Non Presteigne 2010 chatter

[Wisper Bikes]

LifePO4

Hi Dan,

The LiFePO4 battery went to 700 cycles and then dropped of slowly, it was the Panasonic battery that virtually collapses after 500 cycles. I am confident of this information as it was obtained from Yik Lik AKA Porta Power who use them in e bike battery manufacture. I was very excited because of the fantastic capacity of the latest Panasonic cell that would take our larger battery from 504Wh to 617! increasing range from 56 miles to a conservative 70 and giving us that extra torque when needed.

The question I need to answer is: Is it worth changing batteries for the extra range/torque considering the battery life as much as halves?

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

Your information makes perfect sense to me David. The reputation for long life of LiFePO4 is very dependent on discharge rates, and the e-bike requirement is for compact size, low weight and high discharge rate. That indicates that LiFePO4 crammed into your usual battery case may well have a shorter life than the high capacity Li-polymer with the latest nickel-cobalt-manganese dioxide compound cathodes of the type that you have.

I think LiFePO4 will get there with further cathode development, but it's questionable whether they are yet ready for mass production with reliable long life. I'd say let the e-car manufacturers take the risk and do the donkey work of proving first. They are still at the failure stages.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

will this mean that longer lasting/more powerful batteries will be made to fit into the standard Wisper box so existing 905 owners will get the benefit of any advance in battery technology?

Absolutely Alex, we have no intention to change the existing Wisper range in any way that existing models cannot be upgraded. Our first upgrade available in three months is the hydraulic brake upgrade on disk brakes.

All the best

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

LiFePO4

Your information makes perfect sense to me David. The reputation for long life of LiFePO4 is very dependent on discharge rates, and the e-bike requirement is for compact size, low weight and high discharge rate. That indicates that LiFePO4 crammed into your usual battery case may well have a shorter life than the high capacity Li-polymer with the latest nickel-cobalt-manganese dioxide compound cathodes of the type that you have.

I think LiFePO4 will get there with further cathode development, but it's questionable whether they are yet ready for mass production with reliable long life. I'd say let the e-car manufacturers take the risk and do the donkey work of proving first. They are still at the failure stages.
.

Thanks Flecc and I agree let the car manufacturers be the guinea pigs, they can afford it!

All the best

David

 

[Mussels]

The question I need to answer is: Is it worth changing batteries for the extra range/torque considering the battery life as much as halves?

All the best

David

Battery life was pivotal to me buying an ebike and longevity means much more to me than saving a bit of weight.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

My feelings exactly Andrew, the good news is this morning I have had confirmation that AE have managed to get a further 2A into our battery case for future orders by using some new tech, just awaiting the cost implications.

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

My feelings exactly Andrew, the good news is this morning I have had confirmation that AE have managed to get a further 2A into our battery case for future orders by using some new tech, just awaiting the cost implications.

All the best

David

Wow! 16 Ah, that'll shake things up a bit!

Makes life even more difficult for the advocates of LiFePO4, given the greater bulk of that type, this new Li-polymer giving 60% more capacity in your case.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

16A Battery

Yes Flecc it certainly makes my decision more straight forward. We will continue to offer the smaller 9, now 10A, for those who don't want to pay around £600 for a 590Wh battery!

It also helped me to decide not to go with the Panasonic battery I don't think the extra 1.5A and slightly lower price is enough to outweigh the advantage using such a long lived solution.

All the best

David

 

[eddieo]

I dont think any manufacturer other then Wisper discusses research and development so openly. Giving us such a useful insight as to what is going on behind the scenes in E bike tech. I appreciate that this is a two way thing and we are being used as a sounding board as well, but I just love David's contributions. The only down side of all the good news is that the prices increase proportionally!

the 906xc, now a 1006, and a kit, and now a more powerful battery.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

££££

Thanks for your kind words Eddie!

We will always strive to give the customer (pedelecs contributors) what they want and that normally involves higher spec!

Please remember though we will always keep the lower priced option available so no one needs to buy Carbon Matrix, Air suspension, Hydraulic brakes or 600Wh batteries to own a Wisper.

