Newbie Questions

[Creative Native]

Hi All,
I introduced myself on the forum section the other day, so I won't go into my background again. Suffice to say, I have purchased a Yosepower 36V 350W rear hub kit complete with KT-LCD3 (Y01) display and 8A rated controller with a max output of 17A +/- 1A. The battery is a 36V 18Ah 1200W Hailong-3 18650. The kit is fitted to an old Diamonback Sorrento SE steel frame I had kicking around.

The bike only serves one purpose and that is to get me to work and back 5 days a week, a round trip of a mere 8 miles, 6 of which are conducted on a pan flat tarmac cycle path. The only obstacle is a 1 mile steepish climb on road on the return trip. I have discarded the PSA sensor and rely on just the thumb throttle to engage electric assistance as and when i need it. On the flat section I can choose to just use leg power, or if I'm late for work or feel knackered, I can use the battery accordingly. Full power on the flat will produce an indicated 21mph although on the steepish hill this drops to around 12 mph. The display is indicating around 540W during high torque.

So, what would be my best setup for the bikes singular purpose? Obviously, range is not a requirement and I'm thinking of going for a 48V battery and TO9S Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller (whatever that means!!) rated at 22A and comes with the Juliet connectors, so I assume this will just plug straight into my current Yosepower setup? I'm lookng for more power, especially a tad more speed on the steep section of my route.

I found a very good Youtube video showing an all wheel drive setup, using a front and rear 350W hub motor running off a single 52V battery and two controllers. The whole rig was managed by a Cycleanalyst v3 display and Remote Shunt, all fed into a single thumb throttle. Has anyone got any experience with this setup? The only downside is Yosepower do not appear to produce a 350W front hub. Could you combine a 250W front and 350W rear on the Cycleanylist setup?

Apologies for the lengthy post!!

 

[vfr400]

I've built several two and three motor ebikes. Two motors are only necessary for off-road or similar slippery conditions. A single motor can provide all the power you need and will be cheaper and lighter.

Your motor will probably give you enough power and speed if you step up to 48v. I'd do it one step at a time. Try just the battery first. If that's still not enough, you'll need a new motor and controller.

You're missing a lot by not fitting the pedal sensor. Why did you leave it off?

 

[Andy-Mat]

Hi All,
I introduced myself on the forum section the other day, so I won't go into my background again. Suffice to say, I have purchased a Yosepower 36V 350W rear hub kit complete with KT-LCD3 (Y01) display and 8A rated controller with a max output of 17A +/- 1A. The battery is a 36V 18Ah 1200W Hailong-3 18650. The kit is fitted to an old Diamonback Sorrento SE steel frame I had kicking around.

The bike only serves one purpose and that is to get me to work and back 5 days a week, a round trip of a mere 8 miles, 6 of which are conducted on a pan flat tarmac cycle path. The only obstacle is a 1 mile steepish climb on road on the return trip. I have discarded the PSA sensor and rely on just the thumb throttle to engage electric assistance as and when i need it. On the flat section I can choose to just use leg power, or if I'm late for work or feel knackered, I can use the battery accordingly. Full power on the flat will produce an indicated 21mph although on the steepish hill this drops to around 12 mph. The display is indicating around 540W during high torque.

So, what would be my best setup for the bikes singular purpose? Obviously, range is not a requirement and I'm thinking of going for a 48V battery and TO9S Torque Simulation Sine Wave Controller (whatever that means!!) rated at 22A and comes with the Juliet connectors, so I assume this will just plug straight into my current Yosepower setup? I'm lookng for more power, especially a tad more speed on the steep section of my route.

I found a very good Youtube video showing an all wheel drive setup, using a front and rear 350W hub motor running off a single 52V battery and two controllers. The whole rig was managed by a Cycleanalyst v3 display and Remote Shunt, all fed into a single thumb throttle. Has anyone got any experience with this setup? The only downside is Yosepower do not appear to produce a 350W front hub. Could you combine a 250W front and 350W rear on the Cycleanylist setup?

Apologies for the lengthy post!!

