If no Brexit deal, which looks likely, will this mean the end of bosch bikes and batteries in uk, or very limited stock, as prices may be out of reach for most of us , or just not willing to pay silly prices.
No Deal
- Thread starter nightrider
- Start date
For the most part Bosch ebikes are silly prices any way.
If we end up on WTO tariffs there should be very little effect on European made e-bikes:
WTO tariff codes and rates for bikes/frames: WTO tariffs tend to be about 4%. The value of the pound is a much bigger factor.
On the other hand Chinese made e-bikes that we import could be cheaper since we'd have no need to impose the EU's harsh anti-dumping tariff.
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Thanks for bringing that up.
With a normal e-bike manufacturer, a private person could under these circumstances, buy certain spares in advance - just in case, so to say.
But as I understand from other posts, Bosch does not apparently allow that, please correct me if I am wrong......
It is certainly possibly that prices may rise in the UK, except that the profit margin appears to be fairly large on Bosch products, so they might wind back their prices, to stabilize them at today's levels.
This is already done around the EU, so that notwithstanding different taxes on cars in different countries, they are all set up so that the price tag on the same car, costs the same sort of money in all EU countries.
Though that is not quite true, as it has been possible for many years, for a person to buy brand new car in a country where car taxes are high (untaxed price kept artificially low!), export them brand new & unregistered to a country where such taxes are far lower, and pocket the difference!
This is only possible for cars that have NEVER, EVER been registered......
Grey import cars are the result of that little difference!
Specifications may vary as well, a lot of research is needed before purchase, or you may have saved money, but your country does not like the spec, and will not register it. An engine type that is not sold where you live, is a typical problem.
But whether that will ultimately affect EU e-bike's and their spare part prices, in the UK, I could not say.....But its worth thinking about for anyone wishing to buy something new of course, "OVER THERE". Or in my case "OVER HERE!"
regards
Andy
I suppose the only area I'm worried about for e-bikes is buying cells. The cheapest place I've found is NKON.nl, a Dutch site. Hopefully another provider will step in, as they are not from the EU originally.
I have been lucky, up to now my batteries have simply "lasted", 4 batteries on 2 bikes. All with Panasonic cells. So I have never had to re-cell one, though I understand exactly how its done.
My advice is to go for quality, not price, even if it means a lower level of amps.
You only have to see one bike battery fire, to know why I say that!
There are enough YouTube videos of such fires, if you would like to see what can happen, and in a house or shed, that would be a HUGE disaster.
regards
Andy
Sounds like another VERY good reason not to buy a Bosch powered bike
Update: Anti-dumping measures on Chinese and US bikes and e-Bikes
The Department of International Trade has this morning updated the Bicycle Association on anti-dumping measures effective as of January 1st.
cyclingindustry.news
Everyone in the trade knows that the given reasons that Chinese imports hurt European manufacturers unfairly because Chinese companies received unfair subsidies have a ring of truth but do not justify the scale of the anti dumping tariff: 37.5% to 73.4%.
Chinese imported bikes had to pay 6% before anti-dumping. Since July 2018, 6% + 37.5% = 43.5% to 79.4%.
In reality, Chinese bikes are cheaper because they have usually lower specs aiming at the low tier of the market.
Their small advantage at the middle tier of the market comes from their vast manufacturing base which is an order of magnitude larger than all European brands combined.
the DIT flip-flopping on anti-dumping against Chinese imported bikes will lead to even more distortion and encourage more circumvention. It will lead immediately to higher prices for all as firms importing Chinese bikes assembled from the EU will pay even more taxes than they are paying at the moment.
If you look at some statistics, Taiwan and Vietnam become top sources of Chinese e-bikes because some large enough firms circumvent the anti-dumping tax by moving a small part of the process, assembly, to these two countries without creating any job in the UK or EU.
Others Chinese e-bike sellers buy from Chinese setups in Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania and Turkey. Trust me, these setups are barely legal, with little added value to the process.
Chinese imported bikes had to pay 6% before anti-dumping. Since July 2018, 6% + 37.5% = 43.5% to 79.4%.
In reality, Chinese bikes are cheaper because they have usually lower specs aiming at the low tier of the market.
Their small advantage at the middle tier of the market comes from their vast manufacturing base which is an order of magnitude larger than all European brands combined.
the DIT flip-flopping on anti-dumping against Chinese imported bikes will lead to even more distortion and encourage more circumvention. It will lead immediately to higher prices for all as firms importing Chinese bikes assembled from the EU will pay even more taxes than they are paying at the moment.
If you look at some statistics, Taiwan and Vietnam become top sources of Chinese e-bikes because some large enough firms circumvent the anti-dumping tax by moving a small part of the process, assembly, to these two countries without creating any job in the UK or EU.
