newbie with same old question

[Deleted member 4366]

Jack, Please don't muddy the water with second hand opinions. The guy that said that the CD has no power up hills was probably a troll, or he had no idea how to control the bike. He didn't substantiate the claim in any way when requested. There's no argument about the CD being able to climb steep hills better than the 250w SWX type hub-motor in the Kudos. I've ridden both, so I'm clear on this point. I went up a 30% hill on it, which was hard work on my 500w hub-motor. I had to pedal with about the same effort, but going much slower on the CD. I'd have been pushing a bike with a SWX motor.

For a prospective buyer, the main decision point is on whether to have the more convenient hub-motor and better gear-changing against the better steep hill-climbing, potentially higher speed and quietness of the CD. After that, it's down to styling, components and price.

 

[Jimod]

I have. kudos Tourer and love it. For commuting like you wish to do , the hub gears are probably the better choice of the 2. Mine is the 9 speed derailleur and for what I use it for it's great.
I'm about 6ft and the Tourer fits me. Some of the Woosh bikes say they have 44cm frames which is 17" and is way too small for me.

The only thing more I'd say about the Kudos deal is, for my mind the Tourer is a bargain at £595.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Ray,I will try to give you an unbiased opinion of what is currently available. All these crank drive bikes have one overiding problem and my Ibex bike is no exception-they have so much power at peak torque(600 plus watts) that on steep hills with max power and max rider power the derailleur gears are snatching badly,with understanding you can mitigate the problem. Bosch and some of the chinese crank drives have a soft start solution that feeds the power in gently but this can be so slow that momentum is lost up hills. Shimano will not guarantee the Nexus hub with crank drive unless the soft start is installed.
The old 8 fun motor (SWX) works very well provided you can maintain minimum 6 mph,ideally 8 mph up any hill,below that the motor struggles to reach its minimum speed to achieve minimum motor torque. But in reality for 90% of the time this is ok and there are millions of these motors in use with riders happily riding normal bike rides. My special clearance sale is based upon Uk customer preference for mountain style bikes as opposed to dutch style classic bikes-in some ways I cannot understand it,that City bike with its curved handlebars and suspension is just so comfortable to ride but to some eyes its not 'cool',the dutch don't worry about cool they pick a bike thats comfortable to ride to work.
There is no question that the latest BPM-CST motors are better hillclimbers than the 8 fun motors primarily because the motor torque comes in at a lower speed,maybe 4 mph,which consequently helps to get into higher speeds.
This forum is an enthusiasts forum it tends to get a bit too concerned about the power of a bike without considering the overal rideability,in the end you have to try these bikes to see if you like them.
Whilst I respect that you don't like the rack mount battery,you should understand that these batteries are LifePo4 long life but heavier batteries,they may last 5 years plus and are cheap to replace but they are too bulky to fit within the frame triangle.
Kudos send all our bikes out foc,we realise there are parts of the UK where trying these bikes is difficult-so we have a current offer of delivering any bike foc,if you don't like it we will,inside one week, collect the bike for £25 cost provided the bike is still in as new condition-it would obviously be sensible to try to focus on the right bike before we despatch.
Hope that helps
KudosDave

 

[trex]

virtually all that kudosdave said is true, except that gear snatching happens also with hub bikes in similar situation when you pedal hard uphill. It does not take long to learn to minimize this annoyance on a crank drive. On balance, crank drive is better than hub drive uphill, downhill and on flat roads.
Crank drives encourage you more to pedal (and lose weight). Because crank drive lets you easily combine leg power with motor power, you tend to ride faster too.

 

[ray74]

Thank you trek and kudosdave, I have heard about the gear snatching on the cd models, I used to be a keen mountain biker and know all about it from when I used to be changing gear while adding power.

I still haven't made my mind up yet but I really do appreciate all the advice I've been given over the last couple of days, I have a few test rides booked on hub and cd bikes next Tuesday and really looking forward to seeing the difference and feeling which one will suit me best. After that I am sure I will make my mind up virtually straight away and more than likely leave my deposit on one.

I'm in Nottingham and not very hilly around here, I will be riding it to and from work in derby which is approximately 18/20 miles round trip so I think any of them would be sufficient. Plus with the £146 it saves me in monthly bus fair I know any of the models I'm looking at will pay for them selves in 5 months maximum. As everyone on here has said "try a few before you buy" which is very true tbh.

The main benefit of the cd in my eyes is that it could still give me assistance after 15.5mph, that would be great for me and save a little time on the journey to and from work. I'm still an e-bike newbie and a little bewildered by all the different motors and batteries and watts/volts etc etc but I'm sure I will get the drift of it all soon enough.

