planning a 700c commuter

[GarethJ]

Hi all, I've been hoovering up information in the hope to get a project together to adapt a standard 700c steel framed, road/touring bike into a commuter with some assistance.

I'd just like to share thoughts and see if anyone had ideas or opinions before I fully decide on kit/components.

I've got an old electric bike, a heavy, 36v 250W giant, which is alright but it was designed as a town runnaround/cycleshare bike and I'd like something much more agile/ nimble.
I can't justify spending the money a new off the shelf bike would cost
I'd be happy with anything technical a diy ebike kit would entail. wiring/mechanics/welding/machining are all fine. I probably won't want to respoke a wheel though as, for one thing, I don't have a decent donor rim to lace.

Prefect a rear hub motor

commuting distance is ~10miles each way. mostly downhill on the way, uphill on the way back. It's for my partner, she should be able to charge it up at work. She does it occaisionally now with a non electric bike and still wants to pedal - just get home a bit faster! I'd like to keep weight lower down so aiming for frame mount battery

So lots of people here seem to use the BMSBattery site. I'm considering the Q100 complete kit:
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/616-16693-q100c-cst-36v350w-rear-e-bike-whole-kit-ebike-kit.html#/213-rpm-201/380-display-lcd3
-10Ah Battery?
-I cant seem to find much info regarding the screen/LCD/LED though. There are a few different options that seem to be priced differently but I've no idea what you get for the price difference
-assume 201rpm recommended for a 700C wheel and help up hills rather than all out flat speed.

I could just about put together a bunch of components from that site now but the kit appeals as it seems relatively good value. Interested to hear if anyone had other suggestions though...?
-Also, I take it the "tax" the site keeps referring to is UK import duty @20%??
If that's the case, it looks like ~£435 inc tax&delivery

Alternatively I have been looking at;
https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/custom/mix-match-your-own-conversion-kit-93.html
-250/500W
-9AH Battery (??)
-LCD/PAS
-+ freewheel

Comes in at ~£515.
I like the idea of buying from the UK with all known taxes paid but struggle to justify it unless the stuff is considerably better.

sorry for the rambling first post, any thoughts/opinions/alternatives very welcome!

Thanks,
Gareth

 

[wheeliepete]

I don't consider BMS battery to be quite as popular as they were a few years ago, as there is now more choice available. I have bought bare hub motors from them in the past, but I think if you are looking for a complete kit, there are better options.
I would rule out Cyclotricity simply because it's a heavy direct drive motor which offers no advantage over a much lighter geared hub, esp. on hills.
Take a look at the kits that Woosh offer, a bit more money, but UK company with excellent CS and trade members on this forum.

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits

The Yose Power kits are also good value and shipped from the EU, so no tax to pay at the moment. Quite a few on here have these and they are proving reliable.

https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/rear-motor-60.html

 

[GarethJ]

Hi,
Thanks for the quick and informative reply.

I don't necessarily have to buy a complete kit but as I need all the constituent parts anyway, I figured buying it in kit form was likely to be more cost effective?

Like the look of both of those kits and the Yose Power one seems very competitively priced.
I'm not finding it easy to make a sensible comparison between them (or indeed various others) though.
I understand enough about physics, electricity and the like to know that the woosh kits for example aren't going to be putting out 250W if the controller is hosing through 17A at 48V.

So, any tips on how to get my head around how the different ratings of different components are likely to relate to real world performance so I can try to make a sensible decision on what's appropriate?
Maybe there's a resource I should be reading somewhere...

Thanks again,
Gareth

 

[Nealh]

48v will have more torque then 36v given a similar ( within 2- 3a) amp rated controller and more speed if you were to be naughty. Acceleration from a stop will be better.
The main difference is in PAS 5 the torque/power for inclines is mighty at 48v, though the other PAS levels will be a bit stronger. PAS 5 has 50% more power then PAS level 4.

 

[GarethJ]

Thanks, that makes sense.

