Police Checking in London

Somebody contacted me from Londo and told me this. He was using a cargo trike in London to do deliveries. He bought it from a reputable company, and it was plated as 250w, running 48v (I think) at 15amps. It had a 6km/hr throttle fitted. Top speed slightly under 15 mph because of the low motor gearing.

 

The police stopped him, looked over his bike and decided that it looked too powerful, so they took it back to the station, put one of those clamp type current measuring devices around the battery wires, and opened the throttle. With the motor more or less stalled, they calculated 600w from the battery, which they thought was its output power, so they impounded it and said that it was going to be destroyed. Naturally, the guy was very upset because not only was he going to lose his very expensive trike, but he was also going to lose his income from all the Xmas deliveries. He got a letter from the manufacturer of the trike, that said that it was legal and rated at 250w, but said that they had measured more than 250w, so they disregarded it.

 

I wrote him a letter explaining that the ploice had used an invalid method to determine the output power and that they had applied the wrong standard, as the law applies to only the continuous rated power, not the output power. There were details in the letter to substantiate those statements.

 

Now the happy ending. He gave the letter to the police. Not long afterwards, they returned his bike and appologised for what they had done.

 

Hopefully, they won't be doing that again.

 

It's virtually impossible to test a vehicle to dertermine its continuous rated power or whether it's power is legal, but what you must have is a label or plate on the bike that indicates its maximum speed and rated power.

So reassuring the cops have their priorities sorted spending time checking and illegally impounding legal bikes ....

It's virtually impossible to test a vehicle to dertermine its continuous rated power or whether it's power is legal, but what you must have is a label or plate on the bike that indicates its maximum speed and rated power.

 

That is definitely the wisest course, here's the law on labelling according to James Brown of the DfT International Vehicle Standards section:

 

"As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle."

 

Of course with a kit machine you will have to take the place of the manufacturer with a created name which is a bit of a snag.

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That is definitely the wisest course, here's the law on labelling according to James Brown of the DfT International Vehicle Standards section:

 

"As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle."

 

Of course with a kit machine you will have to take the place of the manufacturer with a created name which is a bit of a snag.

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The UK Government advice would appear to not agree with that statement.

Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

The requirement for to show power appears to be optional with the manufacturers name. It also states that the power should be a maximum of 250w. If that last bit were the case just about all ebikes would be illegal. Is there a document that actually gives the rules with a government that contradicts that advice and written down ie not someone's opinion. The last time I looked the document above is all I could find.

Remind the police that only an officer who is a qualified and accredited vehicle examiner can start putting bikes and stuff on dynos. Most police farces only have 1 or 2 (although the Met probably has a lot more) .

 

A good friend of mine is head of roads policing for our country and he tells me that they've been issued with a bulletin by the Home Office showing photos of various derecstriction dongles, so that officers can recognise them and be aware of where to find them on a bike.

 

And yes, it's quite right that officers take a legitimate interest. Illegal bikes are motor vehicles, and not only are idiots who run them breaking the law, they're adding fuel to the Daily Mail clamour that would see all ebikes banned.

Given that this testing could result in the destruction of someones property, should the testing officer not also be an electrical engineer?

As vfr says, how is it possible to determine a rated power other than from a label?

There seems to be a confusion in the wording of legislation where rated power, maximum power and maximum rated power are conflated. Then, non electricians, treat this as measureable power output fron the battery, as the officer above did, and assume illegality.

I fear that, at some point, this is going to result in a highly publicised test case with the likes of the Daily Smell banging on about how these infernal contraptions are a danger to life, limb and the very existence of society.

The UK Government advice would appear to not agree with that statement.

Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

The requirement for to show power appears to be optional with the manufacturers name. It also states that the power should be a maximum of 250w. If that last bit were the case just about all ebikes would be illegal. Is there a document that actually gives the rules with a government that contradicts that advice and written down ie not someone's opinion. The last time I looked the document above is all I could find.

 

Never ever take any notice of the governments published advice on e-bikes, they consistently get it very wrong. Only ever take notice of what the law actually says. To learn more about that read through my following two comprehensive posts, the second being an elaboration on points raised by queries:

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/post-558483

 

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/post-566780

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That is definitely the wisest course, here's the law on labelling according to James Brown of the DfT International Vehicle Standards section:

 

"As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary, from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle."

 

Of course with a kit machine you will have to take the place of the manufacturer with a created name which is a bit of a snag.

.

 

This story is a bit worrying. Well done vfr for getting this case resolved.

 

Flecc, if you need to put a manufacturer's name on the kit bike, which one do you put? The motor, the controller, the LCD, the battery? Or do you become the manufacturer?