Using a 36v motor on a 48v battery will usually work unless especially forbidden by the motor manufacturer. The main questions is how long? The only example that I personally knew of lasted less than a year, but I also do not know just ho the controller was set up either....
May I suggest that you go for reliability and possibly guarantee reasons, and simply buy a very large 36v battery!
There are a few here who will say that I am being overly cautious, and that 36v motors can handle 48 volts, which may even be perfectly true, but they are also not going to be the ones to dip their hands in their pockets to assist you financially in replacing anything that possibly gets damaged, as a result of their advice either!
So do take such/any advice with a very large pinch of salt!! But at the end, its your choice either way.
Putting a second motor of either wattage at the front, should work well for you in getting up those hills far faster! Probably a lot better acceleration than you have now, so I do not see a problem with that, though I hasten to add, I have never seen it done either, but it makes good sense to me!
Also, be wary of putting too much current through a motor, as it may cause some to overheat.
The theoretical max current for a 250 watt motor on 36 volts max, is just under 7 amps. But of course there is some leeway, if the over current happens only occasionally and the motor is well made and is cooled well by the air as you cycle, I would stick my neck out and say that it would probably work fine, with a maximum of double that current, say up to 14 amps, programmed into the controller.
Using a 48 volt battery, the theoretical maximum current actually drops to just over 5 amps, so a maximum of 10 should be fine in practice, I feel.
Remember, I am discussing the power dissipated in the windings of a 250 watt motor.
For a 350 watt motor, the values are at 48 volts, about 7.3 amps and for a 36 volt battery 9.7 amps.
These values are just to give you an approximate idea, and in practise, may be as I mentioned, exceeded, within reason, for short periods of time, generally without problem when riding the bike.
Current draw is almost never a completely steady value.
You may actually find, that setting the controller to say only 150% current only, may allow your bike to be ridden with no apparent difference, BUT that the controller, in a worse case situation, will only allow that lesser current to flow, prolonging the life of the motor, and of course the charge in the battery....
Not forgetting, the actual long term life of the battery, that will possibly be marginally better too!
If you have any further questions, just ask.
Andy

 

[Creative Native]

I've built several two and three motor ebikes. Two motors are only necessary for off-road or similar slippery conditions. A single motor can provide all the power you need and will be cheaper and lighter.

Your motor will probably give you enough power and speed if you step up to 48v. I'd do it one step at a time. Try just the battery first. If that's still not enough, you'll need a new motor and controller.

You're missing a lot by not fitting the pedal sensor. Why did you leave it off?

Two reasons I left off the PAS:
1. The mtb was fitted with a Octalink crank bearing and Shimano cranks. I did not want to purchase a Sq taper bearing and cranks when the octalink setup was in good nick.
2. Just using the thumb throttle allows me to use the battery power in an instance, if and when I need it. Some days I just want to use leg power (other than the hill part). I know you can adjust the amount of assistance on the display, but I find it easier to just either use, or not use the thumb throttle.

 

[Nealh]

All my bikes with PAS magnet ring have Hollowtech 11 crank sets, it is no obstacle to fitting PAS as is little different to Octalink. There are many threads in the search area for those of us who have easily done it.

 

[Nealh]

Most hubs will take over volting, more to the point is how much extra current the motor can take. The nylon clutch gears will give before any cooper winding suffers.
With the AKM100 about 20a continuous is the limit, my AKM128 has been ok with a 25a controller but then I don't use PAS5 or throttle very often the extra current alone in PAS2 I find for most riding (except steep hills) more then ample for me.
Along with the AKM, I have successfully over volted the Yose hub , Bafang BPM and CST. The issue is gauging how to use the extra current sensibly without causing damage.

If someone wants to try it out then they should know that they may risk damage and have funds or ability to repair the hub, ebike diy isn't cheap esp if you get the bug. If this is the case money usually isn't to much of an issue.

Bafang hubs can be abused even the SWXH, on pedelecs.de forum a guy put 40 45a through his but did modify the nylon gears with steel ones and add some oil cooling.

 

[Nealh]

Giving a 36v hub full WOT at 48v with a 20a + controller will likely at some stage cause melt down, using and fitting a decent PAS system will alleviate the need to cause melt down as on flatish terrain full WOT isn't needed to maintain max speed.
All full WOT does is eat the battery quicker and aid quicker acceleration, top speed can still be had the same in PAS 1 or 2.
Generally wants to be totally lazy it makes sense to have a moped or scooter.