Others Chinese e-bike sellers buy from Chinese setups in Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania and Turkey. Trust me, these setups are barely legal, with little added value to the process.
Good news for almost everyone but the poor consumer, as usual.Update: Anti-dumping measures on Chinese and US bikes and e-Bikes
The Department of International Trade has this morning updated the Bicycle Association on anti-dumping measures effective as of January 1st.
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There are UK suppliers of cells so as long as their stocks are good then should be no worries. My last cells HG2 worked out a couple quid cheaper then Nkon. Wholesale 18650 or Fogstar are both in the UK.
This country has always been expensive. Witness looking at machine tool in America, you will pay the same numerical amount of pounds (or more) as dollars.
Some 20 years ago i was involved in a charity reroofing project. There was a team og guys coming from Holland to help. It was cheaper for them to hire a twin axle trailer and bring all the materials with them on the ferry, than it was to but the timber here. So much for a level playing field !
Some 20 years ago i was involved in a charity reroofing project. There was a team og guys coming from Holland to help. It was cheaper for them to hire a twin axle trailer and bring all the materials with them on the ferry, than it was to but the timber here. So much for a level playing field !
And companies take advantage of that too in other than prices. Some six years ago I looked at Sony's warranty policies on electricals in the USA and here in the UK. Where their warranties on items were commonly either one or two years here, very often the identical items enjoyed five years in the USA.
Down to the USA's tougher consumer protection laws of course, but worth money none-the-less.
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There was always good reasons to avoid them, now maybe a few more!!Sounds like another VERY good reason not to buy a Bosch powered bike
Some other makes may also be affected possibly, for similar reasons.
Hard to say at this time, and even though I live in Germany, I still want that the UK gets its sovereignty back again..
Also, that fish stocks are not unnecessarily plundered "Willy-Nilly" by such countries as France and Spain, to name but two!
As the French have said many times, "Perfidious Albion!" Long may she (UK) reign!
regards
Andy
BTW, all anti dumping levies (about 100 against 25 different countries) that we inherit from the EU's single market are against WTO rules.
So I expect we'll lift them soon.
The DIT may want to keep some or change the level of levies.
QUOTE:
Article VI of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (“GATT”) and the AD Agreement, a WTO Member can apply an AD measure only if the following conditions are met: first, an investigation must be initiated and conducted in accordance with theAD Agreement; second, as a result of that investigation, a determination must be made (a) that dumping is occurring; (b) that the domestic industry is suffering material injury or threat thereof, or that the establishment of a domestic injury is materially retarded; and (c) that there is a causal link between the dumping and the injury suffered by the domestic industry.
Further, Article 11.1 of the AD Agreement permits a WTO Member to maintain an AD duty “only as long as and to the extent necessary to counteract dumping which is causing injury”. If the UK would like to carry over the existing EU AD measures, this “general necessity requirement” must be fulfilled.
end quote
One particular problem that concerns me regarding shipping my bikes to NI.
I don't have to supply a certificate of origin with the bikes at present but in case of no deal, I may have to under the NI protocol.
Now what about the rules of origin? As the parts are imported directly from China, 90% of the value of the bike is imported from China...
So I expect we'll lift them soon.
The DIT may want to keep some or change the level of levies.
QUOTE:
Article VI of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (“GATT”) and the AD Agreement, a WTO Member can apply an AD measure only if the following conditions are met: first, an investigation must be initiated and conducted in accordance with theAD Agreement; second, as a result of that investigation, a determination must be made (a) that dumping is occurring; (b) that the domestic industry is suffering material injury or threat thereof, or that the establishment of a domestic injury is materially retarded; and (c) that there is a causal link between the dumping and the injury suffered by the domestic industry.
Further, Article 11.1 of the AD Agreement permits a WTO Member to maintain an AD duty “only as long as and to the extent necessary to counteract dumping which is causing injury”. If the UK would like to carry over the existing EU AD measures, this “general necessity requirement” must be fulfilled.
end quote
One particular problem that concerns me regarding shipping my bikes to NI.
I don't have to supply a certificate of origin with the bikes at present but in case of no deal, I may have to under the NI protocol.
Now what about the rules of origin? As the parts are imported directly from China, 90% of the value of the bike is imported from China...
I think Bosch motors are made in China anyway, it may be they have an assembly plant in Europe for European sales but when sold elsewhere in the world they are exported directly from China. It may have been a US forum or video that showed they are made in China. So it might end up with Bosch motors fully assembled in China being sold in the UK market. It's debatable which would assemble the motors better.
Brose motors are one of the least reliable, they have a habit of destroying themselves and being unrepairable hence why Specialized has had to up the warranty on their ebike motors because the high failure rate was putting customers off their ebikes, I think they now offer a 4 year warranty. Anyway those are made in Germany.
