Our replacement for the EU?

[flecc]

This is an unashamed attempt to replace the Brexit thread with something more constructive and sensible for the same protagonists.

I believe many think The Commonwealth is an outmoded relic of little use to anyone, but if so that is a very big mistake. Consider the facts:

It has 53 member countries in all six populated continents.

It comprises almost a third of the entire world population

It includes the equal largest country, India, and Nigeria, soon to be larger than the USA.

It has been growing with member countries added in the 1990s and 2000s.

There's a queue of seven countries wanting to join to make it even bigger.

It's an organisation of friends who want to be together.

It is disciplined, only two countries ever being put on the naughty step for a while.

Since the late 1940s when British was dropped from its name, it's a body of equals.

It has a tiny bureaucracy.

The last thing I'd want is for that to be changed into something with the legal and constitutional complexity of the EU, but I think it's a nucleus which could be a combined power in the economic world.

We could promote the new idea of The Commonwealth presenting a combined front to the rest of the world on trade agreements, thus becoming potentially the world's largest and most powerful economic unit within which we all remain equals. If the rest of the world wanted to trade with any of us, it would have to be on terms which suited us all, unencumbered by accompanying social and political restrictions.

The existence of the World Trade Organisation and similar show that this is a practical suggestion for one that suited us and many others better, and for once it could be independent of the USA.

Discuss.

 

[SteveRuss]

Isn't the Queen the head of the commonwealth?

It could probably be a better system than the EU has proved to be so far. Funny though that you are the only person I have heard mention it for some time.

 

[trex]

we've gone way past the confines of the CW. The EU is essentially the Single Market. It has taken European countries half a centrury to get to the point where one could realistically grow up in Germany, go to university in the UK, work in France and retire to Italy.
Geography aside, there are just too much differences in H&S, construction norms, wages and social protection to contemplate a single CW market.

 

[Alan Quay]

Isn't the Queen the head of the commonwealth?

The Queen is, presumably because she said yes. The position does not automatically go to the British Monarch, nor is it inherited.

 

[flecc]

Isn't the Queen the head of the commonwealth?

Titular head only. The Commonwealth for some while has been able to include countries that were never in the Britsih Empire so had no constitutional allegiance to our monarch. For example, Mozambique joined in 1995 and Ruanda joined in 2007, despite once being part of the French Empire.
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[flecc]

we've gone way past the confines of the CW. The EU is essentially the Single Market. It has taken European countries half a centrury to get to the point where one could realistically grow up in Germany, go to university in the UK, work in France and retire to Italy.
Geography aside, there are just too much differences in H&S, construction norms, wages and social protection to contemplate a single CW market.

That's not the lines I'm thinking on though. There's the WTA for example, within which all manner of countries can reach agreements to trade.

In other words flexible, tolerant and very different from the EU's "one country" like rigid arrangements. As a third of the planet we wouldn't have to do what others do, instead co-operating as the club of friends we've always been. Others could like it or lump it for all we needed to care.

Rigid trade agreements are a very recent development, but the countries of the world have been trading for over 5000 years. I'm sure all the countries along the Silk Route had no rigid trade agreements. They just worked together for the common good.
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[trex]

that one country aspect is what a lot of people are attracted to. One of the best examples is European healthcare.

 

[flecc]

that one country aspect is what a lot of people are attracted to. One of the best examples is European healthcare.

I agree and I like it and wanted to remain. But if we do exit and that is done rather messily to our continuing disadvantage, maybe another way becomes attractive. What I'm suggesting in this thread would result in a lower living standard than that we've enjoyed, but so will Brexit for a long time.

The big attraction of a Commonwealth solution is it's a British solution within a British institution which contains so many who were once British and who still speak English. The British will feel far more at peace with that than the EU solution of partnership with those who've been so often and for so long our enemies, with none having English as their native language.
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[trex]

you mean a solution that satisfies our need to control others? I don't think it's going to work.

 

[anotherkiwi]

A bit of a ramble some of which is on topic...

For me Commonwealth means "The Games" and colonialist imperialism. I have memories of a Commonwealth where all the "wealth" bit went to the UK because industry there (remember when you had that?) profited from low raw material prices. I am a pure product of imperialistic colonisation and a member of the first generation which doesn't have the right to "move back" from a Commonwealth country and settle in the UK.

I also remember when you joined the EU. The nasty EU that you all hate so much saw the risk to the NZ economy and wrote in a special clause permitting NZ exports to the UK without tariffs for a few years, the time for NZ to find new clients. Now wasn't that a sign of a blind bureaucracy without a soul! One of the new clients NZ found for meat products was France, there is not a single lambs brain eaten in France which doesn't come from NZ, OK then, 3 or 4 might be from somewhere else ... The cosmetics industry is one of the largest importers of bile, I eat New Zealand oignons in the off season and most surprising Kiwi plastic products (lunch boxes and whatnot) in my supermarket in Spain! The EU is the third trading partner of NZ after Australia and China.

I think for Europeans the EU is the best idea and 52% of you have just told us they aren't European. The rest of you are welcome, lots of space to set up your businesses. Nice weather and better (arguably) food. Great health care and warm friendly people if you learn a smattering of the language and don't confine yourself to an English only ghetto. If you are broad minded with a bit of curiosity, a solid sense of humour and imagination you will do very well here.

