NuVinci

[Mike45]

Would I be right in concluding that the use of a NuVinci hub will allow a higher ratio of human input power to machine input power than, say, a Nexus hub or derailleur gears? and why is the stated torque for a Bosch motor less for a NuVinci hub than derailleur gears? Finally, does anyone know what the stated torque is for the newer (36v) Panasonic motors?

Can anybody tell me why I can buy a 125cc motorbike or a halfway decent second hand car for the price of a mid range pedelec?

 

[falmouthtony]

Can anybody tell me why I can buy a 125cc motorbike or a halfway decent second hand car for the price of a mid range pedelec?

Can anybody tell me why I can buy a 125cc motorbike or a halfway decent second hand car for the price of a mid range pedelec?

Guessing it's the law of supply and demand

 

[Kudoscycles]

Mike....I used the Nuvinci hub on my Kudos Eiger bike mainly because of power handling capacity and ability to execute smooth gear changes especially in highly loaded uphill downshifts.
Without cutting the power on such gear changes there is a risk of exceeding the capacity of a Nexus hub or damaging derailleur....there has been much chat on this forum of cutting the power when completing such gear changes.
My Kudos Rapide or Sonata are pretty much state of the art,priced at about £1200 to £1300,my popular mtb e-bike Kudos Tornado at £1095.00....you couldn't buy a new 125cc motorbike or recent car at that money. But,there is a lot of brand awareness in the pedelec world,a German built e-bike with an established name will command £500 to £1000 more...they charge that because they can,as long as people will pay £2500 for a pedelec they will continue to charge it....if the Chinese managed to break into the vital German market you would see prices fall,but I suspect the Germans would shout foul and 50 % anti-dumping duty would be applied to maintain the German bike industry.
Interestingly Giant are on the verge of breaking the 48% anti dumping duty on normal bikes,that will hit the likes of Bianchi hard,but prices will plummet.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Would I be right in concluding that the use of a NuVinci hub will allow a higher ratio of human input power to machine input power than, say, a Nexus hub or derailleur gears? and why is the stated torque for a Bosch motor less for a NuVinci hub than derailleur gears? Finally, does anyone know what the stated torque is for the newer (36v) Panasonic motors?

Can anybody tell me why I can buy a 125cc motorbike or a halfway decent second hand car for the price of a mid range pedelec?

The NuVinci is less efficient than derailleurs despite their claims and probably only matches hub gear efficiency. However, it has a higher torque ratio than the other internal gear hubs, so you could certainly input more in total, meaning more from you is handleable.

Bosch specify a lower power unit for use with hub gears since some of them can be more fragile than derailleurs.

Panasonic don't usually issue torque figures for their crank units. Since the basis for such figures on other makes of unit have been variable and power phase downs and torque input application ratios are at different points, such comparisons can be meaningless. As ever with e-bikes, only trying oneself by riding them is a reliable guide for suitability.

As for vehicle pricing, it's down to market size. The e-bike market is very small and each importer often handles very few machines each year. Therefore the margin per bike they have to add to cover basic costs and survive year upon year can be large. I know of importers who have started by doubling the UK arrival price and then add VAT, and they don't drive Rolls Royces.

If ever e-bikes sold over 2 million a year in the UK like both bicycles and cars do, the prices could plummet.
.

 

[trex]

...
If ever e-bikes sold over 2 million a year in the UK like both bicycles and cars do, the prices could plummet.
.

The market size in France is bit bigger than here butnot much (France: about 35,000 a year), yet you can buy an e-bike for 300 Euros to 400 Euros in a French super market, why not here?

 

[flecc]

The market size in France is bit bigger than here butnot much (France: about 35,000 a year), yet you can buy an e-bike for 300 Euros to 400 Euros in a French super market, why not here?

We have had that here as well, Tesco and SportsHQ have sold e-bikes from £300 upwards at times, though not currently.

