Petition to increase speed assist limit on E bikes

[Gringo]

OP surly you knew what you were buying before you brought it ? and now it’s not good enough. it sounds like you need an S class bike and keep to the roads.
I’m not saying that you’re going to race along shared paths at 20mph but the law says a peddle can use them, as soon as the law changes some will, at the moment it’s only a few with illegal bikes who do.
the law as it stands is nation wide and not specifically targeted at the Welsh just to p[$$ you off.
Where I live there’s no 20mph roads so a 5mph increase would not be enough for me to keep up with traffic, on the other hand there are many busy shared cycle paths where at times 10mph can be too fast.
Everywhere we go there’s some amount of compromise whether on foot, in a wheelchair, riding bikes or driving cars.

 

[mike killay]

Gringo, I live in Wales and as you say, a 20 mph limit would be of no use. All the traffic here travels at 30mph minimum, generally 35mph.
I note that the OP says he lives in Wales, but where.?
Where I live, we do have a few local 20mph zones but they are in the main ignored and the Police do not enforce them.

 

[Ocsid]

In the final analysis what will kill it, is that nobody other than those cyclists that want to be motorised to go along our paths, tracks and through our precincts at 20 mph, will want to mix with those cyclists doing so.


Be very grateful we can at up to 16 mph, though worry with the growing number of e scooters, even that right might be subject to strong public pressure to be reviewed.

 

[TedG]

On a reasonably busy main road going out of Belfast a few months ago we were overtaken by a bloke in a hoodie - no obvious safety gear, on an e-scooter who was on the footpath. We were travelling around 12 mph and being alert but this chap was travelling considerably faster.
We are well used to all sorts of stuff overtaking us on the offside but something on the nearside was a first.
It would have to be said that his control was very "good" if that is the word I am looking for but IME on roads for over 55 years it was simply too fast for a footpath.
"Strong public pressure?"
I think it won't be far away.

 

[richtea99]

The kinetic energy of a 25Kg speed pedelec at 20mph is around 2.5 times that of a 15Kg bike at 15mph.
Push the speed even further to 25mph, and it's around 4 times the kinetic energy.

The kinetic energy transferred to a pedestrian is what determines the amount of damage to them.
Either speed - 20 or 25mph - makes a massive difference, as does the additional weight.

Controlling faster heavier vehicles also requires more skill.
The accidents will increase, both self-inflicted and upon others, and they'll not be pretty.

 

[flecc]

Gringo, I live in Wales and as you say, a 20 mph limit would be of no use. All the traffic here travels at 30mph minimum, generally 35mph.
I note that the OP says he lives in Wales, but where.?
Where I live, we do have a few local 20mph zones but they are in the main ignored and the Police do not enforce them.

Exactly the same in the London Borough of Croydon where, except for through routes, we have a borough wide 20 mph limit. The Metropolitan Police not only announced at the outset through the press that they would not be involved in enforcing it, they don't comply with it either in their routine patrols. For them it's about 30 in practice.

The 20 limit has had one good effect in that 40mph or more on the previously 30 limit signed local roads is no longer commonplace, but the argument that a 20 assist limit for pedelecs would enable them to keep up with the traffic on 20 limit signed roads is invalid since almost no drivers travel as slowly as that on them.
.

 

[R Benny Waered]

Gringo, I live in Wales and as you say, a 20 mph limit would be of no use. All the traffic here travels at 30mph minimum, generally 35mph.
I note that the OP says he lives in Wales, but where.?
Where I live, we do have a few local 20mph zones but they are in the main ignored and the Police do not enforce them.

That wasn't OP?

I'm in Cardiff and there is a plethora of new roadsigns stating 20mph in urban areas. Many of them are perfectly valid on residential roads and busy shopping areas and are a good thing. I believe it is a nationwide Welsh policy. As usual traffic adheres to them where they are reasonable and purposeful - maybe less so on through A roads that are wide with good visibility. Personally I'd welcome being able to do this lower limit rather than hunting around 15.5mph which in my opinion and experience is NOT the natural cruising speed on the flat - even more so for a Roadie. Just popped to the town centre on the Taff Trail and even 15.5 would have been grossly irresponsible on a shared path that got so busy in places. I take the point on kinetic energy but in over half a decade (inc London cycle commuting) I have never seen a pike/ped accident so its a v low risk in my experience.