Thank you to everyone that has replied, I really do appreciate it.
Ray

 

[Kudoscycles]

Ray,its not the type of bike that allows you assistance above the 15mph legal cutoff,its the type of display thats installed....those with the King Meter display have a push button feature allowing varience with the cutoff speed,this can be on crank drive or hub drive,I am sure you are aware that this makes your bike illegal as an assisted bicycle but this subject has been discussed at length on this forum.
Good luck with whatever bike you choose.
KudosDave

 

[denwyn]

Bike ordered

Decision taken, i ordered the Kudos City this afternoon, i liked the overall look,and think the Nexus 8 hub will suit me fine,less chance of oily trousers,but the price and warranty swung it for me. Its being delivered on Monday, i will try and post a newbie first electric bike review later in the week. Thanks for all your help and advise, I'm sure i will be OK with my choice, hopefully

 

[Jimod]

I look forward to your report. Well done.

 

[grldtnr]

Yaayyhhh! You shan't be disappointed denwyn , these bikes ljust look 'cool',often get asked 'bout mine.

We got you a sale Kudos Dave!

Decision taken, i ordered the Kudos City this afternoon, i liked the overall look,and think the Nexus 8 hub will suit me fine,less chance of oily trousers,but the price and warranty swung it for me. Its being delivered on Monday, i will try and post a newbie first electric bike review later in the week. Thanks for all your help and advise, I'm sure i will be OK with my choice, hopefully

 

[jackhandy]

Jack, Please don't muddy the water with second hand opinions. The guy that said that the CD has no power up hills was probably a troll, or he had no idea how to control the bike. He didn't substantiate the claim in any way when requested. There's no argument about the CD being able to climb steep hills better than the 250w SWX type hub-motor in the Kudos. I've ridden both, so I'm clear on this point. I went up a 30% hill on it, which was hard work on my 500w hub-motor. I had to pedal with about the same effort, but going much slower on the CD. I'd have been pushing a bike with a SWX motor.

Nothing whatsoever to do do with trolls Dave:

You, yourself, have described the crank-drive motor used by Woosh & Kudos as weak.

Just goes to show how selective opinions on here can be.

I gave no "second hand opinion": Merely advised the guy to try before he buys.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Jack, Please don't muddy the water with second hand opinions. The guy that said that the CD has no power up hills was probably a troll, or he had no idea how to control the bike. He didn't substantiate the claim in any way when requested. There's no argument about the CD being able to climb steep hills better than the 250w SWX type hub-motor in the Kudos. I've ridden both, so I'm clear on this point. I went up a 30% hill on it, which was hard work on my 500w hub-motor. I had to pedal with about the same effort, but going much slower on the CD. I'd have been pushing a bike with a SWX motor.

Nothing whatsoever to do do with trolls Dave:

You, yourself, have described the crank-drive motor used by Woosh & Kudos as weak.

Just goes to show how selective opinions on here can be.

I gave no "second hand opinion": Merely advised the guy to try before he buys.

Peter,I cannot speak for the Woosh crank drive but the Kudos crank drive is certainly not weak,it is the most powerful of the Kudos range,equally powerful to the hub drive Kudos Arriba and Tornado bikes. The problem is if anything that these crank drive have too much power and the derailleur or Nexus gears cannot cope with that power,Kudos is currently working on a solution to that problem.
I don't think d8veh has ever ridden a Kudos crank drive.
Some of the chinese crank drives are very weak because they have opted to control the power using the controller to control this power ,we don't think this is the correct approach...you wouldn't buy a powerful engined car and be impressed if the manufacturer told you that the power had been reduced because the gearbox couldn't handle the torque,would you?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

Peter,I cannot speak for the Woosh crank drive but the Kudos crank drive is certainly not weak,it is the most powerful of the Kudos range,equally powerful to the hub drive Kudos Arriba and Tornado bikes. The problem is if anything that these crank drive have too much power and the derailleur or Nexus gears cannot cope with that power,Kudos is currently working on a solution to that problem.
I don't think d8veh has ever ridden a Kudos crank drive.
Some of the chinese crank drives are very weak because they have opted to control the power using the controller to control this power ,we don't think this is the correct approach...you wouldn't buy a powerful engined car and be impressed if the manufacturer told you that the power had been reduced because the gearbox couldn't handle the torque,would you?
KudosDave

