Oh I seem to have messed up!

MontyPAS

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2020
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I never saw the frame in question but I believe it was at the seat end, I have seen the same thing happen even on steel frames...and you haven't with all your experience ? I don't believe that sorry vfr it happens and you know it.

Here's another one to ponder over, that same friend of mine (him again) had a mishap when we were out on a cycle run some years ago. We were flying down a hill touching 40 odd on pushbikes and when we got to the bottom he pulled up to a sharp stop and pointed to his front light. The bracket holding the light had snapped off and the light was dangling touching the front wheel...a close shave indeed could have been nasty.
Taking a close look I saw it was a home-brew job fashioned out of aluminium bent into shape, it had failed I believe because of stress fractures and continual vibration that would occur as a result of a fixture holding an object at one point of attachment.
That's exactly why quality alloy folding bikes now have abutments welded into the frames at the hinges for added strength, I was one of the people who campaigned to get that done after much discussion with manufactures.
Were you aware Halfords stopped selling Carrera Banshees because of stress fractures in the chain stays due to poor design & welding, I'm guessing not but that's why I sold mine quick but did inform the buyer of the problems.
I stand by what I say, I buy shoes that fit I buy wheels that fit..no problems at all.
Lot of deviations from the O/P. Folding bikes. Getting shoes that fit. It was about stretching the rear of a frame 10mm or so to accommodate a motorised hub. A lot have done it without issue and would I'm sure make us aware of any failures. Most welds / brazed joints are stronger than the original materials. If you are unhappy to do it.... Then don't..... Simples
 
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RossG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 12, 2019
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Must come back straight away, a typo on my part it was of course Tern bikes not Trek apologies to Trek on that.

My pal AFAIK busted his frame when stretching it to accommodate a hub that was too wide, he was a motorcycle mechanic at the time so maybe he pushed (or pulled) things a bit too far who knows.
I won't labour the issue as the OP has it nailed anyway, but as I have already mentioned you won't see posts with people admitting they screwed this or that up because they did something wrong that's human nature.
OTOH when things go wrong big time as with frame breaks on folders things get noticed and people crawl out of the woodwork and step up as with Tern's problem. Then of course there was the hinge problem on folders, it goes on and on.....
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Basildon
While this has nothing to do with stressing aluminum. as an owner of several folding bikes, strength of welds has been a concern. I hadn't heard about the folding Treks, but Tern had a recall several years ago. Bad quality in welding? I'm not a mechanical guy, but it would seem some gussets ought to be in there.


View attachment 40088
More likely, it's bad manufacturing, not design. They probably forgot or missed the necessary post-welding heat treatment.
 
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Adgerolla

Finding my (electric) wheels
Dec 16, 2020
15
8
The thing is unless we have a systematic survey of people who have stretched a) steel frames b) alloy frames, sub-categorised as to how much the stretch was, the age, use and condition of the bike. Then this is enhanced with similarly segmented data about failures attributed to the stretch ( and how long after the stretch and the nature of the failure,) we are merely gathering highly valued and kindly given opinions. This helped me to assess risk take a chance on an old bike I was not using. So far it has been the most exhilarating experience as it is light, well balanced and powerful . I will monitor the condition of the bike, particularly in the area of the stretch and I absolutely promise to report back at the first sign of a problem. I am in a vulnerable health category and bleed rather too easily so I am extremely wary of having an accident due to a structural failure!40095
 
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RossG

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Feb 12, 2019
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More likely, it's bad manufacturing, not design. They probably forgot or missed the necessary post-welding heat treatment.
Basically the story goes like this vfr. Tern bikes was formed by the wife & son of David Hon of Dahon folders, there was a family falling out I gather so I won't go into that private matter.
So Josh Hon & Mum set up Tern with the expertise they already had but of course the problem was they didn't have Dad's frame manufacturing capabilities so had to scratch around to find various companies to piece them together and in short time. The result was corners were cut and frames were produced anywhere and everywhere they could get them done, China, Vietnam everywhere. It was rumoured that in some cases bike frames were even being fabricated in basic steel factories by inexperienced welders with a torch & goggles, a story never actually proven. At one time I was heavily involved with the process of finding out what was going on which brought me into contact with people like Mark Bickerton, Downtube Bikes (Yan) and others, I managed to discover what factories produced what bikes and had all the relevant serial numbers. As an owner of a Bickerton Junction myself which is manufactured by Tern I had a vested interest, luckily my machine was built at a puka place so was not part of any recalls.
The thing is riders of these bikes weren't just having cracked frames they were ending up in hospital badly injured, it was a really dreadful affair that ran on for years and even now bikes are still turning up with frames snapped in two.
 

vfr400

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Jun 12, 2011
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While this has nothing to do with stressing aluminum. as an owner of several folding bikes, strength of welds has been a concern. I hadn't heard about the folding Treks, but Tern had a recall several years ago. Bad quality in welding? I'm not a mechanical guy, but it would seem some gussets ought to be in there.


