News: ‘Twist and go’ type approval guidance emerges

[the_killjoy]

If we do leave surely all 'adopted' legislation will remain unless explicitly repealed ?

 

[flecc]

If we do leave surely all 'adopted' legislation will remain unless explicitly repealed ?

Yes, and if we set up a trade agreement with the EU, much of that law will have to remain in force as a condition of trade. That we know from the examples of Norway and Switzerland.

So the only way to get rid of those EU laws would be to leave the EU and only trade with them as an outsider with tariff barriers.

But that still wouldn't give us sovereignty and control over many key matters, since we are also bound by being a NATO member, bound by UN regulations, and still under rulings of the Court of Human Rights, and the International Court, these by separate agreements.

As Fraser (Dads Army) used to say:

"We're all doomed".
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Here is the official view

"The Motorcycle Industry Association (MCIA) and the Bicycle Association of Great Britain (BA) are the two trade associations responsible for the growing of the e-bike sector"

http://www.mcia.co.uk/About/News/Article/Electric-bicycle-moped-or-motorcycle-Can-you-tell-your-e-bike-from-your-elbow.aspx

The MCIA have a very obvious and hardly disguised ulteria motive to be involved. They are terrified of speed pedelecs and anything with a throttle encroaching into their already poor moped sales. In my opinion they have never wanted electric bicycles to succeed.

The BAGB however are now very much involved. They are taking ebikes very seriously in deed... at last! BEBA were trying to work with them for many years, they have always been interested but until quite recently have not considered ebikes as much more than a novelty.

Now nearly all their members have joined the ebike revolution, the BA have accepted electric bicycles are a very important part of the future transport mix and are acting accordingly. They have employed a consultant who is very canny and knows a huge amount about electric bicycles. A lot of us know him from his days running the electric bike magazine before it was sold to Stone Leisure. The BA launched it's Electric Bike Group when BEBA merged with them a couple of years ago, most of the BA meetings I have attended have been mainly concerned discussing electric bikes. They are very much behind ebikes now and are putting a lot of their time and resources into trying to clear up the mess we currently find ourselves in.

They are in weekly contact with the DfT and have an open dialogue, in my opinion it's a great move forward. The BA have a lot of clout.

They are pushing hard to have the throttle issue resolved and finding an easy way for manufacturers and imported to get them approved. They have already started discussing speed pedelecs.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Of course you are correct Trex, no one should be alarmed if they have a throttle on a bike as long as the bike was imported prior to 1st January 2016.

My advice, the advice of the DfT and the BA is not to buy or ride a bike with a full twist and go throttle if it was imported after the 1st January 2016. If a vehicle needs type approval to be legal on the roads but does not have it. The rider is most definitely at fault.

David,you say 'imported after the 1st January 2016',but some say 'sold after the 1st January,2016'
Do we know which to be true?
Also,are we not in the same situation as S-class bikes,these are widely sold in the UK,with the full knowledge of trading standards. I am told that it is not illegal to sell an S-class bike in the UK,provided that you tell the customer that they need to get it registered.Most dont bother to get it registered but that is the buyers responsibility not the seller.
So,it follows that it is not illegal to sell an e-bike fitted with a 15mph throttle provided that you tell the customer that they have to get it registered to use it.
I dont see any difference between the S-class situation and the full speed throttle situation. If customers choose not to get it registered that is their decision,their responsibility,provided they are aware of the law.
I see this as freedom of choice by the buyer.
KudosDave

 

[Wisper Bikes]

David,you say 'imported after the 1st January 2016',but some say 'sold after the 1st January,2016'
Do we know which to be true?
Also,are we not in the same situation as S-class bikes,these are widely sold in the UK,with the full knowledge of trading standards. I am told that it is not illegal to sell an S-class bike in the UK,provided that you tell the customer that they need to get it registered.Most dont bother to get it registered but that is the buyers responsibility not the seller.
So,it follows that it is not illegal to sell an e-bike fitted with a 15mph throttle provided that you tell the customer that they have to get it registered to use it.
I dont see any difference between the S-class situation and the full speed throttle situation. If customers choose not to get it registered that is their decision,their responsibility,provided they are aware of the law.
I see this as freedom of choice by the buyer.
KudosDave

Hi Dave, the rule is imported after 1/1/2016.

The definition we have been given for the point an import is deemed to come into the country is the date the duty was paid.

I'm not sure about the legalities of selling a bike with a throttle against the use of one. I would think selling either a bike with a throttle or a speed pedelec would bring you to the interest of Trading Standards.