I even at times ride my AKM128 with no power and tow a trailer on even ground or slight ascents, the AKM hubs have internal gearing ratio of about 10:1 - 13:1 a much better ratio then most hubs at 5:1 which makes unassisted riding a lot easier.

 

[vfr400]

There's always a way to bodge a pedal sensor. All you need is the magnets going round with the pedals and the sensor on a bracket to hold it in the right position. you can make your own bracket. You can glue the magnets to your chainring, but they have to be the right way up. Test which way the PAS works when connected but not installed, then mark the magnets so that you know. You can press them out of the plastic disc quite easily.

Contrary to what our resident troll has found out from his irrelevant internet research, your motor can run at 48v without any problems provided you don't go over 18 amps. It can work at 22 amps, but you have to be more careful about how long you use maximum power at low speed. The PAS helps a lot because you can adjust the power to the motor regardless of the controller's maximum and regardless of the bike's speed. The throttle is a speed controller, so it's not as easy to control the power.

The ideal situation is to have PAS and throttle. You use the PAS most of the time for convenience, and the throttle when you need a boost or when starting off. Bear in mind that throttles are only made of thin plastic, and they break very easily, which could leave you stranded. I've broken two of them on rough roads going uphill. I was holding full throttle when I hit a bump. The jerk on my body bust the throttle stop, which leaves the bike running at half-throttle all the time.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Most hubs will take over volting, more to the point is how much extra current the motor can take. The nylon clutch gears will give before any cooper winding suffers.
With the AKM100 about 20a continuous is the limit, my AKM128 has been ok with a 25a controller but then I don't use PAS5 or throttle very often the extra current alone in PAS2 I find for most riding (except steep hills) more then ample for me.
Along with the AKM, I have successfully over volted the Yose hub , Bafang BPM and CST. The issue is gauging how to use the extra current sensibly without causing damage.

If someone wants to try it out then they should know that they may risk damage and have funds or ability to repair the hub, ebike diy isn't cheap esp if you get the bug. If this is the case money usually isn't to much of an issue.

Bafang hubs can be abused even the SWXH, on pedelecs.de forum a guy put 40 45a through his but did modify the nylon gears with steel ones and add some oil cooling.

...but will you (or anyone with similar advice) help him out financially if he gets ANY sort of a failure because of drawing too much current through the motor?
You did use the right word for this sort of usage:- "abused", for which I fully agree with you.
One should ask oneself that question ALWAYS when posting advice I feel, or at least to post a disclaimer.
Far too often here on Pedelec, I see posts from people simply saying too much about "over-volting" is OK, with no thought to the possible costs and inconvenience involved if something fails.
One might even say "revolting" is a better word for "over-volting" perhaps?
Have a great day
Andy

 

[vfr400]

...but will you (or anyone with similar advice) help him out financially if he gets ANY sort of a failure because of drawing too much current through the motor?
You did use the right word for this sort of usage:- "abused", for which I fully agree with you.
One should ask oneself that question ALWAYS when posting advice I feel, or at least to post a disclaimer.
Far too often here on Pedelec, I see posts from people simply saying too much about "over-volting" is OK, with no thought to the possible costs and inconvenience involved if something fails.
One might even say "revolting" is a better word for "over-volting" perhaps?
Have a great day
Andy

I thought you said that you knew about electrical things. How will too much current go through the motor when his controller limits it to 17 amps?

In case you don't know, for the same power, there is less current at 48v compared with 36v. Here's the formula for you.
Power = current x volts

Example 1: 36v battery 250w input power current = power/volts = 6.94 amps
Example 2: 48v battery 250w input power current = power/volts = 5.21 amps

 

[Andy-Mat]

I thought you said that you knew about electrical things. How will too much current go through the motor when his controller limits it to 17 amps? In case you don't know, for the same power, there is less current at 48v compared with 36v. Here's the formula for you.
Power = current x volts

You still fail to comprehend accurate posts and anything to do electricity.
Which is why I simply try and moderate such bad information "thrown about" here on Pedelec, by certain persons, with good information.
So either you did not read it carefully, or did not understand it, your problem as ever....
My personal hope being is that the OP, gets a fuller and better understanding of what he has asked about, with the information I supply.
I also offer to answer any questions he may have.
It does not bother me in the slightest if you, and your friends, make wild, rude and inaccurate statements, about things you do not understand!
Thats simply your funeral.

