Orbit Tandem & Woosh DWG22c 48v rear hub kit

[Jodel]

I'm definitely a fan of Marathons - and especially the Marathon Plus. I know they are very heavy and can sometimes feel like you're peddling through treacle*, but not having to stop to fix punctures is a big advantage for me. In over 10 years and 1,000's of miles of using them, I've never had a puncture with a Marathon Plus and only one with a normal Marathon.

I've used the Marathon Supreme too - they roll much better and are more comfortable, but nothing like as bullet proof as the Marathon Plus.

* That feeling is eliminated when you have a motor to help!

 

[tandemfans]

Hi Jodel,
Ray here again, still pondering. Im attaching a pic of the rear axle, Is this pretty similar to what you have on your Orbit? The axle is splined not square taper. Measuring between the stays I have just shy of 70mm available so shouldnt encounter any problem fitting a suitable width tyre.The pic with the rule doesnt really show the actual width but was the best I could do. Were the throttle and the brake cut outs included in the kit or separate.
Look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Jodel]

Hi Ray, my tandem uses 'traditional' square taper bottom brackets rather than Hollowtech II type, but that shouldn't really matter. Woosh can supply a split ring magnet disk so that you can fix this to the inner chainring instead of fitting over the BB axle. You could of course use a square taper PAS disk, just drill it out to fit (24mm if I remember) but the split disk is probably an easier option.

If you look on the Woosh web-site there is a lot of info about fitting the kits, so well worth having a read: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits

All the bits you need are included in the kit, including the brake cut outs and the throttle.

They also suggest you read through the fitting manual / guide prior to buying a kit so that you understand what is involved: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/manuals/Hubkit-Manual-June21.pdf

It doesn't look like you'd have any problem with a wider tyre, but your mudguard appears to be quite a snug fit (although that may just be the angle of the photo). Do you have sufficient clearance for a larger diameter tyre? Bear in mind that the diameter / circumference of a wider tyre will be a bit bigger. My Orbit is OK with a 622 x 40 Marathon Plus and I could probably get away with a 622 x 42 and still retain my mudguards. I think if I wanted to go up to a 622 x 47 or 622 x 50, I'd have to remove the mudguards. I have SKS 45mm wide mudguards fitted to my bike at the moment.

Hope this helps.

 

[tandemfans]

Hi Ray, my tandem uses 'traditional' square taper bottom brackets rather than Hollowtech II type, but that shouldn't really matter. Woosh can supply a split ring magnet disk so that you can fix this to the inner chainring instead of fitting over the BB axle. You could of course use a square taper PAS disk, just drill it out to fit (24mm if I remember) but the split disk is probably an easier option.

If you look on the Woosh web-site there is a lot of info about fitting the kits, so well worth having a read: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits

All the bits you need are included in the kit, including the brake cut outs and the throttle.

They also suggest you read through the fitting manual / guide prior to buying a kit so that you understand what is involved: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/manuals/Hubkit-Manual-June21.pdf

It doesn't look like you'd have any problem with a wider tyre, but your mudguard appears to be quite a snug fit (although that may just be the angle of the photo). Do you have sufficient clearance for a larger diameter tyre? Bear in mind that the diameter / circumference of a wider tyre will be a bit bigger. My Orbit is OK with a 622 x 40 Marathon Plus and I could probably get away with a 622 x 42 and still retain my mudguards. I think if I wanted to go up to a 622 x 47 or 622 x 50, I'd have to remove the mudguards. I have SKS 45mm wide mudguards fitted to my bike at the moment.

Hope this helps.

Hi Jodel, thanks for the speedy reply. I'll bear that in mind when I order. Yes the mudguard Is a snug fit so would need to be changed. Looks I might be getting a winter project. Fingers crossed it all goes ok. Thanks again. Regards Ray

 

[tandemfans]

Hi Jodel, thanks for the speedy reply. I'll bear that in mind when I order. Yes the mudguard Is a snug fit so would need to be changed. Looks I might be getting a winter project. Fingers crossed it all goes ok. Thanks again. Regards Ray