A representative of he MCIA told me personally during quite a heated discussion that they would report any one selling such a bike to Trading Standards. They vehemently tell anyone that will listen that is illegal to sell them.

I really wish I could be sure we weren't putting customers at risk by selling them bikes with throttles. I would start selling them again immediately!

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

I really wish I could be sure we weren't putting customers at risk by selling them bikes with throttles.

You would be David, to me the law and what the DfT are saying is quite clear.

A pedelec with throttle has to have type approval since it is excluded from exemption (h) of 168/2013.

Type approval is under that 168/2013 which, in page 1, clause 5 of the explanations for the legislation has this:

Market surveillance in the automotive sector

Clearly that means motor vehicles.

Ergo, at present, using a pedelec imported after January 2016 and equipped with a fully acting throttle constitutes use of an unregistered motor vehicle.

That is user liability at law.

A supplier would only have some liability if they described the bike wrongly in order to persuade the customer that the bike was legal for unregistered use.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

David,if you remember I reported a certain retailer to trading standards for selling illegal S-class bikes in the UK. Trading standards reported back that it is not illegal to sell S-class bikes in the UK only to use them on UK roads.
I see many S-class bikes in use on UK roads,they are clearly not registered as light mopeds,they are being used illegally,I am told that trading standrards are aware of this and basically ignore them.
We all know the users take a risk,but that is their choice.
I see no difference with the throttle situation,if customers choose to buy a full speed throttle equipped e-bike,provided they are aware that under the Dft 'twist and go' law,effective 1st January 2016 they have to obtain Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) from the Vehicle Services Agency (DVSA).
Obviously the buyer may wish to buy the e-bike and export it to a country where the law does not apply or may wish to use it on private land with the owners permission,again exactly the same as the S-class situation.
I would welcome clarity from Trading Standards.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

David,if you remember I reported a certain retailer to trading standards for selling illegal S-class bikes in the UK. Trading standards reported back that it is not illegal to sell S-class bikes in the UK only to use them on UK roads.
I see many S-class bikes in use on UK roads,they are clearly not registered as light mopeds,they are being used illegally,I am told that trading standrards are aware of this and basically ignore them.
We all know the users take a risk,but that is their choice.
I see no difference with the throttle situation,if customers choose to buy a full speed throttle equipped e-bike,provided they are aware that under the Dft 'twist and go' law,effective 1st January 2016 they have to obtain Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) from the Vehicle Services Agency (DVSA).
I would welcome clarity from Trading Standards.
KudosDave

Agreed, underlining what I posted just above on this link
.

 

[the_killjoy]

Whilst I hear you say what Flec there are no end of illegal vehicles sold without the seller being liable quads/trial bikes/ Cat D write offs/ Segways etc so why are ebikes with throttles any different.

 

[craiggor]

A forum for custom motorcycle trikes had a guy from VOSA join.It was part of his job to answer questions.

Sent from my D101 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

Hi Dave, the rule is imported after 1/1/2016.

The definition we have been given for the point an import is deemed to come into the country is the date the duty was paid.

I'm not sure about the legalities of selling a bike with a throttle against the use of one. I would think selling either a bike with a throttle or a speed pedelec would bring you to the interest of Trading Standards.

A representative of he MCIA told me personally during quite a heated discussion that they would report any one selling such a bike to Trading Standards. They vehemently tell anyone that will listen that is illegal to sell them.

I really wish I could be sure we weren't putting customers at risk by selling them bikes with throttles. I would start selling them again immediately!

All the best, David

David (Amps),that suits me,the date upon which duty is paid. But the DfT information sheet dates December 2015 clearly states 'sold or registered after 1st January,2016.
Which is correct?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

David(Amps)....in fact throttles are in a better position than S-class bikes....an S-class bike is an S-class bike,unless you modify it extensively to light moped spec.
But an EAPC fitted with a throttle disconected surely are exempt from type approval,it is only the action to connect the throttle which makes them require type approval,that action is at the control of the buyer.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

I would suggest that members be advised clearly if they are buying a bike with full throttle:

unless you absolutely need the throttle, it is wise to leave it unplugged or switched off until the DfT can deliver the type approval for it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I would suggest that members be advised clearly if they are buying a bike with full throttle:

unless you absolutely need the throttle, it is wise to leave it unplugged or switched off until the DfT can deliver the type approval for it.

