Possible conversion - is bike suitable and if so any likely limitations ?

[103Alex1]

Would appreciate some help with this. Been reading a lot of threads about conversion, quite a bit of which I have to admit has gone way over my head at this point. However, as a first step I have a donor bike and would like to establish whether it's likely to be suitable and if so whether any options should be ruled out to help narrow the scope a bit.

Another limiting factor is that I'm still learning my way around a bike mechanically (let alone anything too technical on the electronic front) so going to have to very much take this one step at a time. Don't want to jump in and make an expensive mistake as hoping to really get some use out of this next Spring / Summer.

I don't know the model or specification (it's several years old but used only once or twice). Fitted with 26" 1.75 MTB-style chunky tyres at the moment.

Must admit I'd rather have a bike with a lot more gears for unassisted riding but don't really have the money right now to consider buying one as well as doing the conversion.

No point trying to jam a system in that's disproportionate to the bike (only 7-gears) but hill climbing and range are both key considerations. Not fussed about throttles.

Just back from the West Country where the bike is still stored, as I couldn't fit it in the car with all the rest of the stuff we were bringing back this time. However, through the torrential downpours managed to take a few very 'night shots' in the garage which I hope are enough to make a start. Forgot to measure the frame in the rush to get away and din't manage a whole of bike shot rolleyes but hopefully it's possible to see enough to be of some help.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It looks very straight-forward to convert. You need a thumb throttle because of your gear-changers. You could fit a front, rear or mid-drive motor without problems. You have to decide how much power you want, how far you want to go and a budget so that you can determine exactly which components to get. That new 350w 36v GNG drive looks a strong contender, but no reports on it yet because it's too new:
36V350W/48V400W geared mid drive brushless kit
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - GNG Drive Gen2

 

[103Alex1]

It looks very straight-forward to convert. You need a thumb throttle because of your gear-changers. You could fit a front, rear or mid-drive motor without problems. You have to decide how much power you want, how far you want to go and a budget so that you can determine exactly which components to get. That new 350w 36v GNG drive looks a strong contender, but no reports on it yet because it's too new:
36V350W/48V400W geared mid drive brushless kit
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - GNG Drive Gen2

Apologies - am likely to have a huge load of very basic questions ! Like the look of a mid-drive kit .. is this a hub-drive kit and do I have to have that or are there crank-drive options which would work ? (I am used to pedalling to get the motor to engage ..); also could the gears be upped easily ?

When I tested it very briefly the brakes were a bit of a culture shock after my Agattu, which I think has Magura HS33 hydraulic rim brakes, and I'm a bit worried that the bike itself isn't up to a high-powered motor mechanically .... is this me being over-concerned ?

 

[Scimitar]

When I tested it very briefly the brakes were a bit of a culture shock after my Agattu, which I think has Magura HS33 hydraulic rim brakes, and I'm a bit worried that the bike itself isn't up to a high-powered motor mechanically .... is this me being over-concerned ?

<edit>
I see it's got V-brakes - you'll be fine. Just fit some older cantilever handlebar levers, especially to the front one and you'll wonder why you ever thought you'd need a better brake.

 

[RobF]

Doesn't the crank drive kit need brackets fashioning and brazing to the frame?

The OP declares himself a mechanical novice, so I'm wondering if a hub conversion would be a better idea.

I reckon we are about on the same level, knowledge-wise, and fitting a hub kit would be challenging enough for me.

Also, the donor bike looks cheap, if not cheerful.

It's a Raleigh, so won't be complete trash, but if the aim is to get a decent budget step through or ladies' ebike, what about a new whoosh?

They are only about £500 or £600 and the cheapest step-through got a good review on here from one of the more knowledgeable members.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Doesn't the crank drive kit need brackets fashioning and brazing to the frame?

No.

To fit the GNG unit, you only have to remove the bottom bracket assembly the same as you do with a hub-motor to fit the pedal sensor. The whole motor assembly is put in place and then you re-assemble the BB. It's easier to fit than a hub-motor, which requires the fabrication/procurement of torque arms and filing of the drop-outs.

