Poor battery life - suggestions please?

[nin26]

Hi all!

I've been using my new NiMH Windsor quite a bit - so far I've clocked up just over a hundred miles (which I think isn't too bad given I've only had it a month and I couldn't ride it for over a week after I fell off ....) The battery life was poor to start with, but I put that down to its newness. It hasn't improved at all though. I wasn't expecting miracles as I'm pretty heavy, but I was hoping for close to the low end of the manufacturer's guidlines for range given that I'm only using the throttle briefly on starting on hills and junctions and I'm pedalling all the way. So I thought 15 miles wouldn't be too unreasonable an expectation?

The problem is, I'm using the bike for work, which is an 8 mile round trip. The battery is getting flat enough to start the intermittent cutting-out thing on the way up the hill back to my house after one round trip (even though I'm spending a fair time during the trip at over 15 mph), so I charge up for the next day's trip in the morning when I get home. I've tried riding it round the block to get it really flat, but it seems to go on forever just cutting in and out. I'm guessing that getting the battery really flat to condition it is the key to getting the extra range. Is there an easy way to get it really flat that doesn't involve getting home from work and riding round and round in circles for hours?

I'm still having occasional problems with the power disapearing for no apparent reason even when the battery is full and I haven't gone over any bumps in the road. The shop I bought from says I'm welcome to take it in to be checked over, but it's outside my current range at 10.5 miles and then I'd have to wait for them to fix it and charge her up because I wouldn't be able to get home again ..... and no, I can't get a Windsor in my car!

Help?

 

[flecc]

Your bike or battery is faulty, or the connections of the battery to the bike are failing in some way. NiMh batteries do not normally cut out under load, it's a characteristic of Li-ion batteries which drop voltage more.

It sounds most likely to be a faulty battery, one cell failed early in life always being a possibility with NiMh cells. You do need to take it back to the dealer and leave it there for attention.

However heavy you are, you should have no difficulty on your mileage with that model.
.

 

[nin26]

Thank you for the advice!

Hmmmm, that's what I thought about MiMH and cutting-out - and precisely why I chose it over the more expensive Lithium battery.

I've rung the shop and they've booked it in for a full check-over, service and 24 hour testing next Monday. I've explained the problems I've been having and they agree that it sounds like a faulty battery.

Would a dodgy battery cause the strange and sudden lack of power as well as the short battery life? That doesn't happen on hills in particular - today it happened when I was sat at traffic lights, went to pull away and there was nothing there at all for a good half a minute and then it miraculously came back. Trouble is, it is truly intermittant - some days it doesn't happen at all, and if it is a different fault I'm guessing it might be a hard one to find.

It's good to hear that I'm not being utterly unrealistic with the range that I was hoping to achieve. I'm heavy - but in a "built like a carthorse" kind of way, rather than "flabby couch potato" so although my ability to ride a normal bike is reduced because of my dodgy knee, once I'm up to speed I don't need a great deal of assistance as I'm pretty strong - which is why I thought that an 8 mile range wasn't right. Here's hoping it will come back from the shop with a much better range than that! I was finding that 8 miles wasn't nearly enough once I got out and about at the weekend.

 

[flecc]

Yes, you should get at least 15 miles and possibly 20 miles range.

Given that cutting out, it could be a controller fault, or less likely, a battery connection fault possibly at the weld on one of the cells, or a cell itself.

I do favour it being a battery fault, and if the dealer has another battery to try, that will soon prove or disprove that.
.

 

[frank9755]

I agree, it sounds like the battery is not taking a full charge. That cutting in and out is what you get when the battery is nearly empty.

I'm a reasonably fit cyclist and live in a flat area. I get 30+ miles range from a Powacycle NiMH battery - so if you are getting 20 there is something wrong.

As Flecc says, the first thing the dealer should do is try another battery - which should give an answer quickly. Under no circumstances should you be paying for a 'full service' or similar!

Frank

 

[nin26]

Well, the Windsor is back from the shop - oh dear, where do I start?

I somehow knew I was in for a rough ride when I arrived at the shop and they'd forgotten that I was supposed to be having the demo Windsor whilst mine was being fixed. They'd sold it to someone the day before.

Oh well, at least they gave me a lift home (over 10 miles ..... it was that or walk.)

I told them about the appalling range. I told them that I'd done my best to flatten the battery as much as possible to condition it, but it had made no appreciable difference.

I told them that there was the additional strange behaviour where the motor would seem to forget to work (on throttle and pedal sensor) - even when the battery was fully charged - and that after a few seconds, it would start working again as if nothing had happened. I asked them to check all the connections and the controller.

I told them that the gears needed adjusting too.


Well, at least they did the gears.


They flattened the battery good and proper and then re-charged the bike. Between three fit young men on flat roads, they managed to get a range of 18 miles - which they decided was fine.

They obviously didn't check the bike thoroughly for the intermittent fault, because it's still got it. In fact, the strange behaviour has worsened - the motor decided to start working when I was pushing the bike earlier. It's lucky I always cover the brake when I'm pushing a bike. So it's random cutting in as well as cutting out now.