 

[richtea99]

I take the point on kinetic energy but in over half a decade (inc London cycle commuting) I have never seen a pike/ped accident so its a v low risk in my experience.

You're quite right, they're pretty rare. The 2019 figures (RAS40004) are:
Pedestrians hit by bicycle .. 379
of which: killed .. 4
of which: seriously injured (unadjusted) .. 122
seriously injured (adjusted)4 .. 132

My point probably wasn't made very well. It's not the outright number of injuries & deaths, which would still be far less than those by cars. It's that they're much more likely to come to the attention of the press.

 

[R Benny Waered]

You're quite right, they're pretty rare. The 2019 figures (RAS40004) are:
Pedestrians hit by bicycle .. 379
of which: killed .. 4
of which: seriously injured (unadjusted) .. 122
seriously injured (adjusted)4 .. 132

My point probably wasn't made very well. It's not the outright number of injuries & deaths, which would still be far less than those by cars. It's that they're much more likely to come to the attention of the press.

Wow that is still a lot higher than I imagined so thanks for the research. Causation is easy to speculate on, but as you say it's all bad news all round at the end of the day. And my bell was in overdrive yesterday on shared paths...

 

[flecc]

Personally I'd welcome being able to do this lower limit rather than hunting around 15.5mph which in my opinion and experience is NOT the natural cruising speed on the flat - even more so for a Roadie.

That's a very British opinion and experience, not widely shared. Why do you think our type of pedelec law is so common thoughout the world, all with the same limits?

It's because for most of the world it makes perfect sense, since they ride bikes in a far more sensible way than so many Britons do.

It's here that we see so many leant forward, pedalling hard, grimfaced, helmeted and sometimes wearing lycra, trying hard to look like they are competing in the Tour de France.* Totally bonkers.

Pop over the channel to the Netherlands and the like and you see riders upright, wearing normal street clothing, without a helmet, pedalling without undue effort and ambling along at sensible speeds that are unlikely to see them or anyone else ever get hurt. Very sensible and never conflicting with their 25 kph (15.5 mph) assist limit. That's why they buy 28 times as many e-bikes as us, pro rata to population and why they don't have any complaint about the pedelec law.

Cycling is done in exactly the same way as far away as Africa, India, China and Japan, at speeds entirely suited to that form of transport, and it is that word transport that is the key to understanding. That is what most of the world regards cycling as, transport. Almost uniquely in Britain it so often seems to be regarded as sporting in nature, that impression reinforced by those two paragraphs above with the asterisk.

That in turn puts many others off attempting to cycle, accounting in no small measure for why so few cycle here and determinedly stick with driving.

To improve on all aspects of our cycling situation the very last thing we need is more assist speed. What is needed is the application of a blast of commonsense to our manner of cycling and attitude to cycling, recognising it as what it really is, a highly efficient alternative to walking for our daily transport, conducted in the same moderate and civilised way as we walk, albeit somewhat faster but with no more effort.
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[slowcoach]

I agree with all that flecc.
This morning, cycling along a narrow country lane. OK we were alongside each other but the road was straight and very quiet. Suddenly a lycra clad rushed past me, almost knocking me over to get through. Had he warned in some way, we would have made room. Seems too much effort for some to let others know they are there. Speed he was going would have qualified him for the Tours de France.

 

[mike killay]

I live near a common. During the first lock down I saw 5 or 6 young men 16-18 years of age pedalling a motley assembly of old bikes, not racing types, across the common.
They were doing 8-10mph, chatting, smoking and generally enjoying the outdoors.
They were outnumbered by mainly older, grim faced men in lycra on super lightweight bikes, straining along at 18-20mph.
I bet that the youngsters thoroughly enjoyed themselves exploring nature, the lycras probably hardly noticed it, their heads bent forward and down, their eyes on various cycle computers on their handlebars and an urgent need to do better.
That Peloton thing is only for utter idiots.