In the Point today a very depressing article about the Calais camp where a tiny percentage of youth there would accept another destination than the UK.
That settles that then, the camp moves to Dover!

 

[flecc]

you mean a solution that satisfies our need to control others? I don't think it's going to work.

I don't see it that way, it's not about control but about familiarity.

As for whether it could work, such informality worked for most of the last 5000 years, rigid trading agreements being a very recent and troubled phenomena.

It just needs us to adopt similar laid back attitudes to those that are so common in many of the Commonwealth countries. Muddle through together.
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[flecc]

A bit of a ramble some of which is on topic...

For me Commonwealth means "The Games" and colonialist imperialism. I have memories of a Commonwealth where all the "wealth" bit went to the UK because industry there (remember when you had that?) profited from low raw material prices. I am a pure product of imperialistic colonisation and a member of the first generation which doesn't have the right to "move back" from a Commonwealth country and settle in the UK.

I also remember when you joined the EU. The nasty EU that you all hate so much saw the risk to the NZ economy and wrote in a special clause permitting NZ exports to the UK without tariffs for a few years, the time for NZ to find new clients. Now wasn't that a sign of a blind bureaucracy without a soul! One of the new clients NZ found for meat products was France, there is not a single lambs brain eaten in France which doesn't come from NZ, OK then, 3 or 4 might be from somewhere else ... The cosmetics industry is one of the largest importers of bile, I eat New Zealand oignons in the off season and most surprising Kiwi plastic products (lunch boxes and whatnot) in my supermarket in Spain! The EU is the third trading partner of NZ after Australia and China.

I think for Europeans the EU is the best idea and 52% of you have just told us they aren't European. The rest of you are welcome, lots of space to set up your businesses. Nice weather and better (arguably) food. Great health care and warm friendly people if you learn a smattering of the language and don't confine yourself to an English only ghetto. If you are broad minded with a bit of curiosity, a solid sense of humour and imagination you will do very well here.

I completely agree everything you've posted and that the EU is best for us. But out of it means we may well need something else, rather than being all alone. The Commonwealth you remember no longer exists and hasn't for a very long time.
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[trex]

let's just wait and see. I don't see the CW is the answer. IDS voiced the word 'neverendum' today in the Sun (where else?)
If brexit was such a good idea, more voices would have added to his demand.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I completely agree everything you've posted and that the EU is best for us. But out of it means we may well need something else, rather than being all alone. The Commonwealth you remember no longer exists and hasn't for a very long time.
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God I'm getting old... But since I have lived my whole adult life in the EU I have become out of touch with what the Commonwealth is now I suppose. I will have to take an Englishman's word that "it is better now". My fear is that many living in the UK have the same old view of the Commonwealth that I have and nostalgia for the days of the Empire... That theory may have been proved by a recent referendum (pun intended)

 

[flecc]

My fear is that many living in the UK have the same old view of the Commonwealth that I have and nostalgia for the days of the Empire... That theory may have been proved by a recent referendum (pun intended)

I'm sure this is true, but if it makes them happy, what's the harm?

The Commonwealth has quietly had numerous changes. Initially Britain stood down as leading it, instead making it a club of equals. Then the membership rules were changed to allow more tenuous Empire connections to allow membership, and more recently these rules were changed again allowing a wide range of memberships. The fact that there's a queue (how British!) of seven countries wanting to join is an indication of how different and attractive it's become for many.

The next Commonwealth meeting is scheduled for 2018.
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[mike killay]

that one country aspect is what a lot of people are attracted to. .

Equally, it was the one sticking point that so many of us found repulsive.

 

[trex]

Mike, put yourself for a minute in the place of flud's daughter living and working in the South of France. My children live and work in Europe too.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Flecc....good idea but there has been an enormous amount of work harmonising Europe. I am currently trying to import compressors into the UK,6 years ago there was loads of different standards throughout Europe,we had our own standard under JS.
In April 2016 the EU team have harmonised all these standards under a single Euro standard,we can all trade with each other using the one accepted standard,the familiar CE marking.
If we leave the EU but don't retain access to their standard we will only be able to sell compressors in the UK,a relatively tiny market.
Our own electric bike industry has a common standard under EN 15194, we can all sell under that standard throughout Europe,but imagine if we were deleted from that standard....we could fall back on our old standard but that would mean we could only sell e-bikes into the UK.
I don't know what standards Commonwealth countries would accept but I bet that they would use the CE standard,we could be eliminated from trading with many countries unless we had access to that standard.
I bet the guy from Hartlepool who was excited about the leave vote didn't care and still doesn't care that we will not be able to sell compressors into the EU and many other countries,unless of course,his company makes compressors,in which case he is on the dole,not so excited now.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Flecc....good idea but there has been an enormous amount of work harmonising Europe.

Agreed and it's what I want to keep with. But if that doesn't happen we may need new ways.

If we leave the EU but don't retain access to their standard we will only be able to sell compressors in the UK,a relatively tiny market.

Not just selling to the UK in a Commonwealth solution, The Commonwealth is almost one third of this planet and a huge market, over four times the size of the EU.
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[Kudoscycles]

Agreed and it's what I want to keep with. But if that doesn't happen we may need new ways.



Not just selling to the UK in a Commonwealth solution, The Commonwealth is almost one third of this planet and a huge market, over four times the size of the EU.
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I already have many good customers in Australia,New Zealand,South Africa so I think we are already strong in those countries.
KudosDave