FYI... Whilst in Shanghai as well as confirming the 2011 range which includes the 1006, we finalised the spec on another bike that we have been working on over the last 12 months. A bike that will retail at about the £850 mark. It will be covered by the same back up and support as a top of the range Wisper but will be a very simple bike by comparison. For instance, rather than the Wisper throttle/cadence assist we will be using a simple but effective torque sensor system. Although TS in my opinion are not as effective as the standard Wisper mode they are much cheaper to produce and negate the need for electronic cut outs on the brakes. More to follow soon.

All the best

David

 

[flecc]

we finalised the spec on another bike that we have been working on over the last 12 months. A bike that will retail at about the £850 mark. It will be covered by the same back up and support as a top of the range Wisper

As Eddie remarked, definitely a bid for world domination!

A future e-bike showroom could exist on the one brand alone. Front motor, rear motor, step-through and crossbar, sport, city, folder models, choice of battery sizes, prices from £850 to well over £2000.

Would make an impressive showroom.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Over the top?

I know Flecc, it seems insane as I am constantly being reminded by Douglas!

I just love electric bikes and want to get as many people on them as possible.

They are not simply a great means of transport but they help massively with fitness. I have my own story on the health issue, a couple of months ago I promised myself to get out on my bike every day of possible, at that time I was 22stone 7lbs the heaviest in my life!

I still have a long way to go but i tipped the scales at 20 stone 3lbs this morning!

All the best

David

 

[Alex728]

are current 905's cadence sensitive? I though they just sensed when you were pedalling...

the £850 bike will easily be popular with "younger" folk, as many would find £1300 a bit steep but especially as the cost of motoring spirals £850 might not seem too much...

A powacycle Salisbury has gone up to nearly £800 full price and they are slipping on reliability and customer service...

 

[Andy_82]

16Ah wow

Wow 16ah it's an impressive capacity and yes your battery box is very big indeed David. I was however wondering to what extent do we need the 16Ah. I have on my bike a 10Ah battery and frankly I manage to go from Twickenham to the City of London and come back on one charge and still have about 20% left. That is 30 miles in total.

On the other hand we got be thinking about the total weight of the bikes. Is the increase in battery going to add the weight? probably around extra 0.4kg so you will have nearly 4.5kg battery pack???

I would rather dream to have an electric bike that will easily do around 35-40 miles of daily commute and will weight below 20kg in total as taking the heavy beast up the stairs is really pain in the a.. My wife can not even handle my bike because is simply too heavy and frankly I think bikes should be for us people not for guys from the gym. These days most of the E-bikes weight in the region of 25kg.

 

[eTim]

Any of the Cytronex bikes with 2 batteries (to give 40-50 mile range) will come under 20Kg. Removing the batteries will remove around 5Kg of weight and the bike reverts to its normal bike weight plus 3Kg (for motor, controller etc) therefore easy to carry and manoeuver.

So lightweight electric bikes of good range do exist

 

[Andy_82]

Any of the Cytronex bikes with 2 batteries (to give 40-50 mile range) will come under 20Kg. Removing the batteries will remove around 5Kg of weight and the bike reverts to its normal bike weight plus 3Kg (for motor, controller etc) therefore easy to carry and manoeuver.

So lightweight electric bikes of good range do exist

yes and that is very impressive

 

[eddieo]

while cytronex use beautiful road bikes, I think the range is the only question mark. The "Wired" 4 bike test/review (which the capo won incidentaly) Said this regards the cytronex.

"But judging battery capacity caused us to worry – there’s no power indicator, and we felt a loss of power at the end of our route"

This was on a 14 mile London route. the wisper 906 (2nd) was only a little slower in acceleration (5.42 and wisper 5.64 0-15mph) Capo better top speed (26.1 and wisper 21.9) But the wisper in full power mode still had half its battery capacity left.....

http://www.cytronex.com/reviews/WiredCapoReveiw.pdf

 

[eTim]

while cytronex use beautiful road bikes, I think the range is the only question mark. The "Wired" 4 bike test/review (which the capo won incidentaly) Said this regards the cytronex.