 

[Nealh]

The troll reads to much but doesn't actually try any of the theories out, theories and practice are two different worlds.

Any one already thinking of over volting or increasing current will or should know that cost will be involved and failure may occur but a bit of common sense with use will not lead fire in hell. Hubs are fairly cheap often less then $150 US and controllers less then $40 US, ebike modding doesn't come cheap,cheap but is reasonable if you have the funds. My Mrs spends more on clothes and shoes then I ever spen on my self so in my case ebiking works out cheaper.

 

[Nealh]

VFR (tufkad/d8veh) has been giving out advice well before I joined some five and a bit years ago and many have used his tried and tested advice without complaint.
I haven't yet seen one reply where an irate user has asked for money back, all know that they risk failure and accept the risk is their own.
Most hubs tend to be over designed and have far more ability for the user to modify/abuse them above their operating limits. The weakest point is the nylon gears but these can be swapped out for metal gears, though they are more costly to buy and replace.
It is pointless trying to play the one-upmanship game by claiming to be bigger and better and scoring points when other have successfully modified kit to work.

 

[vfr400]

In the 10 years I've been building and converting electric bikes, I've run 36v motors up to 64V and doubled 24v ones to 48V. I've never had a single motor failure, nor have any of the guys that I built the bikes for. That must be over 100 motors by now. I'm not including when my GNG crank drive's output sprocket snapped in two when I increased the current from the controller.

Our resident forum member Cwah is the expert at burning motors. Ask him how much current and voltage it takes to burn them. He ran a tiny 36v Q100 at 48v and 20 amps, which it survived until it eventually succumbed to rust.

 

[Creative Native]

Thanks for all the response. Unfortunately, I'm as thick as a whale omelette when it comes to electronics.

Are you saying my 36V controller will work with 48V excitation or do I have to purchase a 48V controller and limit it to 18A? Topbikekit appear to sell a few variants.

I understand various concerns regarding longevity and possible damage by upping to 48V, although reading miscellaneous posts it does seem quite popular and so I assume reliable upgrade.

I will also fit the PSA and see whether I experience any advantage.

 

[mike killay]

Safest thing to do is ignore Andy-Mat. He has only recently arrived yet strongly suspected of having been on this forum under different names in the past.
He scours the internet for answers to questions posed by newcomers, then often posts partial or wrong information.
He delights in pouring scorn on others in a school masterly way.

 

[vfr400]

Thanks for all the response. Unfortunately, I'm as thick as a whale omelette when it comes to electronics.

Are you saying my 36V controller will work with 48V excitation or do I have to purchase a 48V controller and limit it to 18A? Topbikekit appear to sell a few variants.

I understand various concerns regarding longevity and possible damage by upping to 48V, although reading miscellaneous posts it does seem quite popular and so I assume reliable upgrade.

I will also fit the PSA and see whether I experience any advantage.

It depends which controller version you have. What's written on the label?

 

[Creative Native]

It depends which controller version you have. What's written on the label?

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been down the pub!!

The controller label reads:

Model: KT36ZWSRTD-EP01
Rated Voltage: DC36V
Rated Current: 8A
Low Voltage Protection: DC30 +/- 0.5V
Maximum Current: 17 +/- 1A
Speed Set: Hall Sensor
Brake Input: Low level

I assume from the above that I will require a specific 48V Controller, namely the TO9S rated at 22A??

On a different note, personally, I think unless you tinker and experiment with the possibilities, no advancement with the stock available merchandise will be realised. All of the electric bike components do not appear to be vastly overpriced, the battery maybe the exception and even that, if well maintained will return a good few years of service.

So, coming back to my original question, if I do indeed need the TO9S controller with Juliet connectors, will this replace my existing controller without the need for wiring configuration changes, basically just a straight swop?

 

[Nealh]

Your current 36v controller won't hack it at 48v and the first thing to go will be the main inrush capacitor which is only 50v rated, a 48v battery will be 54.6v fully charge.
T09S should be good if you have 1T4 trunk cable, just check that you have 8 pins outs on your existing Julet so you know it will fit.
Julets will be a standard pin out, check that the controller has the same M/F connectors as your Yose one.

 

[vfr400]

I think 22 amps is a bit high for your motor at 48V unless you know what you're doing.