Price of lithium batteries

[Leonardo]

I see here an article speaking about Mistral pedelecs with L-ion 36v 10Ah battery packs at less than £500 and sometimes on offer at £400 on eBay… I’m quite surprised about these prices: it seems me more the cost of a battery than the one of a pedelec!
Is lithium batteries price falling? And what about quality?
I also noticed that the 36v 15ah lithium battery of the French light motorbike e-Solex (the electric version of the old Velosolex) it is sold around 350 euros

 

[Miles]

e-Solex: the electric-powered Solex!
e-solex solex solexine

 

[flecc]

These low price ones are likely to be the older cobalt based designs. They have very good capacity to size ratios, but can also fail with an internal fire which can spread. That question mark on their safety probably applies more to the large cell bike batteries than the smaller celled laptop ones, though even with those there have been well publicised serious events.

My personal feeling is that low priced ones are likely to have the weakest quality control in manufacture and are therefore the ones to avoid. At least with dearer famous name ones there's a chance of comeback when things go wrong, as with the Sony recall where they are meeting entire costs at huge expense to the company. Minimal chance of that with ebay purchases of ersatz makes.

 

[Jason]

Battery prices

Flecc,

I think Leonardo is suggesting these prices are exorbitant, not low (i.e. you can buy a pedelec for less than a replacement battery). £400 to £500 for a battery equates to a lot of diesel for a small efficient car let alone a 100mpg moped...my calculations suggest I could do about 8000 careful miles in my wife's diesel mazda for that sort of money...would a lithium battery realistically last for 8000 miles of use?? It's a real problem in the pedelec argument.

Jason

 

[flecc]

I think you've misread Jason, the £499 and £590 mentioned in the article are complete bikes (Synergie Mistral and Powacycle Windsor/Salisbury). Leonardo is I'm sure commenting on the fact that includes Li-ion, meaning the battery price is very low compared with only a few months ago when a Li-ion option was much more expensive.

The dilemma you mention is still very real though, e-bike running costs are way higher than at first apparent, and never more so than with the newer battery technologies. I doubt if they'll get much better either.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Price of Lithiums? Depends whose fancy case......

Flecc,

I think Leonardo is suggesting these prices are exorbitant, not low (i.e. you can buy a pedelec for less than a replacement battery). £400 to £500 for a battery equates to a lot of diesel for a small efficient car let alone a 100mpg
moped...my calculations suggest I could do about 8000 careful miles in my wife's diesel mazda for that sort of money...would a lithium battery realistically last for 8000 miles of use?? It's a real problem in the pedelec argument.
Jason

I did not really consider the price/cost of an electric bike (as long as it was within budget). I was staggered by the price of the Torq/Sprint - until I began to check the relative specifications of the Powabyke, and realized it was, as always, 'you get what you pay for Mr. Dickens'.

My whole purpose in going 'electric' was simply to get back into cycling. I'd had the fully loaded tourer 'out in the great outdoors' experience. It was wonderful - heaven: until one came to that inevitable 1 in 10. Ultimately health and age became the dominant factor - even 4% or 5% was a struggle, even without the luggage.
We tried gas driven 2 stroke engines driving on the rear tyre. They were messy, noisy and, worst of all, unreliable. They were rubbish and I sold my bikes in a fit of pique and despair.
So for me there was no 'question of economy', no 'halo effect': it was just for plain fun.
So how about the price of Lithiums? 50Cycles want £250 for a 36V/10Ah battery that (it turns out) will do 28 miles for me on one charge and will possibly have 500 recharge cycles. So if one loses 10% of capacity each year, riding the bike 200 days a year gives a life of 500 x (28 x 87.5%) = 12,250 miles = 2.04p/mile.
Add the ridiculous cost of electricity at 8.83p/KwHr x [5hrs x (2 amps x 230 volts =)] 460 watts = 2.3 KwHrs x 8.83p = say 20p (it says 2 Amps on the charger, which in my calculation lasts for ever) = 0.7p/mile.
Total running cost = 2.74pence per Fun-mile.
I can smell the countryside!

My Car has a carbon footprint which is priceless but the direct running cost of it (54 mpg/diesel) is, I guess 10.44p/mile cheaper than I thought.

So lets hope the reliability of the Lithium Ion battery lives up to expectations.

Disabuse me of my euphoria, someone.

Peter

I'm going to hit the 'submit reply' button now which is when the spell-checker springs into action

 

[electric.mike]

Flecc,

I think Leonardo is suggesting these prices are exorbitant, not low (i.e. you can buy a pedelec for less than a replacement battery). £400 to £500 for a battery equates to a lot of diesel for a small efficient car let alone a 100mpg moped...my calculations suggest I could do about 8000 careful miles in my wife's diesel mazda for that sort of money...would a lithium battery realistically last for 8000 miles of use?? It's a real problem in the pedelec argument.

Jason

i think this is only relevant if your reason was to save money. my reasons did include saving money but not in such a simplistic equation, i have a 20 year old vw camper it can manage in town upto 18mpg. a clear difference i also want to save maintenance cost which at 20years old and 95000 miles need thinking about, i enjoy being out in the air but i don't enjoy pedalling,i have had 58years of real enjoyment out of this world and ime in the position now where i can relax and do things at a more leisurely pace, this allows me to be able to consider the environment a bit more.there are many reasons to buy electric bikes and even with expensive batteries in different circumstances they could be cost effective.but lets face it if every thing we did had to be cost effective life would be boring.
mike

 

[nigel]

Nigel

I dont
really use electric bikes to save money but still in the long run i do for me they are good fun and also helping with fitness i have no intrest in going to a gym but will ride miles to work and back and enjoy it and every journey i do and dont use the car saves me money i also have to leave a lot more early on my bike and my workmates think iam crazy doing 18 miles each way so bring on the the longer summer days wont have to worry about carrying lights for a while just turn that throttle and let the breeze blow NIGEL

 

[flecc]

So if one loses 10% of capacity each year,

Disabuse me of my euphoria, someone.

Peter

Sorry to oblige, but about 33% is forecasted as normal for capacity loss on Li-ion in one year for average usage in our climate. The only one I know of that's gone a full year has in fact lost just over 35%. Still perfectly usable of course, but indicating the capacity loss will be too severe to use beyond two years for many users, though those doing lots of short trips, shopping etc will not have a problem with that.
.

 

[Leonardo]

... the £499 and £590 mentioned in the article are complete bikes (Synergie Mistral and Powacycle Windsor/Salisbury). Leonardo is I'm sure commenting on the fact that includes Li-ion, meaning the battery price is very low compared with only a few months ago when a Li-ion option was much more expensive.

It is exactly as flecc says.

For istance, the 8ah 26v battery pack of the Swiss Flyer it is sold in Italy around 400£!

It is quite a particular battery back however (by Panasonic I think): 7+7 Li-Mg batteries each one 4ah 3,72v... may be to reduce chemical stress, shelf life problems or what?
Here is a photo:

 

[Jason]

Flecc and Leonardo

I stand corrected!

Jason

 

[flecc]

No problem Jason, I had to do a "double take" on that link webpage to be certain of their point, it wasn't particularly clear at first sight.
.

 

[Leonardo]

So please do excuse me for not having been clear