Hi Jodel,
Well I took the plunge and ordered and due tomorrow.
Got home from a walk yesterday and there it was by the back door so the work begins.
Andy at Woosh said the best route would be a seat post mounted sensor so thats what's come and the split magnetic ring. I think you used the split magnetic ring didnt you? How have you fixed it to the chainwheel?
It has a plastic bracket to affix with cable ties but at the moment cant see any satisfactory way of using it but I dont think there would be sufficient space for that and the ring anyway.
I think with just the ring in situ there would be just about enough space/clearance.
We usually have a 28 tooth inner but ive changed it back to the old 30 tooth one for now at has a few slots I thought may be useful which the smaller ring doesnt have but no joy yet.
I cant believe Im going to fail at the 1st hurdle and just hoping I cant see the wood for the trees.
Hoping you can offer some ideas. Thanks Ray

 

[Woosh]

use a bit of the black double sided sticky fixers that come with the kit over the 5 ring bolts to stick the magnet ring to the chain ring.
Later, when everything is working, you can use araldite or add some small 3mm bolts through the ring bolt holes to make the fix permanent.

 

[Jodel]

What Woosh said above.

I have square taper BB's so used an 'ordinary' magnet disk. If space is tight, you don't need the plastic backing plate. As Woosh said, just use double sided tape / blu-tac or anything really to hold the magnet disk in place until you have the positioning correct and can verify that it triggers the motor when you turn the cranks. You can then make it a bit more permanent with small bolts.

It doesn't have to be fixed in an especially robust manner. There is no force applied to the magnet disk, it just needs to be able to register the crank rotation with the PAS on the bike.

 

[tandemfans]

Thanks both. Got it attached with the double sided tape for now. Will address permanent fixing once we're up and running.. not alot to work with on the chainwheel unfortunately. On to the wheel next

 

[Norgy]

Hi Jodel.

I have a dawes tandem i want to convert to rear electric hub motor.
I am a good rider but the mrs is enthusiastic but its hard graft up hill as all tandems are, but hills are where its at if you know what i mean.
How are you getting on with the 250w motor and is it enough for a 30 or 40 mile ride in the hills?

Mark

 

[Jodel]

Hi Mark,

As you are no doubt aware, range estimates are really difficult to make as every rider's effort level is different and terrain / weather can make big differences too.

That said, we're both in our 60's so hardly in the first flush of youth and no longer putting out anything like as much power as we used to in our younger days. The all up weight of the tandem plus riders is probably around 165Kg and the motor has no trouble propelling us. To try and give you some indication though, we rarely use more than power Level 2 of the 5 Levels available. Level 2 (assistance to about 11 mph) has taken us up any hill we have encountered - we live in Edinburgh and there are plenty of hills! Other than hill climbing / headwinds, I think most of the time, we're normally riding above the speed that the motor would cut in, so not using any battery power.

One of the biggest benefits of the motor is starting off from rest or regaining speed after having been baulked by dog-walkers on shared paths. The motor just whisks you back to cruising speed in no time at all and there's no stress on the old knees. The throttle control is great for quickly boosting speed to make sure you get safely through traffic lights or not obstructing cars when setting off from the lights. Hill starts are no longer an issue and as you'll know, that can be 'fun' on a tandem.

I think the furthest we've travelled without recharging was about 50 miles on our 12Ah battery. Fully charged the battery shows 54.2 volts on my multimeter and the lowest reading I've taken is 47.1 volts after almost 50 miles covered, so it still had a bit to go. For us, even with a strong headwind (no shortage of them in Scotland) and a fair bit of hill climbing, the battery still has plenty of power after 30 miles, albeit with a bit of voltage sag on the steeper hills.

We've done over 2,000 miles now with the motor and it's a great thing to have. You'll definitely go out more on your tandem if you do decide to go ahead.

There have been very few drawbacks to my conversion and I'd stick with a rear hub drive if I was doing it again. I have had a few broken spokes, but that isn't unusual on a tandem and as the hub is only a 36 hole, it was not entirely unexpected. The original (tandem specific) Shimano hub was a 40 spoke which is a fair bit stronger.

I recently rebuilt my hub motor with a Ryde Sputnik rim / Sapim strong spokes and I also used spoke washers at the hub to try and get a decent 'set' for the spoke heads. I had a look at the wheel building video on the 'Grin' website https://ebikes.ca/learn/wheel-build.html and I laced the wheel as a single cross with all spoke elbows out, so I'll see how that goes. The wheel has done about 200 miles since the rebuild and all seems well.