Unless of course you bought it before the 1st January 2016 or the seller/importer can prove that it was imported before the 1st January 2016....hehe what a minefield...
So,the bike does not need type approval...
1. If it was bought before the 1st January 2016
2. If it was bought after the 1st January 2016,but imported before the 1st January 2016
3. If the throttle only works up to 4 mph
4. If the throttle only works whilst pedalling...it did occur to me what is the definition of pedalling,if you are putting pressure on the pedals (like the weight of a foot),is that pedalling?
KudosDAve

 

[shemozzle999]

The MCIA have a very obvious and hardly disguised ulteria motive to be involved. They are terrified of speed pedelecs and anything with a throttle encroaching into their already poor moped sales. In my opinion they have never wanted electric bicycles to succeed.

The BAGB however are now very much involved. They are taking ebikes very seriously in deed... at last! BEBA were trying to work with them for many years, they have always been interested but until quite recently have not considered ebikes as much more than a novelty.

Now nearly all their members have joined the ebike revolution, the BA have accepted electric bicycles are a very important part of the future transport mix and are acting accordingly. They have employed a consultant who is very canny and knows a huge amount about electric bicycles. A lot of us know him from his days running the electric bike magazine before it was sold to Stone Leisure. The BA launched it's Electric Bike Group when BEBA merged with them a couple of years ago, most of the BA meetings I have attended have been mainly concerned discussing electric bikes. They are very much behind ebikes now and are putting a lot of their time and resources into trying to clear up the mess we currently find ourselves in.

They are in weekly contact with the DfT and have an open dialogue, in my opinion it's a great move forward. The BA have a lot of clout.

They are pushing hard to have the throttle issue resolved and finding an easy way for manufacturers and imported to get them approved. They have already started discussing speed pedelecs.

The question is, does the present UK EAPC law now hold any water in the eyes of the EU now that EU 168/2013 is in force here.

We only need one set of regulations but they must be fair and just and accommodate all EU citizens equally.

 

[Kudoscycles]

David (Amps),it did occur to me that our race car business has many products which can only be sold as RACE CAR USE ONLY<NOT SUITABLE FOR ROAD USE....race car brake pads that will only work at high temperature,for example.
So,there are lots of precedents to advising customers that a product cannot be used on the road,if the buyer chooses to ignore the advice then surely it is his choice and his responsibility,provided that he is clearly informed.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

If it was legal to sell a bike with an unplugged throttle all the Chinese imports I see in supermarkets here would have them.

It is legal to sell a bike with a throttle mounted if it acts as a walk along assist button. Why don't you all just sell your bikes with the throttle in walk along assist mode and make access to the instructions for converting into a full speed throttle discretely available (while all the time saying that it is illegal to do this but the information is out there <your good reason goes here>)?

Simples non?

 

[Kudoscycles]

If it was legal to sell a bike with an unplugged throttle all the Chinese imports I see in supermarkets here would have them.

It is legal to sell a bike with a throttle mounted if it acts as a walk along assist button. Why don't you all just sell your bikes with the throttle in walk along assist mode and make access to the instructions for converting into a full speed throttle discretely available (while all the time saying that it is illegal to do this but the information is out there <your good reason goes here>)?

Simples non?

AnotherKiwi.....the Chinese imports in supermarkets are built down to the last cent,anything superflous to its function is deleted. Also,the rest of Europe has no grey area about the 15mph throttle,they are illegal....we are unique in having these old regs which allowed them (well sort of).
So there is history here to providing them,if you didnt have it in the first place you dont miss it,but to have it taken away!!!!!
With regard to providing a switchable throttle that has practical problems,the controller for a 4 mph throttle is very different to a 15 mph,it can be done but at a cost.
Most of my bikes are 4 mph walk assist/set off function. But there are some customers who find the throttle very useful....I have just sold a Kudos Secret bike(imported prior to Jan 2016) to a guy with MS,most of the time he can ride the bike ok,but sometimes his illness gets the better of him and the throttle is useful to get him home.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

My controller (bog standard Chinese 15 Amp KT-LCD3) has two modes for throttle programming. It is a bit tricky you have to modify values in the "P" and the "C" parameters. It comes set as walk assist standard - about 40 W so won't move the bike with me on it but you can set it to full power.

P4 and C4 are the settings to look for if any one is interested

 

[trex]

the Lishui controllers are programmable for walk assist or full throttle mode.
Andy@Woosh has a programmer that you plug the LCD into. I think you can do the same with the bluetooth dongle (so I hope, the manual says you can). It's not practical for the end user to change.