I'm probably leaning towards the Yose kit though, it's hard to justify the £150+ step up. Is the controller in that 36v Yose kit rater the weak link in the setup? rated 7A (max 15) sounds a little weedy. Or maybe there's just confusion with how different companies determine their continuous/max ratings.

Thanks again,
Still interested if there aree any other vaguely sensible options.

 

[wheeliepete]

It's tricky comparing kits from different suppliers, there are always parts you would prefer from all of them. The alternative is to cherry pick parts from different suppliers and build your own kit, but this does take a considerable amount of time if your knowledge is limited. What I would say if you are trying to see the price difference between Woosh and Yose is 1, Woosh kit a little more refined, less excess cable to hide, 2, branded cells in the battery, not generic Chinese ones, 3. Branded motor for which parts are available, bit of an unknown on Yose kits, and of course Woosh are UK based, so any problems you have will be quickly and easily solved, although Yose do seem to respond well with regards to replacing items that fail or arrive damaged. This being your first build, I wouldn't worry too much about the 15 amp controller, if you get bitten by the ebike bug you will soon discover there are ways to MORE POWER!!

 

[Nealh]

The Yose is 15a max power output so @36v so about 430w max output at the wheel, the 36v is very capable. At 48v and 17-20a it is the business if you want it to be.

Comparing price to the likes of Woosh is unfair as Woosh give great CS and backup here in Blighty and this is factored into the pricing. Also Woosh hubs are Bafang a proven brand with a good reliability track record. As yet the Yose has been reliable but needs a longer track record of say 5+ years to say it is equal or a sgood reliability wise.

 

[GarethJ]

Thanks for the input, appreciate it.

Will let you know what gets decided...

 

[GarethJ]

Well, thanks for all the input/advice, a few things left to fit but it's looking good. Just waiting on mudguards and lights.

It all went together reasonably well, I had to machine off ~1mm of the inside of the biggest gear on the freewheel as it interfered with the new wheel and bound. Also, hated the bracketed for the LCD so I heated the corners enough to soften the plastic and reposition somewhere I preferred. The cables were pretty long. Hopefully it's not asking too much of the skinny downtube - it has 3x M5 rivnuts.

I've had a quick test ride and I'm pretty pleased, it's lighter than the old proprietary giant I had and noticibly more powerful. I also don't miss the feeling of cycling through porridge the pedal torque sensor on it gave.

I've ordered a universal led headlight that should work direct off the battery. Any thoughts on how to tap into it? The LCD has a "lights" on/off feature but I haven't seen anywhere that looks like it might be switched by it yet. Am a bit nervous of sneaking into a 36V power supply directly - I suppose I could fit an appropriate fuse.

 

[vidtek]

View attachment 29403

Well, thanks for all the input/advice, a few things left to fit but it's looking good. Just waiting on mudguards and lights.

It all went together reasonably well, I had to machine off ~1mm of the inside of the biggest gear on the freewheel as it interfered with the new wheel and bound. Also, hated the bracketed for the LCD so I heated the corners enough to soften the plastic and reposition somewhere I preferred. The cables were pretty long. Hopefully it's not asking too much of the skinny downtube - it has 3x M5 rivnuts.

I've had a quick test ride and I'm pretty pleased, it's lighter than the old proprietary giant I had and noticibly more powerful. I also don't miss the feeling of cycling through porridge the pedal torque sensor on it gave.

I've ordered a universal led headlight that should work direct off the battery. Any thoughts on how to tap into it? The LCD has a "lights" on/off feature but I haven't seen anywhere that looks like it might be switched by it yet. Am a bit nervous of sneaking into a 36V power supply directly - I suppose I could fit an appropriate fuse.

Gareth- I put a 12v ciggie lighter mod to my freego Eagle 36v battery. I used a buck converter to give 12v at 3 amps. check out my post here:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/12-volt-and-usb-power-sockets-on-e-bikes.25308/

 

[davie150]

Brilliant , first thing I thought was, will the ash not get in your eye whilst riding .

 

[vidtek]

Brilliant , first thing I thought was, will the ash not get in your eye whilst riding .

