Prices of the electricity we use to charge

[lenny]

 

[lenny]

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[Saracen]

This post started off as the prices of fuel, what do most posts now have to do with that, MODS ?

 

[lenny]

This post started off as the prices of fuel, what do most posts now have to do with that, MODS ?

 

[saneagle]

This post started off as the prices of fuel, what do most posts now have to do with that, MODS ?

When forum traffic is down, we all have to do a bit to increase engagement by provoking discussion through slipping in a bit of politics, sport or other controversial subject matter such as crank-drives are shite, expensive bikes are a waste of money, helmets are unnecessary, and things like that. Every rebuttal of statements you make increases the amount of advertising revenue the forum owners get, which keeps the forum going.

Feel free to introduce your own subject. Maybe start with " should it be allowed to shill for businesses, especially when they let you down on battery warranty", or "Now that I've figured crank-drives are not as good as I thought, when would be the time to switch to a hub-motor?", or better still, "Wales is brilliant because they have 20mph speed limits everywhere". They're only suggestions. I'm sure that you can think of your own controversial subjects.

 

[Ghost1951]

Back on topic. My electricity price is dropping from 23.354p per kilowatt hour to 21.280 per kilowatt hour on July 1st. Whoopee!! I can buy myself something posh and expensive now.....

The rip off standing charge is staying the same though - about a pound a day for power (gas and electricity) whether I am using any or not. This disincentivises saving power and unfairly moves costs towards people who use little, while favouring the hogs.

Meanwhile the current price paid to the generators at this moment is 6.596p per kilowatt hour. Even allowing for network costs, that 15 pence markup is a bit stiff I'd say.

See minute by minute costs and generating mix here: https://grid.iamkate.com/

 

[saneagle]

Back on topic. My electricity price is dropping from 21.354p per kilowatt hour to 21.280 per kilowatt hour on July 1st. Whoopee!! I can buy myself something posh and expensive now.....

The rip off standing charge is staying the same though - about a pound a day for power (gas and electricity) whether I am using any or not. This disincentives saving power and unfairly moves costs towards people who use little, while favouring the hogs.

The rip-off standing charge is so that they still make money from the guys with solar panels. It's going to go up a lot further yet.

 

[Ghost1951]

The rip-off standing charge is so that they still make money from the guys with solar panels. It's going to go up a lot further yet.

The crafty swine!

Octopus wrote an article in which they say they want to get rid of standing charges and put that money onto the unit rate. They claim that OFGEM won't let them.

source: https://octopus.energy/blog/energy-price-cap-april-2024/

Why are standing charges increasing?
Energy companies do not choose the standing charge costs, these are set by Ofgem and cover the cost of supplying energy to your home. You can find out a bit more about standing charges here.
At Octopus, we'd prefer to see standing charge costs moved into unit rate so that customers have more control over their energy bill costs, this will require policy reform which we are fighting for.

 

[saneagle]

The crafty swine!

For me, at your rates, my electricity cost would be approx £42.50 and standing charge of around £180 p.a. The present Ofgen cap on standing charge is £0.601, so plenty of room to increase yet. It's like timeshare holiday apartments, where they put up the maintenance cost every year until your free accomodation costs more than a 4-star hotel.

 

[Ghost1951]

For me, at your rates, my electricity cost would be approx £42.50 and standing charge of around £180 p.a. The present Ofgen cap on standing charge is £0.601, so plenty of room to increase yet. It's like timeshare holiday apartments, where they put up the maintenance cost every year until your free accomodation costs more than a 4-star hotel.

Yes - I don't spend much at all to be honest. My forecast at the new rates is about £825 a year for gas and electricity.

 

[lenny]

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[guerney]

46145 out of stock, but I can't wait for others to copy and improve the chemistry, lower cost so that I can build a cheap non-explodey sodium-ion ebike battery. My bike cares not about weight, but it takes exception to being on fire, understandably so. Hard to tell from the video what fully charged voltage of those cells is exactly - I'm wondering if I'd have to go 11s to prevent my BBS01B controller throwing a wobbly, at detection of substantially higher than 42V fully charged 12s. Also, how consistent is the chemistry of the cells? Can I get away with not using an active balancing BMS?

 

[Ghost1951]

There would need to be significant advantages to justify adopting a cell technology with half the energy density of Lithium.

I get the issue of how abundant and cheap sodium is. That might do it as lithium gets used up and more expensive. It is a pretty scarce element, but (as a crude judgement) likely doubling the size and weight of batteries for the same range looks to me right now (with little knowledge of them) a heck of a disadvantage.

Tell me why we should use them in weight and volume sensitive applications. Grid storage - great. Carrying them around with you - less than marvellous....

 

[AngeG]

Back on topic. My electricity price is dropping from 23.354p per kilowatt hour to 21.280 per kilowatt hour on July 1st. Whoopee!! I can buy myself something posh and expensive now.....

The rip off standing charge is staying the same though - about a pound a day for power (gas and electricity) whether I am using any or not. This disincentivises saving power and unfairly moves costs towards people who use little, while favouring the hogs.

Meanwhile the current price paid to the generators at this moment is 6.596p per kilowatt hour. Even allowing for network costs, that 15 pence markup is a bit stiff I'd say.