I've ordered one of these GNG Gen2 units, so I should be able to report its performance next week. If you want to see how easy it is to fit I'll do a step-by-step photo guide.

 

[103Alex1]

The OP declares himself a mechanical novice, so I'm wondering if a hub conversion would be a better idea.

..

It's a Raleigh, so won't be complete trash, but if the aim is to get a decent budget step through or ladies' ebike, what about a new whoosh?

They are only about £500 or £600 and the cheapest step-through got a good review on here from one of the more knowledgeable members.

I'm not especially looking for a ladies' MTB. It just happens that the one that's sat in the garage was obtained so one of the ladies in the family could use it too - definitely would not go out and buy one by choice.

None of the cheaper bikes seem to have the range for the area I want to use it ... it's about 30 miles round trip to the nearest town of any size and it's fairly to severely hilly going down to the sea so they aren't going to be any good for touring, multi-use, etc. I definitely don't want to sit on a bike and press a throttle to "go" by choice either. Would rather ride it like a normal bike with matching of pedal effort times "X" if that is at all possible ...

Just diverting briefly, if I was going to be allowed to travel on trains without booking / loads of restrictions etc am also considering buying and converting a folder because the opportunities it would open up might justify the expense. However, the 20" wheels are far too small to allow carrying around any kit. This one caught my eye - is it a good contender for something which feels like a real bike but can also get round the (incredibly annoying) limitations of British Rail :

Cadenza XL | Dahon Global

Still doesn't have the extra gears I'd like for (assisted on the flat) pedalling / acceleration but it does look like a decent bike to begin with at least ...

 

[eddieo]

I and many others on here have saved a packet buying quality nearly new donor bikes secondhand...Cycling is like fashion and last years bike is last years fashion....Shop around and you will end u with a very nice e bike, far better then a ready made in most cases

 

[103Alex1]

I and many others on here have saved a packet buying quality nearly new donor bikes secondhand...Cycling is like fashion and last years bike is last years fashion....Shop around and you will end u with a very nice e bike, far better then a ready made in most cases

Offer obtained on the above for £450 (RRP £1,000) but only today. Is that still too much for this sort of thing ? Not fussed about it being brand new but like buying 2nd hand cars don't want to end up with someone else's wreck that's been tinkered with and I wind up having to replace parts / get fixed (especially the latter - labour in LBS round my parts is a fortune and you wind up feeling you may as well have bought something with a warranty if it ends up going in more than once or twice - my last bill for a first tune and swapping a rack was about £50 after a week-long wait to get an appointment).

 

[jhruk]

Just diverting briefly, if I was going to be allowed to travel on trains without booking / loads of restrictions etc am also considering buying and converting a folder because the opportunities it would open up might justify the expense. However, the 20" wheels are far too small to allow carrying around any kit. This one caught my eye - is it a good contender for something which feels like a real bike but can also get round the (incredibly annoying) limitations of British Rail :

Cadenza XL | Dahon Global

Still doesn't have the extra gears I'd like for (assisted on the flat) pedalling / acceleration but it does look like a decent bike to begin with at least ...

Whilst I wouldn’t disagree with your choice of 26" folder for getting around the railway company restrictions I wouldn’t dismiss a smaller wheeled folder for its lack of luggage capacity alone. They are capable of carrying just as much, if not more, than one with larger wheels. Although the rear panniers usually need to be rather smaller than for larger wheeled bikes there is far more room above the wheels to compensate, if necessary.

I regularly travel with two rear panniers and a rack pack on my 21gear Dahon, with a handlebar bag and front panniers for more capacity if needed :

Dahon1 Dahon2

And more is possible :

Brompton Touring

 

[morphix]

Would appreciate some help with this. Been reading a lot of threads about conversion, quite a bit of which I have to admit has gone way over my head at this point. However, as a first step I have a donor bike and would like to establish whether it's likely to be suitable and if so whether any options should be ruled out to help narrow the scope a bit.

Another limiting factor is that I'm still learning my way around a bike mechanically (let alone anything too technical on the electronic front) so going to have to very much take this one step at a time. Don't want to jump in and make an expensive mistake as hoping to really get some use out of this next Spring / Summer.