Gave up in 1970, had my last fag at 5.00pm April 5th. Got married in May same year, changed my job, moved into my new house and bought Juicy Fruit chewing gum boxes wholesale! Not willpower, just changed my whole life within a month, if I'd been in the same old grind I would have faltered at the first hurdle......haven't had a fag since then.

 

[davie150]

Thank god, the ashtray would not have sat on the handlebars any way.
I stopped about 12 years ago myself

 

[vidtek]

Have you seen my handlebars-not an inch of room for any more gadgets!

 

[Woosh]

The Yose Power kits are also good value and shipped from the EU, so no tax to pay at the moment. Quite a few on here have these and they are proving reliable.

https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/rear-motor-60.html

they are in China having a shipping arrangement in Berlin, Germany.
The reason they are cheaper than me is because I charge VAT and they don't. They rely on HMRC Customs & Excise to overlook checking your parcel. After brexit, nevermind whichever deal, trans border shipment without invoices won't be allowed, you'll have to pay VAT at the border.

 

[GarethJ]

I wasn't aware that the Berlin based kits had skipped VAT. An EU based kit that would have had duties paid and wouldn't attract unknown delays and taxes/charges was part of the reason I bought it. If Yose are using the German hub to somehow get around VAT, I can understand that's going to be incredibly frustrating.

Further research into the "lights" function on the LCD suggests it only works if the controller is equipped. Which I don't think mine is. I'm sure I'll figure a way.

 

[Woosh]

I wasn't aware that the Berlin based kits had skipped VAT. An EU based kit that would have had duties paid and wouldn't attract unknown delays and taxes/charges was part of the reason I bought it.

Customs and Excise estimate that China based retailers (those based in China, not bona fide Chinese importers based in the UK) cost the government £1.5 BILLIONS every year in unpaid VAT, money much needed for public services
http://www.vatfraud.org/
The forum should really not help them to sell here, not pay UK VAT and unfairly compete against UK businesses.

 

[Woosh]

Do you think that we should stop recommendations to purchase from Chinese sellers not registered for VAT in the UK?

http://www.vatfraud.org/

The £27 Billion Online VAT Fraud
We have been campaigning against VAT Fraud by Overseas Online Retailers since 2014. HMRC’s own estimate of the fraud is £1.5 billion in lost VAT a year. This equates to £27 billion in lost sales revenue & additional taxes to UK businesses and the public purse in the last 3 years.
The number of overseas online retailers who have registered for VAT has risen from 700 in 2015 to 43,500 by the end of August 2018.
HMRC has only received £150 million in VAT from Overseas Sellers up to 30 June 2018. HMRC have made assessments of £160 million from over 1000 joint and several liability notices. HMRC hasn’t mentioned how much of the £160 million has been recovered. This equates to £37 million a year and represents only 3.89% of what should be collected.
HMRC has allocated £22.5 million over the next 5 years to tackle the fraud.

 

[vfr400]

It's nothing compared with how much they're wasting on HS2. The saving in non-paid VAT is passed on directly to us. If it bothers anyone, they always have the option to donate more tax to the government when they do their tax return or any other time. You're allowed to pay as much tax as you like with no limit whatsoever.

 

[Woosh]

It's nothing compared with how much they're wasting on HS2.

you may have made a valid observation about the scale of what our government does, but tax (in this case, VAT) evasion is a punishable offence. Theoretically, HMRC can go after you to recover the money 30 years after the offence.
When you buy from abroad, you are the importer and as such, are responsible for compliance with all the regulations regarding CE marking, electrical waste regulations and pay the required VAT on top of any import duty.

When you buy from Yosepower of PSWPower, you do not buy from an EU company, you are buying from China, you are importing from China, although delivery may be effected by a German fulfillment house.
If your bike is involved in an accident, the insurance companies will go after you, the importer, not the Chinese companies that sold you the goods.
You are also required to keep the form C79 to show that VAT has been paid.
flecc usually makes the point about giving good advice to forum members. He recently posts about the throttle. The probability of being caught may be small but the consequence is not.
I believe that it's time that we should stop recommending any purchase from non EU businesses.