Newbie - on the verge of purchase
- Thread starter BossBob
- Start date
Yes, I know I went on a bit (I'm not very concise at the best of times), but believe me flecc, the izip I rode was just about the worst bike to pedal that I've ever ridden, probably far worse than the cheapest, heaviest steel framed mountain bike 'lookalike' you could find!!! Ride one of those after the izip & you'd feel like Lance Armstrong on a speed bike!! At least one other member here has said the izip was 'horrid' (their words).And given that Rab, who describes which gears he uses for slopes on his 10-speed racer, appears to me to be a rather more discerning and experienced cyclist, and new to the potential downsides of some ebikes, I thought he would prefer to be aware of the pedalling difficulty 'issues' with the Izip (which go way beyond those you'd expect from just a 'heavy' bike, which make little difference really except on slopes) given he is considering it and presumably would like the option at least of pedal-assisting the motor.
Stuart.
I think there must have been something seriously wrong with that one Stuart. I've ridden a Currie motored steel frame SLA bike very similar to the Izip and it wasn't anything like that bad. I certainly wouldn't want to pedal it unpowered, but frankly that's the way I feel about nearly all electric bikes, nothing like a good normal bike for cycling only, but I could pedal with motor without any problems.
In the case of the bike you rode, I can only think that the drive train to the wheel was binding somewhere the rider side of the freewheel action, and I'm sure it must have been solvable.
But as you say, there's no substitute for trying a bike, though I fear Rab won't find anything around £300 to be anything remotely like his roadrace bike.
.
In the case of the bike you rode, I can only think that the drive train to the wheel was binding somewhere the rider side of the freewheel action, and I'm sure it must have been solvable.
But as you say, there's no substitute for trying a bike, though I fear Rab won't find anything around £300 to be anything remotely like his roadrace bike.
.
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Yes, all along I've considered that a possibility. However, both FatBoy and CanadianCadence, who own exactly the same model, have described exactly the same experiences as me, aswell as Brookesy finding her test ride awful/horrid (I forget which!) though she didn't specify exactly why, which incline me towards it being a general flaw, though possibly fixable as you say. Although I totally agree it would probably never feel like a 'non-electric' bike to ride, even then!flecc said:
I managed to ride it for about 100yds before I gave it up as a non-starter for me... I repeat that I definitely recommend a test ride, especially on an izip for the reasons I've said, before buying, unless one is really not fussed about pedalling an ebike... which almost sounds self-contradictory to me, but there's 'owt like folks, eh?...
Stuart.
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Some thread guys
Ok, update time ...... of which I fear there may be many !!!
I went to the shop in Leith today and had a chat about the Salsbury, which was out on loan, but they had a Windsor and many others in stock. Duncan, at the shop, agreed about one thing, you don't buy till you've tried and preferably on your own route. And he agrees you don't want to be pedaling a 30 odd Kilo bike around with no power, plus, you get what you pays for .... in terms of quality and features.
Amongst others he had a UM44 in stock, which I quite liked, it had the optional torque sensor fitted and looked a quality bit of kit, not a bike I have seen much about on here.
What I learned was immense, a better understanding of the functions, particularly the "pedal motion sensor" giving me full power from the motor and the "torque sensor" giving me variable power to match my effort ..... all that is now clear. I probably conclude I need to reconsider my budget
I have read the whole thread BTW and am off to read it, and others, again. I don't mind the opposing views for at least as coops said, forewarned is forearmed, and I agree. I have also read a "rave" review of the Izip (can't find it now) where the owner got it as a cheap stand in for his much more expensive hub powered bike and loved it, thought it accelerated much better than his other one, but there has to be a price to be paid for that performance ....... short battery life maybe?
And woe betide me if the battery runs out ..... that much I have learned!
OR
Do I up the budget and settle for a dearer one I have tried and tested which is very limiting, a Salsbury or a UM44. Not a very big cross section is it?
There must be a better way of doing this based on the experience of others.
Arrrghh .... my head is mince
Ok, update time ...... of which I fear there may be many !!!
I went to the shop in Leith today and had a chat about the Salsbury, which was out on loan, but they had a Windsor and many others in stock. Duncan, at the shop, agreed about one thing, you don't buy till you've tried and preferably on your own route. And he agrees you don't want to be pedaling a 30 odd Kilo bike around with no power, plus, you get what you pays for .... in terms of quality and features.
Amongst others he had a UM44 in stock, which I quite liked, it had the optional torque sensor fitted and looked a quality bit of kit, not a bike I have seen much about on here.
What I learned was immense, a better understanding of the functions, particularly the "pedal motion sensor" giving me full power from the motor and the "torque sensor" giving me variable power to match my effort ..... all that is now clear. I probably conclude I need to reconsider my budget
I have read the whole thread BTW and am off to read it, and others, again. I don't mind the opposing views for at least as coops said, forewarned is forearmed, and I agree. I have also read a "rave" review of the Izip (can't find it now) where the owner got it as a cheap stand in for his much more expensive hub powered bike and loved it, thought it accelerated much better than his other one, but there has to be a price to be paid for that performance ....... short battery life maybe?
