Panasonic System Power Delivery Explanation

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I've often advised of the need to pedal slowly in order to get full power on these motor units, There's been a number of queries about this and I've seen comments posted that the hill climbing on the Kalkhoff Agattu was best around 9 mph, another that top gear only was needed and yet another comment that it's better on hills than the flat.

The reasons for all those on that bike with the standard rear sprocket is that 9.4 mph is the last speed in top gear at which full motor power is contributed, from then on up it reduces in four phased steps until it's zero at 15 mph.

EU law requires power to phase down as it approaches the 25 kph limit, but without the point specified and it certainly doesn't intend as early as 9 mph (14.4 kph). Also the zero point in EU law is 25 kph (15.62 mph), not 15 mph, so why those two discrepancies?

The reasons are both due to national laws.

First the easy one to explain. Where most EU countries use the electric pedal assist 25 kph limit, Germany has it's own 24 kph limit, so the German made Kalkhoff has it's 22 tooth rear sprocket chosen with that in mind so that power disappears by 24 kph (15 mph). To exactly match general EU law a 21 tooth sprocket is needed to give the slight increase to 25 kph (15.62 mph).

The explanation for the very early phase down is more complex, and it results from Japanese law on electric assist pedal cycles. The Japanese have determined that the maximum power allowable must not exceed the power the rider puts in (1 to 1), and that this should only be fully available within normal cycling speeds. Unfortunately for us, the Japanese have a very different view on cycling speeds to that of UK riders, They regard their common cycling speed as being 15 kph (9.4 mph), and for "sports" riders like our lycra brigade, 24 kph (15 mph), which would raise a laugh from UK club riders who can often average 20 mph for an hour in moderately hilly areas.

Since sports riders don't use electric assist bikes, only the "common" bike's speed is legislated for. Therefore in accordance with that, the Panasonic design has integral to it the phase down above full assist at 15 kph (9.4 mph) when the bike is in top gear.

But that's not the end of it, for Japanese law prescribes the power phase down slope as well. Since an analogue slope doesn't readily match digital electronic systems working, Panasonic have chosen to have four step downs giving a rough tail off of power corresponding with the legal requirement, which is expressed in Japanese law by this equation:

1 - ( [kph - 15] / 9 ) = assist factor

where kph is the road speed.

Quite simply what this means is the road speed in kph, minus 15 (the 1 to 1 power assist limit), then divided by 9 produces a result which is subtracted from 1.

In a practical example, at 20 kph (12.5 mph), taking 15 from that 20 kph gives us 5. Then that 5 divided by 9 gives 0.55 recurring. To complete the equation we take that 0.55 from 1 to give 0.45 or 45%, and that's the ratio of rider power that the motor is allowed to assist with at 12.5 mph.

At the lower speed of 11 mph (17.6 kph) using the same calculation, 17.6 minus 15 then divided by 9 and taken away from 1 gives 0.71 or 71% of the riders input given as motor assistance.

At the higher speed of 13 mph (20.8 kph), only 36% of rider input is given by the motor.

For the export markets Panasonic now have the High Power mode which gives 1.3 times assist, but this is not a blanket 1.3 times, it's 1.3 times full 1 to 1 assistance up to 9.4 mph, and then above that speed at 1.3 times the above equation percentage results. So the three examples given in declining order of assist with speed become 92% at 11 mph, 59% at 12.5 mph and 47% at 13 mph. You can see from that how speeding up from 11 mph to 13 mph by pedalling faster halves the help the motor gives you, whatever mode you are in, so making work for yourself.

Of course all these are for top gear, and since the motor drives through the gears, when you change down, the power phase down point and the power assist levels drop too. On the Agattu with the Shimano Nexus Inter-7 hub, dropping from 7th to 6th gear is a 13% drop, so that's what you take from the above. It means a maximum 1 to 1 power assist speed of 8.2 mph, down from 9.4 mph, but of course that is what makes these bikes such superb hill climbers, the ability to shift the maximum power down to a speed that copes with any hill, however steep.

For example, our 7 speed Agattu's bottom gear is 60% down on the top gear, so the maximum assist power is available from zero to 3.8 mph, about the slowest speed one could keep balance at. This means a moderately fit 75 kilo rider providing a reasonable 200 watts could climb a 1 in 3.7 (27% hill) at that speed in highpower mode, and one would have to search far and wide for a hill that steep, there being only a handful of them in Britain.

For those with lesser hills, the rear hub sprocket can be reduced to shift the phase down point and end point of power assistance upwards, the limit set by the steepest hill a rider needs to climb, and ultimately the limits of the motor's power to maintain a high road speed against wind resistance.

To adjust the above calculations after the rear sprocket is changed, divide the equation answer by the new sprockets number of teeth and multiply by the old number of teeth, which is 22.

Of course all this is on a "nice to know" basis, so there's no need to carry around a mathmetician with calculator on the carrier. In practice it's just a matter of slowing the pedal speed when more assistance is wanted, either by going slower or by changing up a gear The fastest cadence (pedalling rotations) for the maximum assist at 9.4 mph in top gear is a very leisurely 39 per minute, or 1.5 seconds per rotation.