I don't know the model or specification (it's several years old but used only once or twice). Fitted with 26" 1.75 MTB-style chunky tyres at the moment.

Must admit I'd rather have a bike with a lot more gears for unassisted riding but don't really have the money right now to consider buying one as well as doing the conversion.

No point trying to jam a system in that's disproportionate to the bike (only 7-gears) but hill climbing and range are both key considerations. Not fussed about throttles.

Just back from the West Country where the bike is still stored, as I couldn't fit it in the car with all the rest of the stuff we were bringing back this time. However, through the torrential downpours managed to take a few very 'night shots' in the garage which I hope are enough to make a start. Forgot to measure the frame in the rush to get away and din't manage a whole of bike shot rolleyes but hopefully it's possible to see enough to be of some help.

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Unless you want a CST motor giving the freedom of 11T cassettes, why not order a PNP 7-spd 11T freewheel for the right gear range you want? I dont think you have to compromise your gears on a self-build with DNP freewheels... can't comment on the quality, but seem ok according to some users.. there's plenty of 11T gear ranges available to match your requirements and they fairly cheap.

 

[103Alex1]

No.

To fit the GNG unit, you only have to remove the bottom bracket assembly the same as you do with a hub-motor to fit the pedal sensor. The whole motor assembly is put in place and then you re-assemble the BB. It's easier to fit than a hub-motor, which requires the fabrication/procurement of torque arms and filing of the drop-outs.

I've ordered one of these GNG Gen2 units, so I should be able to report its performance next week. If you want to see how easy it is to fit I'll do a step-by-step photo guide.

That would be really great . Am I right in thinking this is a crank drive kit then ? Forgive my ignorance but I haven't riden many bikes other than my own... is this going to result in a bike which is riden like my impulse crank-drive Kalkhoff ? I was confused reading the links on the GNG site which seem to imply you can ride on throttle (presumably no pedalling unless you want to pedal) or without engagement of the motor at all (unassisted). Neither of those were like my current bike where the power is delivered in response to pedalling and if it works that way then why the need for a throttle ?

Offer obtained on the above for £450 (RRP £1,000) but only today. Is that still too much for this sort of thing ?

No rash moves made. Phew. Are bikes usually more than 50% off after Christmas ? Not wanting to pay more than 30-45% of RRP for a new donor ...

Whilst I wouldn’t disagree with your choice of 26" folder for getting around the railway company restrictions I wouldn’t dismiss a smaller wheeled folder for its lack of luggage capacity alone. They are capable of carrying just as much, if not more, than one with larger wheels. Although the rear panniers usually need to be rather smaller than for larger wheeled bikes there is far more room above the wheels to compensate, if necessary.

I regularly travel with two rear panniers and a rack pack on my 21gear Dahon, with a handlebar bag and front panniers for more capacity if needed :

Dahon1 Dahon2

And more is possible :

Brompton Touring

Wow - a real eye-opener. I guess there are a few things - I have an inexplicable dislike for folders though I've never riden one. They somehow don't seem like "real bikes" and I'm convinced they must be prone to falling apart or held together by willpower so drawn to one which looks like something I'm at least familiar with. I find even regular bikes inherently flimsy things - full of bits which don't stand up to rough and tumble / being riden very hard without needing tweaking, adjusting, fiddling with or replacing. All that can get a pain if you don't have time on your hands - which sometimes I don't. Plus fear of unknown quirks / limitations / constraints requiring expensive solutions to be discovered by trial and error only after parting with dosh (had a belly-full of all that in a mere 2 months with the Kalkhoff however much I love it !)...

Not drawn to small wheels for three other reasons - firstly, lack of a wide choice of tyres and anti-puncture tubes (limiting) and secondly small wheels by definition go slower than big ones for the same rotation. Finally not as easy to fix/get fixed/get parts for. So if I did opt to buy a folder, guess the preference would be for it not to need a load of elaborate innovative solutions to carry my stuff (preferably use the panniers etc. I already have for example as waterproof ones cost a fortune) and also not to feel / look like a "city folder".