I think the fact that almost the entire mainland European market can be treated as one, both geographically and in currency terms is also an influence in helping to have low prices.
.

 

[Mike45]

Mike....I used the Nuvinci hub on my Kudos Eiger bike mainly because of power handling capacity and ability to execute smooth gear changes especially in highly loaded uphill downshifts.
Without cutting the power on such gear changes there is a risk of exceeding the capacity of a Nexus hub or damaging derailleur....there has been much chat on this forum of cutting the power when completing such gear changes.
My Kudos Rapide or Sonata are pretty much state of the art,priced at about £1200 to £1300,my popular mtb e-bike Kudos Tornado at £1095.00....you couldn't buy a new 125cc motorbike or recent car at that money. But,there is a lot of brand awareness in the pedelec world,a German built e-bike with an established name will command £500 to £1000 more...they charge that because they can,as long as people will pay £2500 for a pedelec they will continue to charge it....if the Chinese managed to break into the vital German market you would see prices fall,but I suspect the Germans would shout foul and 50 % anti-dumping duty would be applied to maintain the German bike industry.
Interestingly Giant are on the verge of breaking the 48% anti dumping duty on normal bikes,that will hit the likes of Bianchi hard,but prices will plummet.
KudosDave

I am looking for a step through bike that will get me up the local hills here in Torquay with a moderate amount of pedalling. That rules out the Rapide and the Tornado. The Sonata is fairly small and limited to 100kg, I am 6ft 1 1/2in tall and weigh 110kg, so no go there.

My short list includes the KTM Macina NuVinci Plus, the Kalkhoff Ergo Impulse XXL i360 and the Agattu Premium i360 Harmony. Having studied the posts in this Forum I am concerned re the reliability of the Impulse motor. By comparison, the Bosch motors are less powerfull and have much smaller batteries. The Panasonic motor also appears to be less powerfull and I have not come across a step through bike with a Panasonic motor and a NuVinci hub.

The more that I research the problems I come across!

 

[Mike45]

The NuVinci is less efficient than derailleurs despite their claims and probably only matches hub gear efficiency. However, it has a higher torque ratio than the other internal gear hubs, so you could certainly input more in total, meaning more from you is handleable.

Bosch specify a lower power unit for use with hub gears since some of them can be more fragile than derailleurs.

Panasonic don't usually issue torque figures for their crank units. Since the basis for such figures on other makes of unit have been variable and power phase downs and torque input application ratios are at different points, such comparisons can be meaningless. As ever with e-bikes, only trying oneself by riding them is a reliable guide for suitability.

As for vehicle pricing, it's down to market size. The e-bike market is very small and each importer often handles very few machines each year. Therefore the margin per bike they have to add to cover basic costs and survive year upon year can be large. I know of importers who have started by doubling the UK arrival price and then add VAT, and they don't drive Rolls Royces.

If ever e-bikes sold over 2 million a year in the UK like both bicycles and cars do, the prices could plummet.
.

 

[Mike45]

The reason that I made the original post is that I read that the Bosch controller restricted the power supplied by the motor to be less than, or at the most equal to, the human input. I want to be able to continue going even if I start to flag going uphill. I'm not too worried about caning the battery, the uphill section that I'm concerned is comparatively short and a 15Ah battery will provide plenty of power.

 

[trex]

I am looking for a step through bike that will get me up the local hills here in Torquay with a moderate amount of pedalling. That rules out the Rapide and the Tornado. The Sonata is fairly small and limited to 100kg, I am 6ft 1 1/2in tall and weigh 110kg, so no go there.

I don't know why you ruled out the Sonata. This bike has a decent motor and pedelec rotational sensor, you don't have to pedal as hard as you would with the Bosch or Yamaha CD motors to climb hills.
KD will let you try his bikes and return if you don't want to keep for £25. I'd pay £25 to try out the Sonata.