Flecc, if you need to put a manufacturer's name on the kit bike, which one do you put? The motor, the controller, the LCD, the battery? Or do you become the manufacturer?

 

That's the predicament, you in creating the pedelec are the manufacturer, just like anyone else who uses a proprietary Chinese frame with such as RockShox forks, Shimano gears, Tektro brakes, Continental tyres etc.

 

But your own name might not be suitable for convincing a police officer.

 

What I'd suggest is you invent a suitably convincing maker name and, if asked, refer to your bike as a prototype with a view to manufacturing if it proves appealing enough.

 

However, keeping this in perspective, you are unlikely to ever be challenged on a kit bike. There's history behind this case that VFR400 was involved in.

 

It starts with pedicabs in use to carry tourists around the Central London sights, making London's black cab drivers very angry for two reasons, robbing them of fares in their view and causing obstruction with their very low speeds in traffic. That was at the time of the old law that had pedelec weight limits which included 60 kilos and 250watts maximum for tricycles.

 

So when some of the pedicab riders added motors to make their life more bearable, the taxi drivers through their association stirred things up with Met Police to force them to act, since all the pedicabs greatly exceeded 60 kilos, double that being nearer the mark, plus some had illegally high powered motors.

 

So the scene was set for future police action against them.

 

Until the 6th April 2015 amendments to the 1983 EAPC regulation which removed all weight limits from pedelecs. You can imagine how much that pleased the taxi drivers and the nanny state police!

 

So this latest case was just a vindictive attempt to gain a win on illegal power grounds, but the police making a complete mess of it, ending up looking silly. It's also historically the second failed attempt at prosecuting on illegal power grounds, the previous one killed by BEBA (British Electric Bike Manufacturers Association) with my legal assistance getting the DfT to overrule the police force involved.

 

So no pedelecer really needs to worry about it, we'll take up any future unfair case.

 

(BEBA is now incorporated into the Bicycle Association)

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Edited December 25, 20205 yr by flecc

You are lucky in London, here in Wales they did something even worse , looked in People`s bags for Easter Eggs as they weren`t considered necessary in the first Lockdown .

Really!!! Sorry but have the police got nothing better to do in the current times.

Happy Christmas everybody

Edited December 25, 20205 yr by MontyPAS

Really!!! Sorry but have the police got nothing better to do in the current times.

Happy Christmas everybody

It's nothing to do with Covid. Instead it's about control and setting precedents for a broarder agenda. You can expect to see a lot more of this sort of thing. These measures have been planned since 2016 - long before they invented Covid-19.

Really!!! Sorry but have the police got nothing better to do in the current times.

Happy Christmas everybody

 

Easy targets I suppose

So reassuring the cops have their priorities sorted spending time checking and illegally impounding legal bikes ....

 

Yep, people being stabbed, but all they care about is stopping and checking a perfectly innocent e bike owner - what would even possess them to do that?

Yep, people being stabbed, but all they care about is stopping and checking a perfectly innocent e bike owner - what would even possess them to do that?

 

Motor vehicles kill a jumbo jet load of people every month in the UK. How many people are killed by e-bikes? Almost nil per year.

Remind the police that only an officer who is a qualified and accredited vehicle examiner can start putting bikes and stuff on dynos. Most police farces only have 1 or 2 (although the Met probably has a lot more) .

 

A good friend of mine is head of roads policing for our country and he tells me that they've been issued with a bulletin by the Home Office showing photos of various derecstriction dongles, so that officers can recognise them and be aware of where to find them on a bike.

 

And yes, it's quite right that officers take a legitimate interest. Illegal bikes are motor vehicles, and not only are idiots who run them breaking the law, they're adding fuel to the Daily Mail clamour that would see all ebikes banned.

 

 

So, has anyone actually been prosecuted for having a dongle installed?

So, has anyone actually been prosecuted for having a dongle installed?

Not yet. I've been on this forum 10 years and people are always posting scare stories. None have ever been proved to have any foundation. We even had one guy writing to magazines, etc, trying to stir up interest in clamping down on illegal ebikes. There have been two documented prosecutions. One was on gurnsey, where everybody knows each other and what they're doing. The other was a woman on a stand-on scooter that didn't have any pedals. The police told her not to ride it but she tried to outwit them and failed.

i have tried to get the police to chase me there not interested and that was 5 years ago

they calculated 600w from the battery

 

Are the Police idiots? Or did they simply want a win? Of course they're going to measure a higher wattage from the battery! My house wiring can supply 5kw but I my kettle uses 1.8kw. I do hope this harassment of ebike riders doesn't increase. I'm nervous of being stopped, in case they take exception to my top pedal assist speed being easily adjustable by the controller. They'll have to prise my ebike from my cold dead hands...