Unless you want a CST motor giving the freedom of 11T cassettes, why not order a PNP 7-spd 11T freewheel for the right gear range you want? I dont think you have to compromise your gears on a self-build with DNP freewheels... can't comment on the quality, but seem ok according to some users.. there's plenty of 11T gear ranges available to match your requirements and they fairly cheap.

Still don't understand this freewheel thing, Morphix. What does it actually mean in laymans terms and why does it matter ? The interaction between gears and assistance really confuses me. The wheel on my current bike can be removed completely by sliding out from the dropouts after unclipping the brakes, detaching the gear cable and slipping off the chain. Is that what a freewheel means ?

Beginning to wonder if it would not just be easier to build the whole bike using the components you actually want - finding things aren't right and changing stuff piecemeal seems to be expensive and that way you can put in the gears you want, brakes you want sensors you want and pedals you want etc. from the word go provided you have a frame to kick things off.

Is that a crazy thought and is it any harder in reality than actually fitting the electrics and trying to maintain one ? I'm fine with all the stuff someone's actually shown me but find it difficult to work from instructions largely due to terminology and generic "illustrations" rather than tailored to the bike I'm actually looking at. Working off proper representative pictures / vids is much easier but you so seldom get these ! Would you really get a better end result than actually buying a ready-made bike and save any money for all the work involved ? Guess what I'm aspiring to own is a £2.5-3.5k converted bike with the oomph of a sports bike, range of a tourer, capable of going off-road on easy trails, that looks good and has a folding option for sub-£700 if truth be told - ideally by mid-February latest The "half-way houses" so often leave me cold feeling I've spent a lot of real money and got something which isn't worth it or doesn't quite deliver enough on any front to love.

Each time I look at a "normal" bike without a load of holes drilled in the frame hiding the workings it seems there are a pretty limited number of "bits" which actually make it up .... and if you've built something from grass roots then if anything goes wrong likelihood is you can fix it - something which I am really struggling with on my current (very beautiful but somewhat 'mystical' creation). It's mainly the 'suspension' which scares me as "forks" seems to be a black hole of dosh to service and there's mention of expensive-sounding tools and budget-demolishing in one fell swoop bike shop labour

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The gearing's important because often, when you build from a kit, you end up with too low gearing, so you can't pedal fast enough to keep up with the motor. Even with a 250w motor, you'll most likely be going faster than your Kalkhoff.

There's two types of gearsets that go on the back wheel: Free-wheels that normally only go to 14 teeth on top gear, although you can get one from Cyclezee with 11T top gear; Cassettes are easy to get with 11T top gear. Most hub-motors can only be fitted with free-wheels. The Bafang CST motor is one of the few that has the spline for a cassette. If you have 14T top gear on the back, you need at least 52T on the front chain-wheel to be able to pedal comfortably over 15mph.

Most DIY kits have throttles, so you can always get full power on demand. Pedal sensors often give only maximum power, or they give power in relation to cadence, which is even worse. Some kits have a control panel, which allows lower power from the pedal sensor to make it more useable. These kits are often more expensive.

The main advantages of converting a bike are to get higher speed or better climbing power, or if you already have a bike that you like, but want to make it electric, otherwise a ready-made bike might be a better solution. It may well be easier to upgrade the power or speed of an existing electric bike than to start from scratch.

I've never had to do any maintenance to forks other than initial pumping up and setting the damping, so nothing to worry about there. Rear suspension needs to be pumped up more often, but it's no different to pumping up your tyres. Cheap suspension doesn't need to be pumped up.

Removing the wheel with a rear hub-motor is the same as your present bike except you might have to undo one connector to the motor, depending on how you wired it. Cassette or free-wheel is the same.

To meet your criteria: a 20aH 36v battery £250; Bafang BPM rear kit £200; free-wheel £25; rack and battery installation and other bits about £50. That's about £500 plus donor bike. It helps a lot to have a clear vision of what the finished bike will look like. How and where will you install the battery is one of the hardest decisions. If you want a full-suspension bike, a crank-drive might be a better option, but there's not so many people who've done that to learn from.