 

[Mike45]

I don't know why you ruled out the Sonata. This bike has a decent motor and pedelec rotational sensor, you don't have to pedal as hard as you would with the Bosch or Yamaha CD motors to climb hills.
KD will let you try his bikes and return if you don't want to keep for £25. I'd pay £25 to try out the Sonata.

Frame size, wheel size and weight limit.

 

[Artstu]

My Kudos Rapide or Sonata are pretty much state of the art,priced at about £1200 to £1300,my popular mtb e-bike Kudos Tornado at £1095.00....you couldn't buy a new 125cc motorbike

Oh yes you can http://www.chinesemotorcycledealers.co.uk/125cc_motorcycles.php

 

[Artstu]

The reason that I made the original post is that I read that the Bosch controller restricted the power supplied by the motor to be less than, or at the most equal to, the human input.

Not true, it's 2.25 times rider power, so still a significant boost.

top specs
http://www.ebikeportal.com/bosch-ebike-system-2015

 

[flecc]

The reason that I made the original post is that I read that the Bosch controller restricted the power supplied by the motor to be less than, or at the most equal to, the human input.

I'm sure that's not true Mike, it would mean the Bosch couldn't even reach the legal limit for many people, since just 200 watts is a common human cycling capability sustained limit in older riders. The Bosch unit is reputed to have over 500 watts maximum output.

It's more powerful than the current 26 volt Panasonic unit which can give 2 times the human input in High Power mode.

P.S. Crossed with Arstu's post above.
.

 

[Mike45]

I'm sure that's not true Mike, it would mean the Bosch couldn't even reach the legal limit for many people, since just 200 watts is a common human cycling capability sustained limit in older riders. The Bosch unit is reputed to have over 500 watts maximum output.

It's more powerful than the current 26 volt Panasonic unit which can give 2 times the human input in High Power mode.

P.S. Crossed with Arstu's post above.
.

 

[Mike45]

The article that I read said, I think, that the restriction was due to government regulation. Probably got it wrong but it stuck in my mind.

 

[Mike45]

I'm sure that's not true Mike, it would mean the Bosch couldn't even reach the legal limit for many people, since just 200 watts is a common human cycling capability sustained limit in older riders. The Bosch unit is reputed to have over 500 watts maximum output.

It's more powerful than the current 26 volt Panasonic unit which can give 2 times the human input in High Power mode.

P.S. Crossed with Arstu's post above.
.

 

[Mike45]

Any idea how the Impulse 2 motor compares. The Impulse appears to provide the greatest torque.

 

[flecc]

Any idea how the Impulse 2 motor compares. The Impulse appears to provide the greatest torque.

I've not tried it Mike but others who have reported it as one of the most powerful of the German made crank units, possibly the most powerful.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am looking for a step through bike that will get me up the local hills here in Torquay with a moderate amount of pedalling. That rules out the Rapide and the Tornado. The Sonata is fairly small and limited to 100kg, I am 6ft 1 1/2in tall and weigh 110kg, so no go there.

My short list includes the KTM Macina NuVinci Plus, the Kalkhoff Ergo Impulse XXL i360 and the Agattu Premium i360 Harmony. Having studied the posts in this Forum I am concerned re the reliability of the Impulse motor. By comparison, the Bosch motors are less powerfull and have much smaller batteries. The Panasonic motor also appears to be less powerfull and I have not come across a step through bike with a Panasonic motor and a NuVinci hub.

The more that I research the problems I come across!

My Sonata will eat for breakfast all the bikes you listed...if you want hill climbing ability and stay legal then BPM hub drive is best. I am 6ft 1 " and 17 stone. The frame size of the Sonata is identical to the KTM Macina bold.
The most powerful of the KTM models are the Panasonic hub drives but KTM seemed to have lost interest in that model.
Having said the foregoing I am aware of brand awareness,I haven't bought any car aside from BMW or Audi....even though my senior manager swears by his Hyundai.
The Nuvinci hub seems to sap some power,you swop power for ease of change and range,
Buying e-bikes is a compromise.
KudosDave