In fairness though mid-drive motors can be very complex often featuring belts and plastic cogs in order to reduce sound output. They also feature smaller motors so the whole assembly can fit in the bottom bracket area. It's much easier to make a reliable hub motor because of their design simplicity and motor size especially direct drive hub motors. No moving parts in direct drive hub motors at all except for the sealed bearings on the axle just like any wheel.
It's likely a Bosch motor wholly assembled in the far east would be cheaper than a motor that has its parts shipped to Europe for final assembly so it could be within 6 months Bosch motors end up cheaper.
However lets face it without EU tariffs ebikes are likely to get much cheaper and Bosch will be even less competitive. Bafang motors are more reliable and have easy access to spares and if anything their technology and engineering is better than Bosch. In fact Bafang claim to manufacture motors for many brands so maybe Bosch production or some key parts are made by Bafang for Bosch anyway.
I worked as a compliance officer at an importer previously and saw quite a few certification test reports where multiple brands including Bosch were importing the same products as us, yes they had a different cosmetic re-skin and some minor components may be different but the critical component list was the same and many brands products were on that one certification test report we were all buying from the same Chinese factory. Yet the Bosch marketing spiel was dotted with references about German engineering etc. The product was clearly fully designed, engineered, tested and manufactured in China but you would never see that on any marketing waffle from any brand.
I've got a Bosch drill that is about 40 years old and still going strong, it was made in their Swedish factory of the time. Yet I've seen reports of Bosch drills failing with their first use in recent years. You shouldn't confuse new Bosch with old Bosch which I think many people do.
Brose motors are one of the least reliable, they have a habit of destroying themselves and being unrepairable hence why Specialized has had to up the warranty on their ebike motors because the high failure rate was putting customers off their ebikes, I think they now offer a 4 year warranty. Anyway those are made in Germany.
In fairness though mid-drive motors can be very complex often featuring belts and plastic cogs in order to reduce sound output. They also feature smaller motors so the whole assembly can fit in the bottom bracket area. It's much easier to make a reliable hub motor because of their design simplicity and motor size especially direct drive hub motors. No moving parts in direct drive hub motors at all except for the sealed bearings on the axle just like any wheel.
It's likely a Bosch motor wholly assembled in the far east would be cheaper than a motor that has its parts shipped to Europe for final assembly so it could be within 6 months Bosch motors end up cheaper.
However lets face it without EU tariffs ebikes are likely to get much cheaper and Bosch will be even less competitive. Bafang motors are more reliable and have easy access to spares and if anything their technology and engineering is better than Bosch. In fact Bafang claim to manufacture motors for many brands so maybe Bosch production or some key parts are made by Bafang for Bosch anyway.
I worked as a compliance officer at an importer previously and saw quite a few certification test reports where multiple brands including Bosch were importing the same products as us, yes they had a different cosmetic re-skin and some minor components may be different but the critical component list was the same and many brands products were on that one certification test report we were all buying from the same Chinese factory. Yet the Bosch marketing spiel was dotted with references about German engineering etc. The product was clearly fully designed, engineered, tested and manufactured in China but you would never see that on any marketing waffle from any brand.
I've got a Bosch drill that is about 40 years old and still going strong, it was made in their Swedish factory of the time. Yet I've seen reports of Bosch drills failing with their first use in recent years. You shouldn't confuse new Bosch with old Bosch which I think many people do.
I liked your post, well thought out and written, and should be force fed to any prospective Bosch Bike buyer.
With regard to Bosch drills, the green ones are cheap rubbish, they fail, as you pointed out, sometimes immediately on first usage. The professional, Black range, are quite a bit better, but here at least, far more expensive.
I usually buy Black and Decker, some I have are from the 1950s, and I use them rarely, but they still work, single speed and no clutch, ones my Father bought.
I have a professional B&D, also black, which is really powerful and mains driven, that I bought when replacing wood floors in my house, which were variable in "height". One room had a 12 cm difference! Its a very old house! I was using 120mm wood screws to hold everything level for a great many years (hopefully!) and I wore out two big powerful rechargeable drills, so I bought the B&D mains one, to drive these huge screws.
It still works fine and is usually the one I use for heavy jobs. Two speed, torque clutch, forward & backward, variable speed, and it wasn't as expensive as the green Bosch ones....
I have mentioned it before here, but when the British soldierss came back from WW2, anything that was badly made, no matter where it came from was called Bosch, as a word to describe it, up to the end of the 1950's approximately.... "A load of old Bosch" meant "a load of old rubbish!" then at least!
Andy
Last edited:
Minor correction:-
It still works fine and is usually the one I use for heavy jobs. Two GEARS not 2 speeds, torque clutch, forward & backward, variable speed, and it wasn't as expensive as the green Bosch ones....
My apologies.
Andy
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