Panasonic hub motor capability, as fitted to KTM e-bikes

[EddiePJ]

I was going to put efficiency in place of capability, but efficiency sounds too misleading, and whilst I often see it listed, I don't find it correct.

The sun was shining this morning, and with the Macina Lycan pulled down to service it, I decided to take the KTM e-Race P out for a ride today instead. The battery was showing four out it's five battery bar levels, and I figured that I would just do a 20 mile loop and back home again.

After having used the highest setting on the last ride, I opted to complete this ride in eco and set off to complete what turned out to be a 45 mile ride instead of 20 mile ride. I had hoped to reach the 50 mile point, but it became very windy, and started to hail and rain heavily, so I called it a day.

Strava link. https://www.strava.com/activities/488059846 and image below

The route consisted of 3,858ft of elevation gain, an average speed of 12.1mph, and a fastest speed of 42.3mph.

The reason for the thread is that I was truly surprised at how frugal the battery consumption was. As said, I started with four bars showing out of five available, and from this start point, the first bar dropped at almost exactly the 30 mile point. The second bar dropped, almost at the point of reaching home. But being truthful I had been putting in a fair bit of effort in on some of the many hills to maintain the eco setting, and I did waiver at the 40 mile point, and just put the bike in the auto setting to recoup some of my own energy.
I'm just very impressed that this kind of range is achievable when pushed, and with so little battery consumption. Sadly my knees wouldn't hack much more than 50 miles, whatever the circumstances, but I'd love to know what would be achievable by just using eco setting alone, on such varied terrain.

Obviously the above is very subjective to my own fitness level, be that good, bad or average, and the input that I put into the ride, but I still find it impressive.

Two worthy causes. The Cats Protection, and my stomach! (Not in that order)

The poor bike, didn't look so clean after this ride. That's three bikes that now require cleaning!

 

[RobF]

Battery capacity, rather than motor power, is almost an obsession with me.

Almost any ebike has enough grunt for my purposes, but battery capacity is always in the back of my mind.

Like you, 20 miles planned can turn into a much longer ride.

I've always thought most legal ebikes use about the same amount of battery capacity.

But perhaps the Panasonic hub motor is a bit more efficient than, say, a Bosch crank drive.

The Panasonic motor has a lot going for it in other respects.

It's compact, and reliable as far as I can gather, and the one I tried had a decent amount of poke.

 

[Artstu]

That's impressive, this 35.4 mile 13.5 mph average, and just over 6,000 feet of climbing ride used just shy of 700 whs. Mainly tour with higher on the steep bits.

How big is the battery?

 

[jdallan]

I'm amazed at your mileage Eddie; you're obviously putting in a lot more effort than I do on my EStyleP. (I think my legs are older than yours!) My usual 23 - 25 mile loop with quite a few hills, mostly on Auto setting usually leaves me with 2 bars showing. I seem to remember you have the 562Wh battery so that probably makes quite a difference; mine is the 412Wh.

Jim

 

[EddiePJ]

Artstu, this is the spec.

Rob, I have no idea of how the efficiency compares to the Bosch, and that is with me owning a Bosch powered bike.
I can only judge by my own experience, and the Macina Lycan is very much set up for off road use, and even the tyres take a massive toll on the battery. I think that the main reason being, that it takes a lot of effort to pedal the bike once the end of assist level is reached. This in turn means that very often, I intentionally ride almost at the cut off point to save energy.
The bike above is completely different to this, and is a pleasure to ride at any speed, although obviously like any e-bike, the additional weight is felt after a period time, but not really noticeably so.
Power to weight distribution is also an odd one between the two systems. I had to dismount on a hill, to navigate through some road works that had closed a small lane. The lane was very steep, and when I went to pull away in auto, the front end of the bike came straight up. This wouldn't have happened on the Bosch powered bike, and it kind of caught me out. After that I played around a bit, and barely had to pull the bars, to lift the front end. Once on level ground I then decided to play around further. It is easy to bunny hop the Bosch bike, where as the Panasonic rear hub, is like having a lead weight at the back of the bike. Interesting what you can learn from one ride.

I know that perhaps it sounds daft, but the bench mark for miles that I was hoping to get from the Panasonic powered bike, was fifty five miles. The sole reason being that the coast is 27 miles from me, and I love visiting the coast. 50 miles is still a struggle for my knees, not so much my fitness, and at least I now know that it is a doable ride, and potentially using higher assist levels.

jdallan, to be fair, I wouldn't have wanted ride much further just using eco, and I was starting to struggle. Also remember that for every uphill, there is a downhill. I wonder how much difference that there is between the two batteries?
What I would say though, it is a very pleasurable ride experience, although I wasn't so keen on the slight surge effect that auto gives. I also still hate the display console, which is almost impossible to use when wearing winter gloves. Going from no assist, then through auto, to get to the next setting of eco, also somehow seems strange to me. But again, that is just personal preference, and I could just be the odd one out that doesn't like it.