 

[103Alex1]

Thanks a lot d8veh for last post ... this is really helping me to bottom out priorities because there are so many variables at the moment it's easy to get diverted and wind up totally confused.

The gearing's important because often, when you build from a kit, you end up with too low gearing, so you can't pedal fast enough to keep up with the motor. Even with a 250w motor, you'll most likely be going faster than your Kalkhoff.

Why is that ? Doesn't the motor just sense the pedal effort and come in as a response ? Should it / can it not just cut out when you stop pedalling / deliver power in response to gradient requirement or in a variable selectable multiple of pedal effort you can choose from the "dashboard" on your handlebars ? Downhill or on absolute flat it's not a lot of work to ramp the gears up and use them to get speed - it's on the hills that you suffer and slow down. There's not so much need for a motor on the flat (and none DH) as long as the underlying bike delivers more performance (hence fixation with gears) Can only describe the underlying niggles with my current bike to try to see what can best be done to overcome them (if anything) in a new project.

On my current bike I don't use the low gears much unless on a considerable hill - my speed is already too high for 6th / 7th gear within a few metres and the pedals spin free unless I up the gear through the 8-11 range. The motor response to the gear changes can also be delayed - would prefer this to be seamless if possible. Pedals can even "spin out" in 8th/9th gear on the flat if I'm really giving it some welly. It's the upper range of gears where you can capitalize on the momentum and make progress towards your destination a little faster on the flat .

On the Agattu if I'm riding in 9th/10th gear in the zone above the 17mph mark the bike sometimes feels like it is at its very limit when I want to push it to a whole further level and it's just not there to be had. I've assumed that's down to motor-assistance limitations (or my own and that a bit of motor input would deliver what I'm really craving). But if it is down to the bike itself then presumably what I am ideally looking for in a donor bike is a higher gear ratio setup ? The motor is essentially helping out most effectively on the real hills at higher speeds but there's enough play in the bike to ride a lot faster and harder on the flat /moderate hills / downhill too than the Agattu allows ?

Not rushing to build a bike which feels like a moped or accelerates out of control. One of the things I like about the bike I have is that the motor is very much under my control, there are multiple power modes selectable off an LCD display. It's not "dictating" how I ride - it's responding to it. What I'm looking to do is address the shortcomings/limitations of the system I've been riding ideally without taking on a bike which requires a completely different sort of riding under normal conditions in order to solve the limitations of the one I currently have. Obviously at a fraction of the cost as it's a 2nd bike for possible touring and for use in the hilly far SW !

Am still completely confused about the throttle thing. Why can't you just turn down the power mode if it's going to race out of control when you're setting off and up it if you want more during the ride ? If the Agattu's lower gears (3-6) are only used on very steep hills with it's power output, being as good as useless the rest of the time, is this the same reason the whole issue is "by-passed" with a throttle on a powerful kit ? With the GNG / Bafang do you just hit a button if you want it off when riding ? ... and can you modify the power delivery responding to pedal sensor to have different levels of power assist ? All-or-nothing seems unrealistic .

Most DIY kits have throttles, so you can always get full power on demand. Pedal sensors often give only maximum power, or they give power in relation to cadence, which is even worse. Some kits have a control panel, which allows lower power from the pedal sensor to make it more useable. These kits are often more expensive.

Presumably this is what is installed on the Agattu ? I kind of assumed this was the norm for a crank drive kit and am very confused about hub drive kits and what they will mean as far as what actually happens when you pedal. To be completely honest I am happy with the Agattu-style set-up in terms of how power is delivered and am nervous about going for something different. It's how much power on hills that's limited and of course the cutting out thing. The idea of a motor kicking in without a range of power settings seems a bit crazy and potentially even dangerous. Struggling to imagine what another sort of set-up on something where pedal rotation kicks off power output would feel like.

The main advantages of converting a bike are to get higher speed or better climbing power, or if you already have a bike that you like, but want to make it electric, otherwise a ready-made bike might be a better solution. It may well be easier to upgrade the power or speed of an existing electric bike than to start from scratch

The bikes I have looked at seem far too expensive to have to buy a new battery on top and fall short on performance and bike component quality. Hesitant to spend a load of money building anything with less than the performance of the 11-G Alfine gears for unassisted riding periods for example (actually I don't think they are delivering enough scope as above) and the hydraulic brakes for example are fantastic - very smooth and reliable so I feel extremely safe.