I beg to differ. There simply are no weak Chinese or German crank drives.
Chinese crank drives currently in the market comprise only of the 8-Fun BBS01 and TCM (on the Ibex and Woosh CD).
My 8-Fun BBS01 is certainly not weak and I fail to comprehend the reason dave gave as to what's wrong with the way power is controlled by the 8-Fun built-in motor (sine wave) controller.
If anything, it's better than the old square wave and power is delivered smoothly the way you want, at any speed, no need to worry about minimum speed like with hub motors.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I had the Woosh on extended test. It has AFAIK the same motor as the Kudos Ibex. I tried it with the standard controller at 14 amps and then my own controller at up to 24 amps (960w). When I said weak, I was comparing it with a Bosch, 36v Panasonic, Kalkhoff Impulse and GNG. They all give substantially more torque, except, with the Woosh at 19 amps, it got closer, but still not as much as any of them. In the middle speed range, I'd say that a 250w SWX hub-motor has more torque than the Woosh, but the Woosh can keep producing the torque it has at slow and high speeds, which the hub-motors can't. That's where it gets it's advantage, so I only recommend it for heavy people, jouneys that have steep hills, or those that want to go over 15mph.

As far as I know, there's only one person that said that he couldn't getup a hill on a Woosh, and his account of it is very suspicious, but then other guys start passing it on like Chinese whispers, and that creates a misleading impression to those that are trying to decide. That's what I'm trying to avoid. My use of the word trolls was a hyperbole.

It's torque that makes a bike feel powerful. With a crank-drive, the motor torque is multiplied in a low gear, so they feel very powerful as you pull away, but each gear-change upwards reduces the torque at the wheel, so they start to feel less powerful. This initial surge can give a false impression about the power.

 

[trex]

... so I only recommend it for heavy people, jouneys that have steep hills, or those that want to go over 15mph.

where does that leave the bikes fitted with the old SWX then?

 

[jackhandy]

Ok - The crank-drive motor as fitted to Woosh bikes provides less real-world grunt than the Bosch, Kalkoff,Panasonic & Gng motors:

It comes in vanilla with a 14 amp controller, but still doesn't equal those others when the controller output is boosted to 19 amps.
Out of interest, what's the output of the Kudos controller?

Neither the Woosh or Kudos crank-drive bikes have been available to test ride at shows, within 150 miles of where I live, which means that until I, & others like me, can get to a show where they are both available for comparison with the other bikes on the market, we rely on the opinions of those that Have ridden them & done the comparison.

This said, I'll keep my observations to myself until I have a valid opinion.

 

[trex]

agreed, but Frank is going to fix it with his 48V batteries. Actually, you can run the BBS01 with 48V if you like. I wonder what the Woosh CD is like with a booster battery.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Over-volting a crank-drive doesn't work so well as om a hub-motor, because it makes the crank spin faster. You can get more power by increasing the current, which doesn't increase the crank speed. The Woosh didn't go any better with 24 amps than 19 amps. It just got hotter, so it must've been saturated.I don't know how voltage affects saturation, it might work better because of the lower current.

 

[ray74]

I've seriously been looking at the woosh sport cd and sirocco cd, I love the look and style of the sport but for the extra little bit of money I could get the sirocco and have a longer range battery. As I have said before that I will only be doing about 18/20 miles a day so the sport would need charging daily but the sirocco should theoretically last 2 journeys if in pedal assist which means the battery should theoretically last me longer.

I am a little impatient and really need a bike ASAP, been talking to Hatti this morning and looking at cycle to work scheme which means I can afford the little extra on the cd compared to the regular hub drive sport or sirocco.

I'm going to their Cambridge store tomorrow to test ride both hub and cd and judging from how they might differ I think I'll be ordering one straight after, plus if I was to do the little tweak that might give me an extra little speed then the extra ah in the battery might come in handy if I was to go for the sirocco cd.

I was reading d8veh,s review on the sirocco cd that he did earlier in the year this morning on the way to work in the bus and it all sounds good to me. As soon as I have made my decision I will let you all know and give my review on what I think of it, what ever it may be.

Thank you all again.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The main difference shows on the hills, but I don't think there are any hills in Cambridge!
Just a couple of other points: Bigger batteries hold their voltage high for longer, so you get more power; you should charge after every journey so that you use the top half of the battery, which has higher voltage for more power. There's no advantage in running a battery right down. You shouldn't do it if you can avoid it.

 

[ray74]

Ok, good tip, thanks for that. I know a little about batteries because I used to fly model aircraft with lipos and I know I had to store them at about half if I didn't use them for a while and check/charge at least once a month if stored for longer periods, especially in winter.

I've just been on goggle maps looking at where woosh are in Cambridge and I couldn't find a decent hill near them so I will just have to compromise and find a bridge or something similar. The main thing that I want to experience is the difference I might feel between the hub and cd and testing them out one after the other will be a brilliant help in my final decision.

I can't wait to get my first e-bike, I know I'll be doing a Lot more social riding once I have one.