.

DON'T LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS. He will lie and look you straight in the eye. You can be sure that ANYTHING Miliband says about energy cost is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

Electricity prices in the UK are high because we allow a system of power generators bidding to put power into the grid and they all get paid the price of the last little bit put in by the most expensive bidder which these days is always GAS and it is the most expensive, partly because - wait for it - THE GOVERNMENT IMPOSE A CARBON TAX ON THEM FOR EVERY MEGAWATT OF GAS THEY BURN, of £65 per tonne of carbon emitted.

Gas with the shortage caused by the Russian invasion is expensive enough without imposing extra charges on its use through arbitrary carbon taxes.

Worse still eco-loons like Miliband - who can't even eat a bacon sandwich without looking like a Komodo Dragon trying to swallow a deer, is also considering taxing your gas more highly to force people to heat their homes and hot water with electricity which is currently three times as expensive as gas per kilowatt hour. (see saneagle's comments above).

I don't know what kind of contracts you lot are on but I am currently paying 6.3 pence per kilowatt hour for gas and 23.51 pence per kilowatt hour for electricity almost four times as much cost for the same amount of heat energy. I know that I am going to use to heat my water and my radiators - and it won't be electricity unless the bas tards artificially put up the price of gas WHICH THEY WILL DO IF THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, in pursuit of pointless net zero targets introduced by that witch Theresa May. They are already talking about doing this, and Miliband - the eco-fanatic will lead the charge - lying to you as he does it, and grinning like a mad ogre as he tells you an outright lie.



Why do I say the UK net zero targets are pointless?

Because while the REALLY big emitters are increasing their emissions - China, India, Russia, and the rest, our sacrifice as the 1% c02 emitter, is pointless. We will ruin what industry we have left and gain nothing but poverty, unemployment, and misery. Remember, we are not just talking about our own personal family power bills, we are talking about whether any of our manufacturing industry can continue when they are charged such outlandish prices. Remember POLITICIANS DID THIS TO US. MAY did this to us, Johnson did this to us, Sunac did this to us and Miliband is about to make it MUCH worse. Meanwhile, China and the rest of the carbon hogs will carry on as usual.

WE LET THEM FK US OVER TIME AND AGAIN.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/how-is-eu-electricity-produced-and-sold/#:~:text=The%20electricity%20mix%20differs%20significantly,%25%20to%20less%20than%2015%25

.

Who pays the most and least for electricity and gas across Europe?

Residential end-user electricity and gas prices vary widely across European capitals. When adjusted for PPS, country rankings shift significantly.

www.euronews.com

 

[soundwave]

20231015 1401551

www.youtube.com

 

[soundwave]

transformers

 

[Woosh]

That snivelling wretch Miliband was on the BBC Today Programme on Thursday morning and told an outright lie about why UK electricity prices were so high - especially for industry. He said it was because we use so much fossil fuel. The interviewer pretty much let him get away with this lie which he got away with more than once. Miliband said that other European nations had lower electricity prices because they used less fossil fuel.

View attachment 62951

The problem is that countries such as Greece whose electricity price is about a third less than ours (23 Euro cents per Kilowatt hour versus UK's price of 36 Euro cents per kilowatt hour) and Poland with well over 70% of its power coming from fossil energy, mostly coal, charges its people 23 Euro cents per kilowatt hour.

MILIBAND IS FKING LIAR!! He persists in babbling total falsehoods to the people of this country and he consistently manages to get away with this without challenge.

DON'T LET HIM GET AWAY WITH THIS. He will lie and look you straight in the eye. You can be sure that ANYTHING Miliband says about energy cost is a TOTAL FALSEHOOD.

Electricity prices in the UK are high because we allow a system of power generators bidding to put power into the grid and they all get paid the price of the last little bit put in by the most expensive bidder which these days is always GAS and it is the most expensive, partly because - wait for it - THE GOVERNMENT IMPOSE A CARBON TAX ON THEM FOR EVERY MEGAWATT OF GAS THEY BURN, of £65 per tonne of carbon emitted.