You might feel that Panasonic should alter the internal power phase down system for the export markets, but there are very good reasons for not doing that. Most important is that not very much power is needed for riding on the flat at normal cycling speeds, so providing full power at those levels could waste battery current and reduce this system's excellent range. Another is that the quality of the pedelec system operation which this unit is so famed for could be impaired by sensing at higher pedal rotational speeds, the system used not suitable for that. Since the desired result can be achieved by changing the rear sprocket on the bike, gaining higher speeds without impairing the unit's operation, the design is best left as it is.

I've entered this on my Lafree / Kalkhoff website for future reference on this link:

Power levels
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Steveb63

Finding my (electric) wheels
Feb 2, 2008
22
0
Baildon (BD17)
Thanks for that Flecc - something to think about as I pedal Home tonight!

A quick question? - on the Agatu review you included some graphs showing gradients covered - is there an easy way to produce these or was it a case of an OS map and a pencil?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Thanks for that Flecc - something to think about as I pedal Home tonight!

A quick question? - on the Agatu review you included some graphs showing gradients covered - is there an easy way to produce these or was it a case of an OS map and a pencil?
I take it you mean the Sanoodi graphs of the routes covered?

If so, the Sanoodi site produces those automatically when you join up and enter a route of your own. For example, if you click the link below you'll see my cycling route into central Croydon. Scroll down and you'll see the elevation graph for that route. To copy that for the review routes, I just took a screenshot (keyboard PrintScrn button) and edited out the graph in Photoshop.

To Croydon
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john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
I already find it a little irritating that motor power output naturally reduces as it's speed increases (above peak power of about 50% top speed). The controller deliberately reducing power output further as speed increased and even more so as I pedalled faster would drive me mad :mad: I don't think this would be the bike for me. I suppose I could change my mind if I actually tried one (but I doubt it).
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I already find it a little irritating that motor power output naturally reduces as it's speed increases (above peak power of about 50% top speed). The controller deliberately reducing power output further as speed increased and even more so as I pedalled faster would drive me mad :mad: I don't think this would be the bike for me. I suppose I could change my mind if I actually tried one (but I doubt it).
That's why I stressed the difference in my review conclusions John.

However it does make it much more like a bicycle and it's much more likeable than it sounds. The smoothness of the transitions is important in this and it's much better than any hub motor phase down system, those being crude in comparison. The former Lafree series were held in great affection and there was a storm of protest when Giant discontinued them.

That can never have been said for any other e-bike.

It's very much a utility cyclist's machine though, definitely not a sports machine, despite the pretentions of such as the Pro Connect to emulate one. For anyone who enjoys utility and leisure cycling at moderate cadences it's great. It's not for those who really want a throttle controlled moped, and not particularly for those who want to race around at speed, though gearing up with a small rear sprocket can make them quite fast.
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Leonardo

Pedelecer
Dec 5, 2006
207
0
www.jobike.it
That's a wonderful explanation Flecc! Many thanks.
(And this kind of articles are the reason why I think this British forum to be the best e-bike forum on the international scene).
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Thanks for the link to sanoodi Flecc - that's just what I was looking for - This is the graph for my route to work!
That's not too bad going Steve, a fast downhill and then fairly gentle climbing that's ideal for an e-bike. :)

Home in the evening has the steep bit at the end of the run though, not so nice. :(
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sdesouza

Just Joined
Aug 21, 2008
4
0
Thanks for all the wonderful advice/information you have been providing Flecc.

Quick question: When you speak about "the maximum assist at 9.4 mph in top gear is a very leisurely 39 per minute, or 1.5 seconds per rotation" just wanted to confirm if the 39 rpm is the standard cutoff point (where the assist starts to decrease) for all gears or does it have some kind of sensor for detecting the force/torque being applied?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
The 39 cadence applies in all gears, but there is a pedelec torque sensor in addition. Therefore the potential amount is mainly governed by the cadence, but the torque sensor adjusts that to some extent.

Of course the explanation above is of the software and it's relationships to law, but there's a further explanation of the electro-mechanical aspects of the power delivery on my Lafree/Kalkhoff website. If you use the link below, you'll have a repairs page on the earlier model Panasonic unit, and in the lower half there's an explanation of the workings of the Torque sensor etc. Those are the same for the later unit as well.

The Panasonic unit
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Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
The 39 cadence applies in all gears, but there is a pedelec torque sensor in addition. Therefore the potential amount is mainly governed by the cadence, but the torque sensor adjusts that to some extent.

Of course the explanation above is of the software and it's relationships to law, but there's a further explanation of the electro-mechanical aspects of the power delivery on my Lafree/Kalkhoff website. If you use the link below, you'll have a repairs page on the earlier model Panasonic unit, and in the lower half there's an explanation of the workings of the Torque sensor etc. Those are the same for the later unit as well.