See minute by minute costs and full review here: https://verywell-uk.com/

This difference between the generation price and the final cost does raise questions.
But a reduction in the price of electricity is always nice)

 

[guerney]

There would need to be significant advantages to justify adopting a cell technology with half the energy density of Lithium.

I get the issue of how abundant and cheap sodium is. That might do it as lithium gets used up and more expensive. It is a pretty scarce element, but (as a crude judgement) likely doubling the size and weight of batteries for the same range looks to me right now (with little knowledge of them) a heck of a disadvantage.

Tell me why we should use them in weight and volume sensitive applications. Grid storage - great. Carrying them around with you - less than marvellous....

I really wouldn't mind a battery twice the weight, quite honestly a 10kg battery on the rear rack would be fine, it's withstood much more than that. Sodium-ion cells appear to be much more forgiving of the bad welds I'd be making, and with such high cycle life, safer when battery packs are disassembled and the cells inevitably are reused downstream, less polluting to manufacture and recycle. Personally speaking, I consider all that to be a good tradeoff. And they won't be such low power density for long. Without alternatives to lithium-ion batteries we're screwed. No wonder Musk is jumping planet. At this rate Bezo's dream of populating the moon and orbit to keep the Earth as a pristine nature reserve playground exclusively for the trillionaire class will never be realised unless... he engineers a more effective virus next time to kill everyone who doesn't have a well stocked private nuclear bunker. Yes, that's what happened in 2019, you heard it here first. Email jeff@amazon.com if you don't like it, he reads his emails. The final Tesla lithium-ion battery will be excreted by a robotic factory onto a desolate hot and dark unbreathable wasteland populated by a small smattering of in pain soon to be dead. Doomed I tell you, and so is that final Tesla battery. Therefore I'm all for soldium-ion batteries. I can't wait for them to be cheaply mass produced with consistent chemistries.

 

[Ghost1951]

I tried to understand this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

But found it heavy going. Should have worked a lot harder at school chemistry lessons. Mind you, had we been learning more about batteries, I probably would have done.

 

[Ghost1951]

This difference between the generation price and the final cost does raise questions.
But a reduction in the price of electricity is always nice)

Yes indeed, but to be fair, that was the price at a particular time on a particular day. The price paid to generators is variable depending mostly on how much wind and sun is available. When we get a cloudy, still day, the price paid to generators rockets. This encourages the gas turbine producers to open up the large pipes that feed their huge gas turbine generators. The price right now is nearly ten pence per kilowatt hour. Not much wind and sun quite low in the sky.

 

[saneagle]

I really wouldn't mind a battery twice the weight, quite honestly a 10kg battery on the rear rack would be fine, it's withstood much more than that. Sodium-ion cells appear to be much more forgiving of the bad welds I'd be making, and with such high cycle life, safer when battery packs are disassembled and the cells inevitably are reused downstream, less polluting to manufacture and recycle. Personally speaking, I consider all that to be a good tradeoff. And they won't be such low power density for long. Without alternatives to lithium-ion batteries we're screwed. No wonder Musk is jumping planet. At this rate Bezo's dream of populating the moon and orbit to keep the Earth as a pristine nature reserve playground exclusively for the trillionaire class will never be realised unless... he engineers a more effective virus next time to kill everyone who doesn't have a well stocked private nuclear bunker. Yes, that's what happened in 2019, you heard it here first. Email jeff@amazon.com if you don't like it, he reads his emails. The final Tesla lithium-ion battery will be excreted by a robotic factory onto a desolate hot and dark unbreathable wasteland populated by a small smattering of in pain soon to be dead. Doomed I tell you, and so is that final Tesla battery. Therefore I'm all for soldium-ion batteries. I can't wait for them to be cheaply mass produced with consistent chemistries.

I've had a 7kg battery on a rear rack nefore. The bike was almost unrideable. It was a normal size bike, though. Anyway, I can't see 10kg being much fun.

 

[guerney]

I've had a 7kg battery on a rear rack nefore. The bike was almost unrideable. It was a normal size bike, though. Anyway, I can't see 10kg being much fun.

I admit, it was a but tricky after stopping at traffic lights when my bike leant over with 18kg of veg plus 3.6kg battery on the rear rack, but CofG is low on my bike, so it doesn't have much effect on handling. Except when attempting very steep inclines at a 45 degree angle or more. Motor was game, but balance wasn't. I'd feel more likely to try balancing weight out by installing a second battery to run in parallel, centrally on the crossbar. I might even speculate about strapping two more parallel batteries either side on each front fork prong. What's the worse that could happen?

Clean and shiny, but my bike is better because it's Bafanged:

 

[Ghost1951]

I admit, it was a but tricky after stopping at traffic lights when my bike leant over with 18kg of veg plus 3.6kg battery on the rear rack, but CofG is low on my bike, so it doesn't have much effect on handling. Except when attempting very steep inclines at a 45 degree angle or more. Motor was game, but balance wasn't. I'd feel more likely to try balancing weight out by installing a second battery to run in parallel, centrally on the crossbar. I might even speculate about strapping two more parallel batteries either side on each front fork prong. What's the worse that could happen?

Cleaner, but my bike is better because it's Bafanged:

Maybe you could fashion some pannier boxes low down on the rear end to carry two NAion batteries, one each side. That would make up for the lost capacity pretty much and make a tolerably balanced bike. If you could lose another few kilos off your waist and ar se, all would be equalised.