Gas with the shortage caused by the Russian invasion is expensive enough without imposing extra charges on its use through arbitrary carbon taxes.

Worse still eco-loons like Miliband - who can't even eat a bacon sandwich without looking like a Komodo Dragon trying to swallow a deer, is also considering taxing your gas more highly to force people to heat their homes and hot water with electricity which is currently three times as expensive as gas per kilowatt hour. (see saneagle's comments above).

I don't know what kind of contracts you lot are on but I am currently paying 6.3 pence per kilowatt hour for gas and 23.51 pence per kilowatt hour for electricity almost four times as much cost for the same amount of heat energy. I know that I am going to use to heat my water and my radiators - and it won't be electricity unless the bas tards artificially put up the price of gas WHICH THEY WILL DO IF THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT, in pursuit of pointless net zero targets introduced by that witch Theresa May. They are already talking about doing this, and Miliband - the eco-fanatic will lead the charge - lying to you as he does it, and grinning like a mad ogre as he tells you an outright lie.

View attachment 62952

Why do I say the UK net zero targets are pointless?

Green carbon tax on electricity from gas is only 1p per kWH, roughly 4% on the price you pay. UK CPS + UK ETS = £58 per tonne of carbon. One MWH emits 0.18t.
The problem we have is we don't produce enough electricity from renewables. Sweden is the example how to do it right.
I never liked Ed Miliband but on this, he is correct.

 

[MikelBikel]

 

[saneagle]

Here's a very good video about the psychology used on you by various sources. The real nitty gritty is in the second half, though the first half provides some of the grounding for it, so it's worth watching the whole thing. If you're wondering that you might have been had on something, this will give you a good idea about it, then you're going to kick yourself:

 

[saneagle]

For all you EVangelists, it's your lucky day. You can get a van to transport all your ebikes, go camping/touring or make your fortune doing Amazon deliveries. Electric vans are selling so well that they can cut the price and still make a profit. You can buy a brand new Renault Master, instead of £48,000 plus VAT - wait for it - run down and get your money out of the bank before they change their minds. You're not going to believe the price, and don't forget to send me a share of your profits for guiding you to this windfall. Are you ready? Sit down comfortably. Make sure you're not holding a cup of coffee or anything else that could be dangerous. Here it is. I can't write down the price because I'm shaking so much:

Auto Trader Vans - New and Used Vans For Sale

Find your next van with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used vans. Over 30,000 vans online. Simple, easy, quick!

www.autotrader.co.uk

 

[MikelBikel]

Yeah, what about Informed Consent?
What about a Referendum on it?
What about some.. Democracy?

 

[Woosh]

Yeah, what about Informed Consent?
What about a Referendum on it?
What about some.. Democracy?

Democracy is not the solution for most problems. If you need to save for your old age, would you ask your family for a vote? Most problems are better solved by people with specific expertise.

 

[saneagle]

Democracy is not the solution for most problems. If you need to save for your old age, would you ask your family for a vote? Most problems are better solved by people with specific expertise.

What about putting your family's lives at risk. Should they get a vote for that?

 

[Ghost1951]

Any energy you use for heating your house or working your fridge moves off into the sky and gets radiated into space, never to be see by us again.

You forgot something here...

It is certainly true that a lot of energy which arrives here when the sun warms the ground or the ocean, is then radiated back into space, but its form has changed a wee bit from the short wavelength white light, and ultra-violet energy that arrived from the sun. The re-radiated energy after the ground warms up, is in the form of infra red wavelength energy and that can be hindered from getting into space by certain kind of gasses - water vapour being one of them. If the earth did not have water and clouds, the temperature of the planet would be at least 30 degrees centigrade cooler than it is.

You will have noticed the way clouds moderate the coldness of winter nights and clear sky doesn't. On calm, clear winter nights, temperatures fall very fast because of what you described above - the infra red energy radiates into space and we never see it again - just as you say. But that doesn't happen when it is cloudy and we can all feel the difference.