Oh, and my range today was a princely 14 miles - with cutting in and out on the last 3. It is a mild improvement granted, so I'm trying the shop's method to get the battery totally flat (without the fancy workshop equipment). I've propped the bike up in a doorway over large flowerpot and jammed the throttle open against the wall - it's been driving the back wheel for an hour and it's finally started to slow down a shade.

I'm well and truly fed up - I spent more on this bike than I did on the family car! Am I asking too much to expect it to work as it should?

I haven't rung the shop yet - I'm too cross to do that just now - so I just wanted to check before I did if anyone had any suggestions as to what I should be saying to the shop this time around. They did say that they're getting another Windsor in (an LPx version) which I can borrow if the bike has to go in again, but I can't be doing with getting messed about over and over and I don't want to be going backwards and forward to the shop endlessly and getting mucked about (demo bike or no!)

 

[markf]

You could try yours with that LPX battery when it's arrived and been charged, the bikes are both the same, then you'll know if it's the battery or not.

With that information you'll know what to insist on from the dealer or Powacycle, and if necessary demand a full refund or replacement bike which you'd be entitled to as the bike is clearly not fit for purpose.
.

 

[nin26]

That's a good idea, I think I'll suggest it to them. There's most definitely something up with the bike, but it's almost as if the shop think that its normal behaviour for an electric bike. It would be nice to pin it down to whether the fault is the battery or not.

I'm a good customer to the shop - I bought my partner's Giant Sedona there too - along with most of our cycle accessories (locks, cycle computers, panniers - you name it). I've not had to go back about anything else (not had cause to), so it's not like I'm a perennial troublemaker or anything. I'm just so disappointed - when it's working, the Windsor is nothing short of brilliant. I'm just so gutted that I got a duff one.

I'm guessing that I've got the battery pretty flat now - the bike is still on the flowerpot and is now cutting in and out more and more. I'll leave it there for as long as I can get away with having the back door wide open and then give it an overnight charge - and then see how far I get until it's as flat as a pancake tomorrow.

 

[Tiberius]

Hi Nin,

Did you see the other thread on things that affect an ebikes range? Might be worth a look through there for any ideas. There is a variation in what is achieved and I'm just a bit worried that if the shop is getting 18 miles and you are getting 14, they might say that's within the variation and not look properly for a fault.

Mind you, though I'm not familiar with the model or its spec, I would have thought the professionals should be able to get way over 18 miles.

Nick

PS. A thought. If you look on ebikes.ca they run some fairly serious automated battery testing. I wonder how many shops/dealers have the equipment to do that. Its got to be much better to be able to test the battery properly rather than rely on checking the bike range.

 

[nin26]

To be fair, I'd have expected the young whippet-thin, lycra clad cycling enthusiasts that work at the shop to have gotten far more than 18 miles out of a Windsor - especially with the ranges that others have reported. I'd have said 4 miles less for a, erm, "built like a brick privvy" female with an arthritic, displaced knee would suggest that either they weren't trying to break any records or I'm more efficient at cycling than my frame and injuries might suggest! Maybe I'll put that to them if they quibble about the range ..... "Hey, if a fat bird can still get within 4 miles of lycra man, it makes it a bit difficult to claim the reason she's getting a low range is because she's riding up the Himalayas into a headwind on the way to work ....."

I've had a look at that website - wow, it'll take me a while before I understand any of that .... I'm guessing that the shop don't have any fancy equipment given that their high-tech solution was to park the bike on a stand and tape the throttle open, then charge it up and take it for a spin. Probably not the most accurate way to gauge the health of a new battery!

 

[keithhazel]

To be fair, I'd have expected the young whippet-thin, lycra clad cycling enthusiasts that work at the shop to have gotten far more than 18 miles out of a Windsor -
------------------------------------------------------------------------

surely 18 miles with pedal assist is rubbish...wouldnt that equate to maybe only about 13 on battery power alone ?

 

[nin26]

Even less that that I would've thought. Maybe I'll try it at the weekend, just out of interest.

I normally pedal pretty hard on the way to work - I spend a good deal of what range I do get at more than the 15 mph that the bike assists to.

I've managed to get the battery utterly, one hundred percent flat now. It won't even turn the wheel when it's off the ground. The shop reckoned they flattened it twice, and I've just got it flat again. Even ignoring the efforts I went to to get the battery conditioned before I took the bike in for repair, that's three full discharges in as many days. Surely they can't possibly claim that it isn't conditioned now?

 

[Tiberius]

Careful, they'll start claiming that its been abused.

Not really though. The controller should cut out at a certain voltage, so the end point is before battery is discharged so far it could be damaged. Running it down using the bike should be no problem - or if it is you have separate cause for complaint. On the other hand, running it down for instance by connecting a light bulb and leaving it for a week is not recommended.

Nick

 

[nin26]

I spoken to the bike shop again. I'm glad I waited until today, because getting impatient and cross with them wouldn't have achieved anything!