The basic ready-made bikes in the £500-£699 range don't seem to be fitted out with things like hydraulic rim brakes, prospect of top-end performance improvement (the "extra push" at higher speeds) etc. and would need all the electrics modifying to get them up to range and performance at yet more cost making the end result seem too much outlay (probably approaching a grand). Not sure how the mechanical side of the bikes being sold in that price range are that much better than the old Raleigh in the garage or how far they are away from my Agattu.

So it's as much the underlying bike as the motor which I'm trying to optimize for the same outlay. Plus the fact I'd secretly like a really nice lighter faster bike sitting under the modifications which I can have more fun with as a complement to the luxury bike with top spec parts that can hit good speeds (17-20.5mph riden unassisted) that I have.

Otherwise am I not as well to just fit a more powerful kit on the old bike I've paid nothing for and leave it all down to the vastly superior motor and battery to somehow solve everything for a total cost of £450 ... and move the kit to a new bike later if I find one I really like ?

Something must surely explain the near £2.2k - £2.7k for an Agattu, the £1,000 RRP for an unconverted Dahon Cadence XL and the thousands of pounds asked for so-called higer-end unconverted MTBs and Road Bikes. How much of the true cost is parts and how much "packaging" ? What is it I am really missing that I'm about to lose out on by rigging up an old banger that "looks cheap" set against these other bikes ? ....

Basically if I'm buying a donor bike, am reluctant to outlay £750+ in total on a conversion (including donor bike build/buy) without ending up with something that has top quality parts, hydraulic brakes, proper sensors and speed monitoring etc etc. .. all the labour cost, dealer network, warranty, and a chunk of the profit margin are being stripped out so the savings should logically be very considerable ? That leaves me £250 change from the kit with which to find or modify a donor bike, preferably a folder with top spec mechanicals. Is that realistic if I went recent 2nd hand ? (I'm guessing £1k - £1.5k RRP when new).

One last thought for tonight (promise !) ... as regards the hub vs crank thing and look of the bike, ideally the battery would be mounted similarly to the Agattu or "within the triangle" and the motor central under the pedals. I guess a key lock for the battery and on-bike charging are out of the question ?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Easier to explain by way of example. Both the Bafang BPM and GNG kits have the same power and similar control systems. The motors are substantially more powerful than your Kalkhoff. You get an independent throttle and a pedal sensor. Both controllers have a cadence power algorithm for the pedal sensor, so that the faster you pedal, the more power you get. Neither kit has a panel where you can change power levels.

I won't explain why, but cadence related pedal sensors are useless on anything other than under-powered motors, so on these kits I guarantee that you'd disconnect the pedal sensor within a couple of days.

The throttles work just like a motorbike. You can get as much power as the motor will give or anything less by twisting the throttle, but your thumb will get tired holding it steady all the time. Full length and half-throttles are less tiring, if you have room for one. You don't need a panel for lower throttle levels because you can twist it to a lower level.

There's ways to get better control of the motor with added electronics if you're good at that sort of thing.

It's good to have an idea about where you want the battery to go, but you need a lot more detail than that. A 20aH battery can be a big beast. You need to have a look at some (on-line) and note sizes and weights. I can't think of any that come in any sort of case, so you'd have to make your own case/enclosure and figure out how to fix it securely to your bike. You can have a look at what other people have done to get some ideas, but most people with 250w kits use a 10aH or less battery, which won't give you long range or high power.

Folding bikes with top spec mechanicals are not that common. You should look on Ebay to see what there is to get some ideas. Also, battery mounting options tend to be very limited. If you want a big battery and good power, a lightweight folding bike is not really compatible. You need to think about a strong bike. Normal bikes with air suspension and Shimano XT stuff start from about £400 in average used condition. Steve managed to snag a Carera Kraken for £90, which has reasonable forks and hydraulic brakes. For another £150 he can upgrade the gears and changers.