Are the Police idiots? Or did they simply want a win? Of course they're going to measure a higher wattage from the battery! My house wiring can supply 5kw but I my kettle uses 1.8kw. I do hope this harassment of ebike riders doesn't increase. I'm nervous of being stopped, in case they take exception to my top pedal assist speed being easily adjustable by the controller. They'll have to prise my ebike from my cold dead hands...

At least after 1st Jan, they won't be checking to see if your vacuum cleaner is over 1kw.

At least after 1st Jan, they won't be checking to see if your vacuum cleaner is over 1kw.

 

I'll strap the Dyson to the pannier as a provocation 31st Dec...

Motor vehicles kill a jumbo jet load of people every month in the UK.

Not true:

- road traffic deaths per month in 2019 is 146 (1752 / 12 months)

- a jumbo jet (or equivalent) carries 300-500 people

 

You're over-estimating by 270%.

 

How many people are killed by e-bikes? Almost nil per year.

Quite likely to be true:

- 4 pedestrians were killed by a cyclist in 2019

- 1 cyclist was killed by another cyclist in 2019

 

No details of whether any of these were ebikes, but it's statistically unlikely since ebikes sales and usage is going to be < 10% of normal bikes.

 

Sources:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2019

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/ras40-reported-accidents-vehicles-and-casualties

(the RAS40004 PDF)

 

https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-seats-standard-747-jumbo-jet-48d4463cfd9c1598

Edited December 26, 20205 yr by richtea99

Not true:

- road traffic deaths per month in 2019 is 146 (1752 / 12 months)

- a jumbo jet (or equivalent) carries 300-500 people

 

You're over-estimating by 270%.

 

 

Quite likely to be true:

- 4 pedestrians were killed by a cyclist in 2019

- 1 cyclist was killed by another cyclist in 2019

 

No details of whether any of these were ebikes, but it's statistically unlikely since ebikes sales and usage is going to be < 10% of normal bikes.

 

Sources:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2019

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/ras40-reported-accidents-vehicles-and-casualties

(the RAS40004 PDF)

 

https://www.reference.com/world-view/many-seats-standard-747-jumbo-jet-48d4463cfd9c1598

 

 

 

The quote about a jumbo jet load of people every month comes from the late 90s early 2000s, back then it was over 300 people per month, sometimes significantly so. So yes a little out of date now as towards the end of the first decade of this century, numbers began to fall and in recent times it has been less than 2000 per year.

 

However, the reasons for this are probably due to vulnerable road users having their activities suppressed due to fear over road safety, rather than roads getting safer - from Wikipedia:

 

 

Suppression of activity by vulnerable road users

Another independent report challenged the government's claim that falling casualty rates meant that roads were becoming 'much safer'. Mayer Hillman, John Adams and John Whitelegg suggest that roads may actually be felt to be sufficiently dangerous as to deter pedestrians from using them. They compared rates for those whose transport options are most limited, the elderly and children and found that:[26]

• Britain's child pedestrian safety record is worse than the average for Europe, in contrast to the better than average all-ages figure.
  
• Children's independent mobility is increasingly curtailed, with fear of traffic being cited as a dominant cause
  
• Distances walked have declined more than in other European countries
  
• Similar (though less well-defined) observations can be made regarding the elderly
  

 

I think the growth in the internet, smart phones and consoles etc over the early part of this century have led to most younger people spending increasingly more of their time indoors and being sedentary. Parents are far happier letting their children sit in front of screens for hours than letting them go outside and play.

 

It is no surprise then that we are now seeing more and more people suffering from obesity and related health issues such as type 2 diabetes. In addition to this there are all the health effects caused by increasing traffic levels generating greater amounts of pollution. The health span and actual predicted life span of people in the UK has stopped rising. So although motor vehicles may not be killing people in an obvious and direct manner as they were 15 years ago, they are still killing an enormous number of people, - far more than reported figures and, disproportionately so compared to e-bikes.

 

In addition, the numbers of serious injuries from motor vehicle incidents have changed little in the last 15 years (decreased and then increased again) and there is thought to be significant under reporting of injuries. The awful impact of serious injuries on people's lives should never be underestimated.

We know of one death by e-bike in 2019 when a lady in Dalston ran out in front of one and died from her injuries.

Not true:

- road traffic deaths per month in 2019 is 146 (1752 / 12 months)

- a jumbo jet (or equivalent) carries 300-500 people

 

You're over-estimating by 270%.

With Covid a jumbo jet probably classifies as 'full' with 1/3 that number, making the estimate pretty much right for 2020??