I explained the problems and said that the range was better but still not what I would expect. I said I was rather more concerned about the intermittent fault as it could potentially be dangerous if the motor suddenly decided to start for no reason whilst I was stationary in traffic or pushing the bike in a pedestrian area.

They've agreed that something somewhere is very odd and suggested that they exchange my NiMH battery for the upgraded Lithium Polymer one when it arrives (at no cost to me). I said that I'd already received advice to try the battery from another bike to determine whether or not that was the cause of the fault but pointed out that it could be a controller problem - so giving me a new battery might not be the end of it (as much as I wish it was!)

It does sound like they're really going to try to fix this one now - so fingers crossed the new battery arrives soon and we'll finally get to the bottom of all this!

 

[nin26]

Just thought I'd give an update on the Windsor problems .....

Today the bike shop swapped my iffy Windsor for a shiny new Li-Poly one. They're going to get my old one fixed and keep it as the demo bike (to replace the one they sold).

The lithium battery has noticably more pep than the NiMH - I've done the ride home from the bike shop and no sign of the battery going flat as yet. I can storm up hills in a higher gear and at a higher speed than on the old one. I'm just praying that this bike isn't faulty .... I think the bike shop would despair if it was!

One question though - should I get the battery good and flat before it's first re-charge, or am I better off charging it now? I know the lithium batteries like little top-up charges in general use, but do I still need to condition it?

 

[Cyclezee]

Nin,
If the LiPo battery is new, fully discharge 2 or 3 times, then just fully charge up at the end of every days riding.

John

 

[nin26]

Thank you - I'll make sure I get it good and flat the first couple of times. After the awful range I had on the old bike, I want to make sure that I get the best range I can possibly get on this one!

 

[Terrytraveller]

Hi Nin26,

I have just read through the thread postings, I have the Powacycle Lynx folder, 180 watt 26 volt system bought only two weeks ago, very pleased with it so far.

Regarding the motor sometimes not cutting in straight away from Twist Grip or pedals. I have had a short time lapse (2 seconds) for cutting in and shutting down at times, I have put this down to a controller feature.

I understand yours may cut out for a much longer time, and agree with others comments on an intermittent open circuit, short or bad/corroded electrical connection. As you cannot override the Pedlec mode by twisting the throttle, it probably is not the hall effect sensor arrangement on the pedal crank, or the throttle control on the handlebar.

I wonder if the brake overide switches are jamming on, these cut the power when braking, even with throttle on.

The only way to find intermittent faults now they have already had a good poke around, is to change modules one at a time.

I will be very interested to know how you get on, and what ultimately was done to put things right.

Regards Terry

 

[nin26]

Hi Terry,

I'll be asking the bike shop if they've found anything after a week or two - I'm interested to know what the problem was after all that hassle!

On the ride home, the new bike also had a couple of delayed starts - but, like you said, it was only for a second or two. I can certainly live with that. It seems to happen most if you roll gently up to traffic lights and then balance for a second or so before pulling away again - it almost feels like I'm confusing it! It didn't once try to pull away on it's own.

The old one worsened the longer I had it. By the time I handed it over, it had a mind of it's own! The power would come in or cut out entirely independently of anything I was doing. I'd be stood astride the bike at traffic lights and I could feel it trying to pull away and would have to hold the brakes on to cut the motor .... When the power cut out, the only way I found to get it going again was to stop pedalling and roll the throttle on and off a few times - if you carried on pedalling it seemed to take forever to come back. Very odd indeed! Some times it would partially cut the power - you'd be pedalling along wondering why you needed to change down gears because it would be harder work than usual - but not as hard as it would be if the motor cut out entirely. Then all of a sudden, full power would come back.

The new one feels different - more like I'm in charge (if that makes any sense!)

Regards,
Nin

 

[nin26]

Update time again! .....

I've been putting the new bike through it's paces and am now on the third charge cycle. The first charge cycle returned a range of 31.5 miles! The second one was slightly lower at 29 miles, but I did give it some serious grief up the longest hill drag I know (3 miles of evil hill), and then went back and did it all again for good measure. I know the Li-Poly battery is supposed to give a better range - but I'd say that it proves my average range of around 8miles on the NiMH was definitely nothing to do with me expecting unreasonable things from it!

This bike still occasionally forgets to put down the power when it should though - although I've noticed it mostly happens when the battery is starting to get a bit tired (not flat, but within 6 or 8 miles of flat). It's still not tried to run away on me though. I'm guessing that maybe the controllers on these more budget bikes are a little basic?

I'm going to have to play about with the gears because they're just not selecting as they should - but at least that's not the electric side and should be simple enough adjustment! At some point I'd like to give it an extra gear with a megarange as I've never used anything lower than 3rd, but my legs are going like pistons in 6th. A 7th gear would be great!

Overall, I'm a very happy bunny right now - although I'm still thinking of possible improvements (new front forks, decent tyres, megarange, non-suspension seat post ..... ) Some women are never satisfied eh?