View attachment 40088
Whatever happened to tern non-electric bikes because someone cheated in the manufacturing process has nothing to do with putting motors in bikes. it doesn't add anything to your argument. Already, you've put off the guy in the above post. I hope that makes you happy that you've stopped him from enjoying his ebike experience.
 
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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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The thing is unless we have a systematic survey of people who have stretched a) steel frames b) alloy frames, sub-categorised as to how much the stretch was, the age, use and condition of the bike. Then this is enhanced with similarly segmented data about failures attributed to the stretch ( and how long after the stretch and the nature of the failure,) we are merely gathering highly valued and kindly given opinions. This helped me to assess risk take a chance on an old bike I was not using. So far it has been the most exhilarating experience as it is light, well balanced and powerful . I will monitor the condition of the bike, particularly in the area of the stretch and I absolutely promise to report back at the first sign of a problem. I am in a vulnerable health category and bleed rather too easily so I am extremely wary of having an accident due to a structural failure!View attachment 40095
It's absolutely nothing to worry about. I'm on Apixaban, so if I bleed, there's no way to stop it, but it doesn't stop me from riding my well over-stretched, reset and stretched again framed ebike. Any residual stress is taken on the two braces in your frame. if the welds broke, you wouldn't even know.
 
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MontyPAS

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2020
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Guys, I have valued everything people have said but please, please lets just avoid a pissing contest and share our passion for our ebiking
Could be attributed to "lockdown fever" :D
 
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MontyPAS

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2020
390
148
No need to worry about stretching frames anymore, post Brexit & Covid.
YosePower are no longer directly shipping to the UK.

:p:p:p:p:p;)


Yose.jpg
 

D C

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 25, 2013
1,142
577
No need to worry about stretching frames anymore, post Brexit & Covid.
YosePower are no longer directly shipping to the UK.

:p:p:p:p:p;)


View attachment 40107
I notice there's an item in your cart, were you actually going to buy something off them?:)
Joking apart, it's sad news for the many folk on here who've bought from them, may be difficulties with returns or spares?
 

MontyPAS

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2020
390
148
I notice there's an item in your cart, were you actually going to buy something off them?:)
Joking apart, it's sad news for the many folk on here who've bought from them, may be difficulties with returns or spares?
They are still honouring warranties to UK purchasers. I put something in the basket to see if they are still shipping to the UK. Unfortunately there is no option for UK delivery anymore. TBH I have had no problems with the kit I bought to use as a winter hack. It has worked faultlessly. Fitting was easy as I have no issues with stretching the dropouts. At the price I paid, if it does two winter seasons it has earnt its purchase cost
 
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MontyPAS

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2020
390
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I think it is a temporary rather than permanent suspension of imports .
Don't think it is. Suspension to the UK was announced prior to any Covid announcements. More to do with taxation and shipping to non EU UK
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
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Basildon
Don't think it is. Suspension to the UK was announced prior to any Covid announcements. More to do with taxation and shipping to non EU UK
They'll probably setup a UK warehouse if there's enough demand. There are warehouses that do everything for you for a small cost. That's how Andrew used to sell his Oxygen bikes and Oxyderive kits when he first started.
 

DeanosBeano

Pedelecer
Aug 22, 2019
36
7
i stretched my alloy frame from 155 to 170 mm i used a piece of wood at 190mm left it for the weekend and it accepted the 170mm wheel hub that was 4 months ago and i have done about 12 visits to Gisburn Forest since so all good . i always keep the piece of wood ( now 175mm ) in my paniers in case i have to take the wheel off on my travels
 
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Gringo

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 18, 2013
1,346
842
Northampton
I’ve picked up a little lay knowledge over the years, I’ve found the ally used in bike frames is quite hard and not very ductile while the filler rod used for welding it seams to be softer and more ductile, probably because it needs to melt at a lower temperature than the ally it’s joining.
any stress left in a frame tube is likely to be transferred from the ridged tube into the more ductile weld making it a potential week point.

I’d say that if the frame is bent so it stays at the required size after bending, it is no longer under stress.
Alternatively, if a frame is only pulled apart long enough to get the wheel in ( without the wheel it returns to the original size ) while the wheel is in place the frame will still be under some stress.

On a recently project I cut my chain stays in order to make them about 4inches longer, In order to do this I needed to bend the seat stays a fare bit.
Working with bolts, blocks of wood, a crowbar and lots of huffing and puffing the frame tubes didn’t want to bend and I felt my efforts were being transferred to the weld. I stopped before I did any damage.
knowing a little of the properties of ally, I got my blowtorch out and heated the frame where I wanted it to bend, with very little effort I bent it to the desired position and once cool all the original rigidity returned.
(I also had to bend the chain stays a few degrees as well)
I machined two pieces of ally to fit the gap I’d created and took it to a local welding company, job done (well not quite as I needed it powder coated)
Ive probably only done 200 miles on it so far but I’ve every confidence it will hold together, I’m even considering an E conversion ;)
D89DC9CA-FD3D-4CBC-94AB-312A7BE87EBE.jpegEB6474FA-0625-44E0-91B0-655C749FD5EB.jpegED1E4508-E5C8-47D3-BE06-D89DF3F64F27.jpeg
 
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