Other gasses like methane, co2 and Nitrous Oxides, are also like that. They prevent the radiation and the gasses themselves warm up and keep the energy here in the atmosphere.

This as you well know is called 'the Greenhouse Effect'.



Over aeons of time there have been many factors which influence the mean temperature of the planet, such as the orbit of the planet around the sun and its inclination, but one of the big ones is CO2 content in the atmosphere, which has varied greatly depending on volcanic activity which has at times belched vast amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and another has been the amount of plant growth pulling co2 out of the air and locking it up in plant material and then getting buried in swamps when the plants and trees fell over.

Over the last couple of hundred years we have dug up and burned about 1.5 trillion tonnes of old plant carbon and put it into the atmosphere. Most of that has been done in the last eighty years or so. This will certainly have an effect on temperature. How much of a disaster this will be is not yet known. I disagree with some of the really wild statements made by eco loons, but it will have an impact. I tend to think our species is EXTREMELY adaptable and will make changes in the way we live and grow our food so I doubt it will be as bad as some claim.

To say it won't mean we have to make big changes is mad though. We certainly will do. I'm of the opinion that there are FAR too many people on the planet right now and that the numbers of humans will be vastly lower in the future - either because we control the population ourselves, or because nature starves the vast majority of us. I have no idea which is more likely.

 

[Woosh]

What about putting your family's lives at risk. Should they get a vote for that?

I have never knowingly put anyone at risk, least of all my family. But if I did, I will ask those concerned for their views.

 

[saneagle]

You forgot something here...

It is certainly true that a lot of energy which arrives here when the sun warms the ground or the ocean, is then radiated back into space, but its form has changed a wee bit from the short wavelength white light, and ultra-violet energy that arrived from the sun. The re-radiated energy after the ground warms up, is in the form of infra red wavelength energy and that can be hindered from getting into space by certain kind of gasses - water vapour being one of them. If the earth did not have water and clouds, the temperature of the planet would be at least 30 degrees centigrade cooler than it is.

You will have noticed the way clouds moderate the coldness of winter nights and clear sky doesn't. On calm, clear winter nights, temperatures fall very fast because of what you described above - the infra red energy radiates into space and we never see it again - just as you say. But that doesn't happen when it is cloudy and we can all feel the difference.

Other gasses like methane, co2 and Nitrous Oxides, are also like that. They prevent the radiation and the gasses themselves warm up and keep the energy here in the atmosphere.

This as you well know is called 'the Greenhouse Effect'.

View attachment 62981

Over aeons of time there have been many factors which influence the mean temperature of the planet, such as the orbit of the planet around the sun and its inclination, but one of the big ones is CO2 content in the atmosphere, which has varied greatly depending on volcanic activity which has at times belched vast amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and another has been the amount of plant growth pulling co2 out of the air and locking it up in plant material and then getting buried in swamps when the plants and trees fell over.

Over the last couple of hundred years we have dug up and burned about 1.5 trillion tonnes of old plant carbon and put it into the atmosphere. Most of that has been done in the last eighty years or so. This will certainly have an effect on temperature. How much of a disaster this will be is not yet known. I disagree with some of the really wild statements made by eco loons, but it will have an impact. I tend to think our species is EXTREMELY adaptable and will make changes in the way we live and grow our food so I doubt it will be as bad as some claim.

To say it won't mean we have to make big changes is mad though. We certainly will do. I'm of the opinion that there are FAR too many people on the planet right now and that the numbers of humans will be vastly lower in the future - either because we control the population ourselves, or because nature starves the vast majority of us. I have no idea which is more likely.

All energy that comes from the sun to our planet goes back into space. It's just a matter of time.

 

[soundwave]

 

[soundwave]

 

[Ghost1951]

All energy that comes from the sun to our planet goes back into space. It's just a matter of time.