 

[MarcusT]

If you want a faster ebike, buy it, put a tag and insurance on it.
There you go

 

[Deleted member 33385]

If you want a faster ebike, buy it, put a tag and insurance on it.
There you go

It's crazy increasing the speed limit! Who wants to hit a car at 20mph? Bicycles, ebikes, riders nor pedestrians fare well with lower speed impacts.

 

[GSV3MiaC]

I don't want to fall off at more than 15mph.. Nor do I want to pick up the medical bill for some other damn fool who did it. Not like there are not already enough legal ways to wind up in hospital, why would we want to legalise some more?

 

[WheezyRider]

I don't like how this thread is taking a path of dividing people on bikes into different groups and presenting some as good and others as bad.

We all use bikes for all kinds of reasons and we shouldn't assume that someone wanting to go fast on a bike and wear a certain type of clothing is inherently wrong or is in some way bad.

I admire the way that some people can zip along at 30mph under their own steam and I also marvel at the 80 year old who every day steadily does the 10 mile trip from his home to town and back.

Neither is good or bad, they are just doing what suits their situation. There should be enough acceptance that people on bikes are all different and have different needs and therefore space should be made for them.

 

[flecc]

I don't like how this thread is taking a path of dividing people on bikes into different groups and presenting some as good and others as bad.

We all use bikes for all kinds of reasons and we shouldn't assume that someone wanting to go fast on a bike and wear a certain type of clothing is inherently wrong or is in some way bad.

I admire the way that some people can zip along at 30mph under their own steam and I also marvel at the 80 year old who every day steadily does the 10 mile trip from his home to town and back.

Neither is good or bad, they are just doing what suits their situation. There should be enough acceptance that people on bikes are all different and have different needs and therefore space should be made for them.

Indeed, it's about the tolerance we should have for all road users. I hate expressions like "battling through traffic" and "fighting for road space" since to me that is a wrong attitude.

We shouldn't do either, we should all think in terms about sharing road space and giving way to others. It's what we do on pavements, so why should the roads be any different?
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[Ocsid]

The issue however is bringing this into precincts, shared way, etc for anyone with the wherewithall to buy a pedelec. With a powered speed of 20 mph the freedoms and lack of restrictions, we enjoy, would IMO be short lived.
We don't have a big issue with self powered individuals doing so now apart from on some commute shared routes, but facilitate every buyer of an e bike to do so, issues will arise.

 

[flecc]

The issue however is bringing this into precincts, shared way, etc for anyone with the wherewithall to buy a pedelec. With a powered speed of 20 mph the freedoms and lack of restrictions, we enjoy, would IMO be short lived.
We don't have a big issue with self powered individuals doing so now apart from on some commute shared routes, but facilitate every buyer of an e bike to do so, issues will arise.

As posted much earlier, it won't happen because it cannot happen,

The government has already laid down markers, the most recent and very important one being that for the scooter trial. They've stated that if, after the trial, scooters are approved for public usage, they intend not the current expediency of the trial's 15 mph limit but a lower limit matching that the continent use, 20 kph / 12.5 mph. And that will only be for road use, never for pavements and shared paths. That's because if approved the scooters will be motor vehicles, though able to be ridden without a driving licence and third party insurance, like road going mobility chairs.

They've stated that is because they are treating the scooters like pedelecs in these repects.

It follows that, in addition to all the impossibilities I posted earlier, 20 mph for us will be out of the question if the scooters treated similarly to pedelecs are held to 12.5 mph and road going mobility chairs held to an 8 mph limit.
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[Zlatan]

I, m perfectly happy with speed limited to 15 mph... First of all safety... Might be subjective but somehow averaging 15 mph (or there abouts) is different entirely to 20 ish... IMHO it's the speed at which stuff gets dangerous...
Then there is the range... Powered at 20mph reduces range very significantly to powered at 15mph...Had a dongle on my bike when bought. On road I, d get 18 miles using 20 mph... Drop that to 15mph and range goes upto 30 ish....was that pronounced. I, d guess wind drag at 20mph is getting on double (or more??) than at 15mph...