 

[sjpt]

Hi Jodel.

I have a dawes tandem i want to convert to rear electric hub motor.
I am a good rider but the mrs is enthusiastic but its hard graft up hill as all tandems are, but hills are where its at if you know what i mean.
How are you getting on with the 250w motor and is it enough for a 30 or 40 mile ride in the hills?

Mark

We converted a more basic (Viking) tandem with a more basic (XF07 front) Woosh conversion about 3 1/2 years ago. I mostly agree with what Jodel says above. A couple of points.

The XF07 is underpowered (as Woosh warned at the time), but it was the only legal kit for 700c wheel available just then. It helps a lot and gets us up hills we could no longer get up alone, but it still leaves us with plenty of work to do, and we still need our fairly low low gears.

I think we get around 30 miles from our 13aH 36v battery. Voltage sag is significant on hills. I suspect it would be less with the bigger battery (more cells in parallel, or more powerful cells). We average a bit over 70 (years), not normally riding at much more than 12mph, so the motor is always working. Typically in assist level 2 of 5.

Front wheel is often not recommended because of slipping on hills. This isn't nearly as important on a tandem as on a solo because of weight distribution; and the two wheel drive effect is often helpful on slippery surfaces like damp grass. (we don't do serious off-road). Rear hub is still probably better, but don't discount front hub.

 

[tandemfans]

Hi Mark,
Can't offer such comprehensive reply as Jodel ,who was most helpful when I was fitting a kit. We too have an Orbit, Pegasus pro with 700c wheels. The conversion, same motor as Jodel but with rack battery not frame fitting. Despite being a bit worried about the conversion, with hints from Jodel and Mike and Andy at Woosh, all was reasonably simple and went well. Itching to get out and see what it's capable of. Initial rides around our hilly estate have proved a revelation. Mostly level 2 assist is ample. We've been on one 'proper' ride, 30 miles, with our least favourite hill right at the end. Battery wasn't fully charged before start and only dropped to 4 bars climbing the final hill. We usually crawl up this hill at 3 to 4 mph and are gasping at the top. I did switch to max assist and we flew up it, 11 to12 mph. We were still working but a far more pleasant experience. As you say it's the hills that make or break a ride. As with Jodel our all up weight is about 165 kg and we are 64 and 59 respectively. I will report back here when we have more miles under our wheels but initially everything looks great.
Regards Ray

 

[Jodel]

Ray,

Great to hear that you're enjoying the new motor. It sounds like your experience of it is similar to ours - it's a fair bit more powerful than we expected. On one of our regular routes, we sometimes have to face quite a steep hill on our way home and occassionally I use Level 3 to whizz up it. There is some voltage sag (I've seen the display drop down to 3 or sometimes 2 bars before recovering) but there is certainly no lack of 'oomph' from the motor.

 

[sjpt]

The DWG22C looks ideal. Very nearly half as much torque again as our XF07, 60 vs 42 according to https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits (scroll to 'WHICH MOTOR?'), which is why they recommend it. Perhaps we'll treat ourselves when I hit 80?

 

[Norgy]

Well thanks all.
Didn't expect such a response. Why are we all oldies on tandems??
I am going ahead from your replies for a dwg22c kit, rear wheel, big battery.
Will post again with the results...
Thanks again.
Norgs

 

[Jodel]

Keep us posted Norgs - it's always good to hear about the experiences of other riders.

 

[Norgy]

12AH frame battery or 15AH rack battery????

Weight over the back vs distance security for 50 milers.... mmmm.

Any experience of the rack version out there at 15AH??

Norgs

 

[sjpt]

No direct experience of that battery, just a couple more points to add to your equation. As well as giving increased range I think a bigger battery is likely to have a longer life (fewer discharge cycles for the same about of energy) and less voltage sag (more parallel cell groups or more potent cells). We chose the 13ah/36v for ours, and I now wish we'd paid the extra for 17ah/36v; we were trying to keep the cost down without buying stupidly cheap bits as we didn't know how we'd get on with e-tandem at all (great it turns out).

I may be wrong about those extra advantages, and we wouldn't have had the extra downside of rack for bigger battery, and the difference between 13/17 is more than 12/15.