Let's try and summarise where we are. From all the questions you're asking, it seems to me that it's not going to be easy getting what you want. For your first conversion, it would probably be better to copy what someone else has done if you can find something that you like. When you build your own bike, as a designer, you have to find the right balance between features, power, speed, weight, cost, handling, range etc. You can't have them all. As one goes up, the others go down. That's why I said it's better to start with either a clear vision of what and how you'll achieve your bike, or you have to start with a clear list of objectives.

 

[103Alex1]

Thanks a lot for the reply.

It's never easy to get what I would like for the money I'm prepared to spend .... we wound up designing a house (with an engineer but no architect) for the very same reasons - it was great and far cheaper in the end but getting to understand what mattered and what didn't (and why) involved understanding a great deal of what went in to it. In many areas opportunities came to light I didn't know were possible and solutions were uncovered to limitations I was told had to be accepted for the cost on countless occasions. Difference is someone else was building that and my own hands-on experience is the limiting factor here - but there's no resistance to learning. So it's not so much a lack of focus but a quest to understand possibilities in order to try to optimize the trade-offs in the end result.

D8veh, I do take your points on-board and you can spend a load of time trying to optimize or avoid things you don't understand only to find you can adapt happily enough to them in the end. This is a second bike so the scope of possible specs is far wider. I simply haven't riden enough bikes to be able to have a clear vision - can only go by what I've read on here and elsewhere, listen to others' grumbles about what they didn't like / had to compromise on (and think whether that would have bothered me or not in all likelihood) and go from the experiences of the bike I have.

To that end, I'm going to go out and try to test a hub-drive bike with throttle so I understand what it means as a first step. Maybe even some unmodified bikes too. It seems despite my pulling in the other direction (and a gut feeling the crank is for some reason by far the better concept that's been crowded out in UK) I'm being pushed repeatedly from crank to hub so it seems trying them out is the only way to move forward with the motor thing.

I just read the "throttle thread" and if you can use it to "feed in" power gradually then perhaps it is not so bad... in which case I'll stop fighting against the hub motor idea... but not keen on a thumb-throttle idea because it sounds like it would get a constant irritation having to use it on a longer journey and you'd always wish you could change it. Instincively feel both hands ought to be free on a bike for signalling, taking things in and out of pockets etc. too but hey ho.

If I hate the throttle then either need to focus solely on crank-drive options or get a road bike, learn to travel light and go on a very intensive fitness training programme, all of of which are options !

For my primary bike the range requirements, need for legality, minimum performance needs and my own relative ignorance & self-imposed urgency made things far simpler - it had to be ready-made, could only find/test about 2-3 bikes fitting the bill readily available to look at and my budget was busted by 40% (a good £800+ overspend) buying one - even with a hefty discount. Still financially pretty 'sore' from that end result (although entirely my own choice - was apprehensive and nervous about going ahead and forced myself to "just do it" in order to make sure I couldn't back out of the plan), so this time I would like to redress the value for money consequences lost on that round by the same sort of dosh if that's possible

The last 2 months have been an incredibly steep learning curve (and very expensive in terms of indirect costs) so feel like I've only just got to the point of understanding enough to get on the staring blocks. Even a month ago would not have even dreamed of trying to convert a bike let alone make modifications but with a bit of work on my own the will is actually growing. Determined to give this living "car free" every possible chance and make the most of it, so have resolved to keep going with it until Christmas 2013 as a minimum.

Primary goal is to have a clear idea of how to plug the holes left by the first bike (longer-distance mobility to allow me to spend more time with family and enjoy the rural lifestyle without leaving behind my independent means of transport). That can be achieved by leaving the bike there. However, if I can open up chances to travel more with the second bike that's even better because I will start to regain some of what I gave up selling the car and I also don't have to leave the bike there. It may be it takes three bikes. However, I don't have the money for that right now so if I can achieve a sensible result with two then that's a great achievement.

