non-folder to fit in the boot?

[Dai Gleddau]

Still researching which ebike to get....
I'm looking for an ebike of shortish overall length (about 175cm max), so with front-wheel removed, it will fit in the car. For lots of reasons, I don't want to have to use a bike-rack.
Roughest riding I do is forest trails (not serious mountain biking). I think 26" wheels is about the smallest I'd tolerate.
So far, most bikes I've looked at are a touch too long.
And of course, I don't want to spend too much!
Any ideas appreciated (except for "get a bigger car!")?

 

[chris667]

I think the hilly tracks of wales are a bit of a push with a 250w 36v front wheel.

I'd suggest a rear wheel or a crank drive. The DWG22C has much more torque and gets me up any hill here in the Peaks. Front wheel can be quick release then.

The other thing I like about my hub gear is the triple chainset. Yes, you don't need a triple with a crank drive, but I like to switch it off sometimes and have a normal bike. When I have flattened my battery in the past I've been glad I had a triple.

 

[Az.]

BTW Claud Butler Edge HT is a horrible choice. Still a bit better than Apollo LOL

It is not a MTB

 

[RollingChunder]

Thanks... I was assuming that to remove the front wheel I'll just need to release the V-brakes, and then undo the nuts on the axle (I'm used to doing this with my old MTB today) and then just disconnect the cable to the motor. But I'll have a good look at the fitting instructions to see if I've missed anything.

I'll also have a think about battery size.

Yes this is the case assuming no torque arms. And a quick google suggests you won't need them with 250w but make sure you do the nuts up tight.

Conversion? Great. Best way to get good value for money e-bike.

Front wheel conversion on MTB? Please don't. Trust me, I have one. Rear hub or best mid drive. Rear hub should be enough for your needs, but your appetite will grow. Do it once, do it right.

To me, it didn't sound like he would be doing hardcore DH MTB so going along a muddy or gravelly path with 250w won't make much difference front or rear.

 

[Dai Gleddau]

Yes you are right it is good to go for more capacity than you'll need mainly as this extends the battery's life as it stays in the 100-50% range all the time. If you don't mind spending the extra than it's no problem getting the bigger battery, slightly more weight but not noticeable. But I think a 13-17ah battery will give no discernible difference to you and will be a big cost saving.

If on the rare occasion you want to do a massive 50 mile tour, it will still be possible you just have to turn down the assist! Basically, it's more sensible to determine your average watt hour usage in one outing and oversizing that, rather than your maximum possible journey ever and oversizing still because soon as you start putting work in the pedals the range goes off the charts.


On this note, a front wheel hub motor is harder to remove than a quick release mtb front wheel. I don't know if you need a torque arm for 250w on the front but if you do it will become a hassle taking on and off. Simple with tools of course!

ah... didn't know what torque-arms were until you tipped me off!
Now I'm better educated, but it appears that 250W motors are so puny that they shouldn't cause a problem with

Conversion? Great. Best way to get good value for money e-bike.

Front wheel conversion on MTB? Please don't. Trust me, I have one. Rear hub or best mid drive. Rear hub should be enough for your needs, but your appetite will grow. Do it once, do it right.

Not doubting your advice Az, but wondering what are the specific problems with FWD that you've experienced?

 

[RollingChunder]

Not doubting your advice Az, but wondering what are the specific problems with FWD that you've experienced?

As a quick reply, mainly traction and weight distribution.

 

[Az.]

As a quick reply, mainly traction and weight distribution.

Yes, but also front wheel affects how bike is handling. In a very negative way. By installing front hub you add a lot of weight to front and will ask a lot of your poor fork. Anything more ambitious and you might loose your wheel. You don't want that.

Also if you install front wheel hub, forget about bike in car boot.

What is your budget for donor bike? How tall are you?

 

[Dai Gleddau]

Yes, but also front wheel affects how bike is handling. In a very negative way. By installing front hub you add a lot of weight to front and will ask a lot of your poor fork. Anything more ambitious and you might loose your wheel. You don't want that.

Also if you install front wheel hub, forget about bike in car boot.

What is your budget for donor bike? How tall are you?

5'10" and about 11.5 stone.
Don't really want to spend more than £300 on donor bike.
Will be taking front wheel off the bike anyway to get it in the boot (so it's shorter and lighter to manhandle).
Understand what you say about potentially strange handling (since push-bikes are fundamentally designed to be RWD) but there are lots of FWD pedelecs out there and people seem to get on OK with them? Is this an "on-limit" performance issue that would not be a problem for gently pootling along the lanes or is it really that bad?
I could change the plan to RWD... just makes the installation a bit more complicated and the bike heavier to get in and out of the car (with hub-motor still attached).

 

[Az.]

Don't really want to spend more than £300 on donor bike.

https://www.evanscycles.com/brand/gt/aggressor-sport-mountain-bike-917809#colcode=91780903

You missed quite a lot of good deals on bikes recently, but this GT is way better than your initial choice.
I ride front wheel hub MTB on mild off-road tracs, but it is pushing the limits. Just need right tool for the job. Rear hubs or mid drives are better for off-road.

Removing front hub each time for transport, detaching cables etc and then mounting it back on again is a bad idea.

 

[chris667]

Not much more complicated after the first install. Removing the battery makes a huge difference when loading and unloading, it's the haeaviest part of the system.

The reason there are lots of fwd pedelecs are they're cheaper. I did have one as my first pedelec, it was fine but you can lose traction on leaves. The rear hub is better.