"But judging battery capacity caused us to worry – there’s no power indicator, and we felt a loss of power at the end of our route"

This was on a 14 mile London route. the wisper 906 (2nd) was only a little slower in acceleration (5.42 and wisper 5.64 0-15mph) Capo better top speed (26.1 and wisper 21.9) But the wisper in full power mode still had half its battery capacity left.....

http://www.cytronex.com/reviews/WiredCapoReveiw.pdf

My immediate thoughts on this are that the range of the Cytronex system will depend on the donor bike (as well as the rider). The Capo is a single speed bike and really made for flat routes or city routes. I believe that the intended use of the electric assist for this bike is to leave it switched on all the time, in the city with plenty of stop/starts the power will kick in at 6mph (or thereabouts) to give a fast start. This puts more strain on the battery as it is being used from low speed starts to the 15mph limit and will give a lower range.

Cytronex is an efficiency system whereby the rider may contribute more to the ride than on some other ebikes, the bikes are aimed at cyclists that still want the look and feel of a 'normal' bike with the option of power when needed, hence the fast road bikes and lower battery outputs.

Edit: I agree that a lack of battery indicator could be a problem, but as it's a minimalist system it's OK with me. More experience with the system means I can judge battery level and I carry 2 batteries on longer routes anyway (both attached to the bike).

It's horses for courses, whilst I now own two Cytronex bikes and I'm fairly new to the world of ebikes, I love the Wispers, Kalkhoffs etc and their all-round ability and realise that there are/will be as many genres of ebike as there are non ebikes and not one ebike will suit all riders/abilities/tracks/hills/routes.

A fascinating subject that has got me hooked

Edit: I have had 20-25 miles on my Synapse on a single battery in a very hilly Hampshire, I am average fitness in my early 40's and was pedaling the whole time and I was not tired at the end, just nicely exercised, I could have ridden another 10 miles without assist easily(ish). Based on this 50 miles on two batteries is achievable, on the flat it may even be more, if I could just find some flat !

 

[Wisper Bikes]

10 or 16A

Hi Andy thanks for your question.

I am not sure if you are aware but we offer two batteries a 9 soon to be 10A and a 14 soon to be 16A.

All our bikes are priced with the 14A battery which as you say has more power than most people require, as a matter of interest the 9A Wispers are £200.00 cheaper than the 14A which is what makes Wisper bikes seem to be expensive. The reason we advertise the bike at the 14A price is because 90% of our customers buy the bikes with the large battery.

A 14A battery has three distinct advantages over a 10A smaller battery.

1. Range increased by more than 40%

But more importantly

2. Battery life increased by more than 40%
3. The distance a rider can travel without feeling any drop in power increased by more than 40%

If this is weighed up against the disadvantage of having a larger/heavier battery I personally don't think there is much of a contest. The big question is; is it worth an extra £200?

Regards

David

 

[daniel.weck]

The reason we advertise the bike at the 14A price is because 90% of our customers buy the bikes with the large battery.

Could it be the other way around ? => Wisper advertizes the 14A battery as "standard", which then justifies (rightly-so) a higher-end price tag, which in turn attracts the kind of potential buyers that are more "aware" about false-economy (i.e. people who are financially more "comfortable" to accept a £ premium in order to avoid disappointment further down the line).

The big question is; is it worth an extra £200?

From a business perspective, isn't the bottom line "market placement" ? If Wisper e-bikes were advertized with the lower-capacity batteries as "standard", the substantially lower price tag would put them in the price bracket of lower (perceived) quality or less renowned brands...therefore creating confusion in the market place or at least delivering a skewed message.

Another argument is the fact that any product with a "Unique Selling Point" will inevitably stand-out amongst competitors. A high-capacity high-quality long-life battery as standard is a desirable feature, which when associated with the right kind of purchase incentive (e.g. decent warranty, first-class support) can effectively turn a "desire to own" into a concrete sale

Thoughts ?