Aspirations may well be demanding - if there was an optimal result for a rock-bottom price everyone would be doing it. Would be less ambitious if I was running a car too (as most people are). But that defeats the whole object of the exercise which is to live a varied, healthy and fulfilling life free of the temptations of the petrol motor. Without asking other people to change their lives to facilitate it (giving lifts etc.). The easy way would undoubtedly be to get a car again and use it to reduce the length of the journeys a bike is needed for (so less upward cost pressure attributable to need for range and mobility). However, after finally kicking my very heavy smoking habit of 20 years in the last month, I can breathe deeply again and am not giving up on a car-free life so easily. It's helped me do something I thought I'd never achieve already.

Incurably questing nature is already kicking back in though so looking ahead to how tools can be obtained with which to explore further afield again after the Winter ... and make sure I can get to the sea regularly, because it's in the water I'm always truly happy. In the context of other priorities getting to the sea means an area with loads of hills and a +/- 15-mile round trip for the daily sea swim I used to go for earlier this year from about March onwards, gales permittin, when I spent far more timein the South-West than giving up my car is now allowing. Would like to work towards keeping up the sea trips (by miles the best bit of Devon for me) and having far more mobility down there in 2013.

In the context of possible touring elsewhere it ideally means multi-activity trips to places with no charging point on arrival involving wetsuits, waterfalls and ropes or rivers and kayaks at the other end. That all feels a long way away from being feasible right now with the transport options I have. Somewhere in the middle there will hopefully be an affordable compromise which brings enough of that back on the table.

The folding bike push is an unexpected and very sad consequence of the public transport limitations in Britain - pretty much resulting in a whole additional bike option being needed if you want to explore off the beaten path at the other end. As far as folders not being friendly to more powerful systems, it's not a connection I really made. For example, saw this last night and presumed there must be easy solutions :

Montague Folding Electric Mountian Bike Paratrooper Pro 72v Crystalyte LiFePO4 | eBay

... but on second glance it looks like the batters is in a rack bag (which wouldn't help me carry wetsuits, towels, provisions etc !). Would prefer to frame-mount a battery purely to leave the pannier capacity free for other stuff.

Specifically with regard to the batteries, if they can be obtained with lower Ah cheaply and they are that much lighter than the 15Ah one I have perhaps carrying a spare is a goer but anything less than a 25-35-mile (realistic genuine) range for a full year to 18 months in the hills seems extremely little to me - more on the "play-thing" than the "mode of transport" to encourage broadening horizons rather than constraining aspirations side of the "line".

 

[shemozzle999]

Based on you house building techniques:

Your bike could be easily converted as a run a round with a cheap front hub kit with a controller and a PAS system mounted on the non crank side, dont bother with a throttle if gear changing is important to you, rack mount the battery, fit paniers and if you dont have enough carring space buy a rucksack and carry it over your shoulder. If it does not work out sell it at a profit and buy a legal one - Bam.

 

[103Alex1]

Based on you house building techniques:

Your bike could be easily converted as a run a round with a cheap front hub kit with a controller and a PAS system mounted on the non crank side, dont bother with a throttle if gear changing is important to you, rack mount the battery, fit paniers and if you dont have enough carring space buy a rucksack and carry it over your shoulder. If it does not work out sell it at a profit and buy a legal one - Bam.

I like the thinking, but the "run-about" has to cope with long continuous steep hills and/or long trips (30 miles round trip+) - there is nowhere to really go less than 10 miles away and it's 30 miles round trip to go shopping there. So would a cheap front hub kit and PAS system sort either of these ?

Second thought is whether I would be capable of selling at a profit if the underlying bike is 10 years old (even if genuinely only used 2-3 times and in mint condition)....

 

[shemozzle999]

I like the thinking, but the "run-about" has to cope with long continuous steep hills and/or long trips (30 miles round trip+) - there is nowhere to really go less than 10 miles away and it's 30 miles round trip to go shopping there. So would a cheap front hub kit and PAS system sort either of these ?

Second thought is whether I would be capable of selling at a profit if the underlying bike is 10 years old (even if genuinely only used 2-3 times and in mint condition)....

Yes, with a 250w motor and a high capacity battery.
Depends what value you place on your old bike, its usually determined by what someone is prepared to pay.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

250w hub-motors are good if it's flat, but long hills is a killer unless you're very light or a strong pedaller.