The Panasonic unit
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Does that mean the motor cuts out when either the torque or cadence reach the cutoff limit or when both reach the cutoff limit.
An assisted bike that won't assist above 40rpm is not doing much to promote good cycling practices.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Does that mean the motor cuts out when either the torque or cadence reach the cutoff limit or when both reach the cutoff limit.
An assisted bike that won't assist above 40rpm is not doing much to promote good cycling practices.
No, it doesn't cut out. If you refer to the explanation at the start of the thread, you'll see that a cadence of 40 is where the power gradually starts to reduce. That reduction gradually continues until the standard bike reaches the legal limit, when the last trace of power finally cuts out. At that legal limit, the cadence is 65.

There are additional layers of interaction. The torque sensor adjusts the power a little, and the power selector sets the overall level to which the former adjustments applies, but the above explanation covers all this.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Hi Flecc

Just wondering if you could hazard at a guess as to what sort of assistance I get from my Kalkhoff with a 28" tyre, the rear sprocket now being an 18T from the 23T in the Nexus gearing?

I tend to hit roughly a constant 20.0 mph on the flat in top gear, although I am not sure of what my cadence is for this, but expect it to be around the 60 mark.

In top gear, what assistance am I getting (would you suggest) at 15mph, 18mph, and at the 20mph, and also what is my cadence?

Is this calculable?

Thanks

John
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Hi John

I haven't got an exact equation for the variant units since that was intended only for Japanese law on the standard unit, and the Pro Connect is slightly up in power on the standard unit and the results may be slightly inaccurate on the assist factor.

The assist reads as 47% at 15 mph, 2% at 18 mph and 0% at 20 mph, meaning you're doing all the work at the highest speed. The Pro Connect variant could lift the assist a little at each point though, according to how Panasonic set the phase downs, but I still think you are doing the majority at the highest speed. These are for the standard power setting, so multiply by 1.3 for the high power setting.

The cadences are 54 at 15 mph, 65 at 18 mph and 72 at 20 mph.
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JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
1,048
1
Stockport, SK7
Thanks very much Flecc. Its good to know that my cadences have improved (I do struggle at working them out) :). Whats weird here is how easy it is to propel the Pro Connect at that 20mph. I can only assume that I am finally getting the muscle power I wanted, although the bike obviously helps me get there ;).

To my eyes there really isnt a lot in it at all between the Pro Connect and the old Twist. Yes the PC is quicker at getting up to speed, and quicker overall, but then it was designed to be. The Twist wasnt designed to be that fast, as it was meant to be a utility bike first. but it does give the PC a run for its money. If I were to strip down the Twist, I bet it would be even closer. It all goes to reinforce just what an outstanding bike the Twist was IMHO

I know it wasnt the most powerful, and it did not have the biggest battery life, but there was (and is) something about the assistance at the lower cadences only and in all gears that does (questionably) hit a spot.

I do understand that the cadence is to low if one were to ride always where you get the maximum assistance, and that would be bad for you, but I think that Panasonic deliberately made this cadence low, not for 'cycling grannies' as has often been said, but simply to give the assistance when riders need it, and not when they don't (e,g, me at 20mph). I am certain that the Panasonic system was never meant to be ridden at 40rpm, I believe that that is close to the lowest cadence that they assumed anyone would pedal at before changing gears.

Maybe I am looking too much into it, but in a way it does make sense. If you expect say 70 cadence from a rider thats taking it easy and can actually ride a bike reasonably, then you could say if that rider were struggling at some point their cadence and eventually gearing would change, and thats where the assistance kicks in.

It seems to make the bike more 'bike-like'. I dont know the answer, but I think theres something in that (somewhere). Certainly for me, having the bike help me ride it to its best, seems intuitive :confused: .

Am I making sense?

John
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
As long time Twist rider John, that makes perfect sense to me, and it illustrates how important it is to get to really know these bikes to get the best out of them, using them in a utility bike riding style no matter what they are used for.

Your mention of stripping the Twist reminds that for the US market they were all sold that way, stripped for performance since most over there use them as leisure vehicles.
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iaing

Pedelecer
May 27, 2008
129
0
L31
Nexus Sprocket

Hello
:confused:
My bike is the Kalkhoff Tasman with a Nexus SG-8R35 8 speed hub. Like other people I am contemplating changing the rear sprocket from 23T to 18 or 19T.

The Shimano sprocket part numbers, if I have got it right, are Y-322 03420 (18T) and Y-322 03520 (19T). Is this correct?

The existing one looks like the first two illustrations (forget the number of teeth).

Putting the above numbers into Google fails to find anything (bar the Pedelecs website). Entering “Shimano Nexus Sprocket” only finds the item illustrated at the bottom of the picture.

Where on Earth do I get the real thing from, please?
 

Attachments

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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
You don't have to have the Shimano ones, these are standard across Shimano, SRAM and most Sturmey hubs.

Most cycle dealers can supply them, I believe 50cycles may also be able to, and if still in difficulties, St Johns Cycles stock a full range.

On the link below, select the size from the dropdown menu, you need the 1/8th type:

SJS

P.S. Just found the genuine Shimano ones at Wiggle, they have one 18 tooth and two 19 tooth in stock.
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