 

[jdallan]

jdallan, to be fair, I wouldn't have wanted ride much further just using eco, and I was starting to struggle. Also remember that for every uphill, there is a downhill. I wonder how much difference that there is between the two batteries?
What I would say though, it is a very pleasurable ride experience, although I wasn't so keen on the slight surge effect that auto gives. I also still hate the display console, which is almost impossible to use when wearing winter gloves. Going from no assist, then through auto, to get to the next setting of eco, also somehow seems strange to me. But again, that is just personal preference, and I could just be the odd one out that doesn't like it. [/QUOTE]

I don't mind the auto surge effect although I try to use eco as much as I can for obvious reasons. I agree that the display console could be better however I can cope with it fairly well using the winter gloves I have (admittedly quite light Jack Wolfskins). To be fair though, I never ride in the conditions, weather or terrain, that you do. I can see how the console would be more of a problem in bad conditions. What I have managed to do with an over-zealous button press on the odd occasion, is go from eco to no assist or first regen mode - that puts your gas at a peep!

Jim

 

[EddiePJ]

The Panasonic bike is strictly a fair weather, chilled pleasure bike only.

Which is sadly why I have ridden it twice so far. I'm looking forward to actually getting some decent weather.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Eddie...All my guys voted the KTM Panasonic hub bike as the best bike on test at Redbridge,it is still my personal favourite e-bike and the bike selected by KTM for the Bristol hill climb race.
KudosDave

 

[EddiePJ]

After getting muddy yesterday whilst out on the pedal bike, I decided to stay local today and see how the performance measured up using the 'standard' power setting. A boring 24 miles completed, using 50 % of the battery capacity, and all without traveling much more than a mile or so from my house. I must have been bored!!!!

23.9 miles completed
2,383ft of elevation gain
Average speed 12.1mph, which surprised me given how much stopping and turning that I did.
Max speed 29.3mph, not sure where that one came from either!

https://www.strava.com/activities/493214926

 

[RobF]

Much as I like the Bosch system, it has rather strangled the market for those of us who like quality bike bits.

Apart from Eddie's KTM/Panasonic, I can't think of many other quality hub ebikes.

There's the Stromer for more money, any others?

 

[anotherkiwi]

http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/

At the bottom of the page you have the companies using the go SwissDrive other than Stromer.

 

[flecc]

And as well as their classic motor, there's the Heinzmann direct drive motor directly competing with the SwissDrive, either in their own e-bikes or in kit form.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

I skipped some household chores this afternoon, to pop out in the freezing cold wind, in order to have another play.

I left the bike in 'auto' for today's 34.5 mile ride, which had an elevation gain of 2,962'

https://www.strava.com/activities/503582754



The bike returned with two of the five bars of battery level remaining.

 

[flecc]

The bike returned with two of the five bars of battery level remaining.

And clean too for a change!
.

 

[Cyclezee]

And as well as their classic motor, there's the Heinzmann direct drive motor directly competing with the SwissDrive, either in their own e-bikes or in kit form.
.

Any idea where you can get them

 

[flecc]

Any idea where you can get them

Yes, from this link.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

Eddie...All my guys voted the KTM Panasonic hub bike as the best bike on test at Redbridge,it is still my personal favourite e-bike and the bike selected by KTM for the Bristol hill climb race.
KudosDave

Just for a bit of fun and nothing scientific to it, myself and a friend took both the Macina Lycan and the e-race P out for some comparative testing today.

I'm knackered!!!!

We did 28 miles in total, and took in Kidds hill (Official 100 climbs No19 The Wall) https://www.strava.com/segments/610650

The surprise to me was just how fast and effortless that the Panasonic hub bike climbed, when compared with the Bosch Performance system. The Panasonic powered bike was 31 seconds faster over the 1 mile run of Kidds.
That's quite a significant time difference, and I'd also guess that it was in front by 200 metres at the steeper top section.
What I would say, is that the Hutchinson tyres fitted to the Bosch bike, are horrid on road and drag like hell.

Interestingly though, the Bosch system blew the Panasonic hub into the weeds on acceleration from a standing start.

A well deserved coffee stop.

 

[stevieb]

The Panasonic bike is strictly a fair weather, chilled pleasure bike only.


just wondering why this is eddie?
is the panasonic hub drive a lot better than most hub bikes for off road and how does it compare with your crank drives?
thanks

 

[EddiePJ]

stevieb, I intentionally wanted a hub drive bike, as to me they give a more leisurely ride. I already had the Macina Lycan, which is far more focussed as an off road bike. Sometimes it's nice to relax a bit.

The differences off road are quite interesting (to me) Based upon the BH and the KTM, the hub drive does have a couple of advantages. From my own experience, I found that when pulling away, traction could be better applied, with less tendency to spin up, and also when say reaching something that you might struggle for pedal clearance, and extra hard pedal stroke, can be enough to fool the system into given you a valuable split second of extra free power.

Weight distribution is a tricky one. The first and most obvious thing that I notice when jumping onto the hub drive bike, is just how light that the front end is, and just how easy that the front wheel lifts into the air. It makes for some interesting and sometimes fun climbing, and is very useful for when hoping over things. The back end is the opposite though, and the motor weight is very self evident.
Jumping onto the Bosch bike, the distribution of weight is more even and balanced, but the front end weight is certainly more noticeable.
I love both types of system, and don't really have a particular preference for when riding off road, but I do get more concerned at cleaning time in relation to washing a hub drive bike down.

 

[stevieb]

thanks for that info eddie.
very interesting
i know what you mean about interesting climbing with a lighter front end because i am finding that the main restriction on the steeper gradients is my inability to keep the front end on the ground.
i can,t help thinking that the weight distribution of the crank drives may help combat this ?