It is quite interesting to look at the atmosphere and mean temperature of the two planets either side of Earth in the Solar System. They can tell us how a changed atmosphere, or the loss of one can change the temperature of a planet.

Venus, our near neighbour and almost our twin planet, at least in size, being nearer to the sun, should from its solar radiation, have a mean temperature of about 30c - about twice the current mean temperature of Earth, but it is MUCH hotter than that.

Mars is further away from the sun than Earth and if it had an atmosphere like ours, it would be at a mean temperature of about 5C, but it is vastly colder than that.

The two planets are VERY different than we would expect if the sun was the ONLY factor. Venus is a Hell planet with a surface temperature of 464 c and not what you would expect. Why?

It has a massive carbon dioxide filled atmosphere so dense that it has a surface pressure at 92 bar. The sun's radiation gets in heats the surface and the infra red radiation can't get out again. The temperature is way over that of molten lead.

Meanwhile - Mars which if it had a decent level of atmosphere like ours, would have liquid water. It did used to have it in the very distant past. Not any more. Four billion tears ago it had lakes, rivers, and seas, but it lost most of its atmosphere partly because it is small and has low gravity, and partly because its liquid iron core being small, cooled and solidified and the swirling, molten iron stopped generating a magnetic field so the sun's radiating solar wind was able to strip away the atmosphere into space.. It is now so thin that all its water evaporated away because of the low air pressure. Even today, orbiting probes can detect the Martian atmosphere being blown away from the planet when they are on the opposite side of Mars to the sun.

So atmospheres have a massive effect on how much heat is retained and how much radiates off into space. It is a matter of how dense the atmosphere is, and what gasses are in it, and in what proportion. Either side of us in the solar system we have planets which are a natural experiment in what happens when the atmosphere is changed.

On Mars, rovers and orbiters can see the bone dry lake beds and river gorges that show it was different billions of years ago. It is now a world of frozen relics of its past geology -bone dry, and yet you can see the water rounded pebbles in dry river beds, water based minerals, and the pattern of stratified layers of sedimentary rocks laid down under water - just like we see on earth.



The temperature on Mars is between -65C and - 85C.

Venus wasn't always a Hell planet. It got that way because of massive volcanism that poured huge amounts of co2 into its atmosphere and there was no way to take it out again. Earth constantly recycles carbon in its crustal rocks, burying it in the mantle when the crustal plates sink under one another. Just imagine how much co2 is incorporated into limestone (CaCo3) and buried in the earth's crust. It forms in the oceans from the shells of marine creatures and sinks to the bottom. Massive parts of the Alps are formed of limestone and related calcium type rocks, like Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Huge amounts of carbon have been extracted from our atmosphere by life of one sort or another which has captured and buried it over billions of years.

Now we are busy letting it out again by burning massive amounts of coal. In 2023, China alone burned 4.883 billion tonnes of coal. That made about 15.6 billion tonnes of co2. Each carbon atom is combined with 2 of oxygen.

So it isn't actually true that all of the energy striking a planet from the sun radiates back into space, at least not fast enough to maintain a constant steady temperature when you are adding heat retaining gasses like co2 and methane, and you account for the fact that the sun is constantly shining down on the planets and adding to the heat budget. If the sun went out for a while, then yes - all the heat would radiate away again, but if it is also being trapped at long wavelengths (Infra red) by a blanket of atmospheric gasses, the surface temperature will gradually rise, because not all of it is getting away. I used to have an insulated hot water tank in my house. If I added heat from the old immersion heater that was inside it, the temperature rose and stayed hot even when the power was off because the tank was insulated. If I added more insulation, the heat would be retained longer. That is what increased co2 does in the atmosphere.

 

[saneagle]

It is quite interesting to look at the atmosphere and mean temperature of the two planets either side of Earth in the Solar System. They can tell us how a changed atmosphere, or the loss of one can change the temperature of a planet.

Venus, our near neighbour and almost our twin planet, at least in size, being nearer to the sun, should from its solar radiation, have a mean temperature of about 30c - about twice the current mean temperature of Earth, but it is MUCH hotter than that.