Regarding donor bikes, look for something secondhand. Modern MTBs have bigger wheels and take up more room.

A 26 wheel MTB with a rigid fork is ideal, IMO. Nothing too expensive or superlight.

I wouldn't have a problem with an Apollo MTB with a rigid fork. A high tensile steel bike is fine for a motor, the weight saving doesn't really matter when you add extra bits.

 

[Dai Gleddau]

BTW Claud Butler Edge HT is a horrible choice. Still a bit better than Apollo LOL

It is not a MTB

Sure it's a budget bike. My thoughts are it's light, small enough and cheap enough. And I won't be doing any serious mountain-biking , just pootling along country-lanes and forest trails... so don't need a proper MTB. But I'm open minded if there's anything better out there that fits for the money?

 

[Az.]

Sure it's a budget bike. My thoughts are it's light, small enough and cheap enough. And I won't be doing any serious mountain-biking , just pootling along country-lanes and forest trails... so don't need a proper MTB. But I'm open minded if there's anything better out there that fits for the money?

https://www.evanscycles.com/brand/gt/aggressor-sport-mountain-bike-917809#colcode=91780903

 

[Dai Gleddau]

5'10" and about 11.5 stone.
Don't really want to spend more than £300 on donor bike.
Will be taking front wheel off the bike anyway to get it in the boot (so it's shorter and lighter to manhandle).
Understand what you say about potentially strange handling (since push-bikes are fundamentally designed to be RWD) but there are lots of FWD pedelecs out there and people seem to get on OK with them? Is this an "on-limit" performance issue that would not be a problem for gently pootling along the lanes or is it really that bad?
I could change the plan to RWD... just makes the installation a bit more complicated and the bike heavier to get in and out of the car (with hub-motor still attached).

...having said that, I'm used to heaving an 18kg steel bike in and out of the car at the moment, so maybe an alloy-bike plus rear-hub-motor might not be any heavier?

 

[Az.]

...having said that, I'm used to heaving an 18kg steel bike in and out of the car at the moment, so maybe an alloy-bike plus rear-hub-motor might not be any heavier?

It should be lighter or more or less the same weight after you remove battery.

 

[Dai Gleddau]

Thanks again folks. Although I might be happy with FWD for my light usage, without doubt RWD would perform better in certain circumstances... and the RWD kit isn't any more expensive (just a bit more messing about with cassette etc to install). As long as the donor bike is light enough then the extra weight of the rear hub will not stop me getting it in and out of the car. And a quick-release front-wheel with no electrics will be better if I'm removing and refitting it frequently. I understand the criticism of my suggested donor bike but there are not many lightweight 26" options out there, but I will take a look at 2nd-hand... onto eBay next!

 

[saneagle]

front wheel drive, 20AH downtube battery.
So, with front-wheel and battery removed, weight for manhandling in and out of car is minimised.

Doesn't make sense. A front motor is pretty horrible, and is not as safe as a rear one. If that wasn't bad enough, it's going to be a lot of work taking the wheel off for transport. Do yourself a favour and fit a rear motor.

 

[Dai Gleddau]

Doesn't make sense. A front motor is pretty horrible, and is not as safe as a rear one. If that wasn't bad enough, it's going to be a lot of work taking the wheel off for transport. Do yourself a favour and fit a rear motor.

I'm starting to think that way too...thanks

 

[saneagle]

Thanks... I was assuming that to remove the front wheel I'll just need to release the V-brakes, and then undo the nuts on the axle (I'm used to doing this with my old MTB today) and then just disconnect the cable to the motor. But I'll have a good look at the fitting instructions to see if I've missed anything.

I'll also have a think about battery size.

Whatever you do, get a a bike with disc brakes as a donor, not rim brakes. if you know anything about physics, you should kno that you need 216% more braking when you fit an electric kit and your average speed goes up from 10 mph to 14 mph. Rim brakes are OK on a non-electric bike, but a converted one needs at least two sets on each wheel to brake the same.

 

[Nealh]

I love my small front bafang g370 in my road rat though it is mainly a road use bike with light trail use. I wouldn't want the pfaff though of having to remove it though to put in a car.
Steel forks no need for torque arms at 250w, would only use ali forks if they had serious meat around the d/o's , once did a rokshok fork conversion on a mtb with torque arms. Didn't stop both of the d/o's from cracking.

 

[Woosh]

I think it's the weight that breaks the jaws of the fork, not the torque.

 

[saneagle]

I think it's the weight that breaks the jaws of the fork, not the torque.

For alloy forks, it's metal fatigue. More expensive forks are made of magnesium alloy, which has an even lower fatigue resistance than aluminium. The drop-outs are designed to take an oscillating force in the up and down direction, not the substancial torsion force.

The main way I've seen the drop-outs break is when the fork has lawyers lips and the installer didn't file the drop-outs deeper t re-centralise the axle, so that the nut or washer tightened on the lip and popped half of the drop-out off. Others I've seen happened randomly after some time, which was probably metal fatigue, but could be because the nut came loose or wasn't tightened enough. The drop-out itself is not strong enough to resist the motor's torque. Any will break if the nut isn't tightened.

If everything is done right, it can work, but most people don't know about torque arms, centralising the axle, nor do they know what their forks are made off. Then, there's always the possibility that the nut wasn't tightened or came loose. Whatever it is, failure is catastrophic and is likely to lead to injury when you go straight over the handlebars to land on your head. There are so many ifs and buts with such serious consequences that it's best to say just avoid it unless there's no choice.