 

[Jodel]

The rack battery will obviously give you a bit more range, but in my experience the frame mounted 12Ah is perfectly adequate. If a higher capacity frame mounted battery (in the same size case) had been available, I'd probably would have picked it over the 12Ah - you can never have too much power! However, my real world testing has shown the 12Ah to be quite sufficient.

Only you know the amount of effort you'll put in yourself and the conditions in which the bike will be used.

My preference was for a frame mount to try to keep weight central and low down on the bike. As you can see from my earlier photos, I mounted the battery on the 'boom tube' for that reason. As we have the smallest frame size, it's a very tight fit and a bigger size case wouldn't fit that position.

I've attached a snapshot of my 'farmboy' calculations / record of how my own battery has performed. Based on the type usage we give the bike, 50 miles range is easily achievable. As the battery power is used up, you can notice a bit less 'oomph' in comparison to a fully charged pack but it is still capable of providing lots of help on the hills!

I found another chart somewhere on the internet showing battery voltage and estimated % left which might help too.

 

[tandemfans]

Hi Mark,

As you are no doubt aware, range estimates are really difficult to make as every rider's effort level is different and terrain / weather can make big differences too.

That said, we're both in our 60's so hardly in the first flush of youth and no longer putting out anything like as much power as we used to in our younger days. The all up weight of the tandem plus riders is probably around 165Kg and the motor has no trouble propelling us. To try and give you some indication though, we rarely use more than power Level 2 of the 5 Levels available. Level 2 (assistance to about 11 mph) has taken us up any hill we have encountered - we live in Edinburgh and there are plenty of hills! Other than hill climbing / headwinds, I think most of the time, we're normally riding above the speed that the motor would cut in, so not using any battery power.

One of the biggest benefits of the motor is starting off from rest or regaining speed after having been baulked by dog-walkers on shared paths. The motor just whisks you back to cruising speed in no time at all and there's no stress on the old knees. The throttle control is great for quickly boosting speed to make sure you get safely through traffic lights or not obstructing cars when setting off from the lights. Hill starts are no longer an issue and as you'll know, that can be 'fun' on a tandem.

I think the furthest we've travelled without recharging was about 50 miles on our 12Ah battery. Fully charged the battery shows 54.2 volts on my multimeter and the lowest reading I've taken is 47.1 volts after almost 50 miles covered, so it still had a bit to go. For us, even with a strong headwind (no shortage of them in Scotland) and a fair bit of hill climbing, the battery still has plenty of power after 30 miles, albeit with a bit of voltage sag on the steeper hills.

We've done over 2,000 miles now with the motor and it's a great thing to have. You'll definitely go out more on your tandem if you do decide to go ahead.

There have been very few drawbacks to my conversion and I'd stick with a rear hub drive if I was doing it again. I have had a few broken spokes, but that isn't unusual on a tandem and as the hub is only a 36 hole, it was not entirely unexpected. The original (tandem specific) Shimano hub was a 40 spoke which is a fair bit stronger.

I recently rebuilt my hub motor with a Ryde Sputnik rim / Sapim strong spokes and I also used spoke washers at the hub to try and get a decent 'set' for the spoke heads. I had a look at the wheel building video on the 'Grin' website https://ebikes.ca/learn/wheel-build.html and I laced the wheel as a single cross with all spoke elbows out, so I'll see how that goes. The wheel has done about 200 miles since the rebuild and all seems well.

Hi Jodel, just wondering how your wheel rebuild has stood the test of time.
We've done just over 1200 miles miles post conversion and all has been well apart from a couple of hiccups. Out the other day and suffered our 1st broken spoke. 2 by the time we got back to the caravan . Andy from woosh initially thought they had some spokes but unfortunately that proved notnto be the case but he has given me a link to someone that can supply them .
Am just wondering if this might be a problem starting to develop and whether it might be worth building a whole new wheel. Trouble is I've never tackled the dark art of wheel building and am not sure where to start ,ie getting correct length spokes, never mind the truing bit .
When replacing spokes in the original wheel did you use different length spokes on either side of the wheel/hub, we've got 1 gone on each side.
I'll have a look at the wheel building link you mentioned but would be interested to hear how the new wheel is behaving.
Hoping you're still out there
regards Ray