Mars is further away from the sun than Earth and if it had an atmosphere like ours, it would be at a mean temperature of about 5C, but it is vastly colder than that.

The two planets are VERY different than we would expect if the sun was the only factor. . Venus is a Hell planet with a surface temperature of 464 c and not what you would expect. Why?

It has a massive carbon dioxide filled atmosphere so dense that it has a surface pressure at 92 bar. The sun's radiation gets in heats the surface and the infra red radiation can't get out again. The temperature is way over that of molten lead.

Meanwhile - Mars which if it had a decent level of atmosphere like oursm would have liquid water. It used to have it in the very distant past. Not any more. Four billion tears ago it had lakes, rivers, and seas, but it lost most of its atmosphere. It is now so thin that all its water evaporated away because of the low air pressure.

So atmospheres have a massive effect on how much heat is retained and how much radiates off into space. It is a matter of how dense the atmosphere is, and what gasses are in it, and in what proportion. Either side of us in the solar system we have planets which are a natural experiment in what happens when the atmosphere is changed.

On Mars, rovers and orbiters can see the bone dry lake beds and river gorges that show it was different billions of years ago. It is now a world of frozen relics of its past geology -bone dry, and yet you can see the water rounded pebbles in dry river beds, water based minerals, and the pattern of stratified layers of sedimentary rocks laid down under water - just like we see on earth.

View attachment 62983

The temperature on Mars is between -65C and - 85C.

Venus wasn't always a Hell planet. It got that way because of massive volcanism that poured huge amounts of co2 into its atmosphere and there was no way to take it out again. Earth constantly recycles carbon in its crustal rocks, burying it in the mantle when the crustal plates sink under one another. Just imagine how much co2 is incorporated into limestone (CaCo3) and buried in the earth's crust. It forms in the oceans from the shells of marine creatures and sinks to the bottom. Massive parts of the Alps are formed of limestone and related calcium type rocks, like Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Huge amounts of carbon have been extracted from our atmosphere by life of one sort or another which has captured and buried it over billions of years.

Now we are busy letting it out again by burning massive amounts of coal. In 2023, China alone burned 4.883 billion tonnes of coal. That made about 15.6 billion tonnes of co2. Each carbon atom is combined with 2 of oxygen.

So it isn't actually true that all of the energy striking a planet from the sun radiates back into space, at least not fast enough to maintain a constant steady temperature when you account for the fact that the sun is constantly shining down on the planets and adding to the heat budget. If the sun went out for a while, then yes - all the heat would radiate away again, but if it is also being trapped at long wavelengths (Infra red) by a blanket of atmospheric gasses, the surface temperature will gradually rise, because not all of it is getting away. I used to have an insulted hot water tank in my house. If I added heat from the old immersion heater that was inside it, the temperature rose and stayed hot even when the power was off because the tank was insulated. Atmospheres do the same if they are dense enough and contain the right kind of gasses.

Likewise with Venus, all the energy that lands on it from the sun ends up back in space, eventually.

 

[soundwave]

cosmic power

 

[Ghost1951]

Likewise with Venus, all the energy that lands on it from the sun ends up back in space, eventually.

But in the mean time, massive amounts of co2 added by volcanoes has made the temperature rise to way over that of molten lead. The fact that in another five billion years when the sun has finally consumed all its fuel and dies down to a n ember, Venus will re-radiate all its surface heat does not affect the short term situation in which it is hotter than even Mercury purely because of its atmosphere's insulating effect, when Mercury which is about twice as near the Sun as Venus is the cooler planet.

Mercury has no atmosphere, is 36 million miles from the sun and has a surface temperature of 430C. Venus has a dense carbon dioxide atmosphere, is nearly 68 million miles from the sun and has a surface temperature of 464C.

 

[AndyBike]

Where did you get that story from?

Im going to put in a wild speculation that Mike got it off conspiracy theorist gathering site.