And woe betide me if the battery runs out ..... that much I have learned!
OK ..... so I have a dilema, I know of nowhere I can test an Izip, I have to buy it on spec, or forget it.
OR
Do I up the budget and settle for a dearer one I have tried and tested which is very limiting, a Salsbury or a UM44. Not a very big cross section is it?
There must be a better way of doing this based on the experience of others.
Arrrghh .... my head is mince
Thanks for the update Rab, and glad you're getting some 'hands on'/first hand experience plus more information on ebikes - it all helps .I really don't want to mince your head further Rab, or muddy the way, and I too like the look of some of the UM bikes (though functionality and performance of some, like UM36, seems les than ideal), but have you seen the recent thread/s about "rubbish" UM customer service/support...? (You did agree about being forewarned, didn't you?
) Presumably, even if you were to buy from a local dealer, you'd ultimately be reliant on UM for support, which doesn't bode well it seems...I promise I'll post some good news relevant to your quest, when I can think of some....
upping your budget a bit improves the odds though .Stuart.
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We have had threads on the UM bikes with regard to people not liking the pedelec function. From those discussions it seemed the torque sensor was essential for reasonable operation, but still not ideal for some as it gave a sort of flexing feel to the pedalling. As you say, UM seems to have dropped out of the picture more recently, probably because the rather similar looking but more powerful Wisper 905e has been available at around £749 internet price via ebay.
There are quite a few bike dealers with Izips, but possibly not in your general area. If you cannot get a trial on an Izip anywhere, obviously it must be ruled out, since a trial is important on most bikes, only a few of the best and most respected ones possibly exempt from that.
More money would definitely solve the problem, a Liv, but with an NiMh battery to cope with your territory could do the job at about £645, more powerful and faster than the Powacycle models, but it only has a three speed hub gear against their six speed derailleurs, so the steepest hills could be tough.
.
There are quite a few bike dealers with Izips, but possibly not in your general area. If you cannot get a trial on an Izip anywhere, obviously it must be ruled out, since a trial is important on most bikes, only a few of the best and most respected ones possibly exempt from that.
More money would definitely solve the problem, a Liv, but with an NiMh battery to cope with your territory could do the job at about £645, more powerful and faster than the Powacycle models, but it only has a three speed hub gear against their six speed derailleurs, so the steepest hills could be tough.
.
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LOL
you guys like to pack a punch !!!
I am very restricted for test rides and dealers, I intend visiting the only other one I know of on Wednesday to see what they have/offer.
As if to support your views on the UM ..... it is second hand, returned for reasons unknown by its owner
I quite liked that one too, seems my judgement is pretty crap, huh??
Funnily enough, more money solves most problems
I have just been reading on the Livi, but concluded the 3 speed gears unlikely to suit my needs, no test ride available and priced just too high.
I think a test on the Salsbury is now on the cards, probably at the weekend, which will give me first hand experience of all the pro's and cons of the features. And certain knowledge as to whether it will do the job, I really do not want to pay that much, never mind more but if needs must it makes sense.
later
luvin the crack BTW
you guys like to pack a punch !!!
I am very restricted for test rides and dealers, I intend visiting the only other one I know of on Wednesday to see what they have/offer.
As if to support your views on the UM ..... it is second hand, returned for reasons unknown by its owner
I quite liked that one too, seems my judgement is pretty crap, huh??
Funnily enough, more money solves most problems
I have just been reading on the Livi, but concluded the 3 speed gears unlikely to suit my needs, no test ride available and priced just too high.
I think a test on the Salsbury is now on the cards, probably at the weekend, which will give me first hand experience of all the pro's and cons of the features. And certain knowledge as to whether it will do the job, I really do not want to pay that much, never mind more but if needs must it makes sense.
later
luvin the crack BTW
I'm glad you're seeing the funny side of seeming dashed at every turn! I was rather worried I'd put you off the whole idea!OK then, enough of the softly softly approach, now I'll really start telling it like it is... only joking!
I wouldn't question your judgement on the UM bikes, I like their looks too and considered getting one once, but look closer and you find they're sadly let down a little by both function and technical support.
The Liv has quite a simple gear setup and, although only three gears, the wide spaced hub gear is actually very well suited for the laid back, effective ebike, allowing both ease of gear change (can be done stationary unlike derailleur) and reducing number of up or down gear shifts required when accelerating or decelerating: a wide gear range but with a lower number of gears is ideal for an ebike, because the faster acceleration of the motor requires you to needlessly upshift through many gears otherwise, and it can be even more irritating downshifting 4, 5 or 6 gears!!
Good luck with the Salisbury test: check the top speed of the motor & try it out on a few steep slopes as test of its lower peak power
.And enjoy it while you can - ride with a smile
!Stuart.
I just want to clarify some of the observations about the iZIP. The one I own is exactly like the one talked about in the link posted by Rab at the beginning of this thread. There is an iZIP folder that has a hub motor (looks like a Quando) in the same price range and is often sold with the external motor iZIP .
The poor performance of this bike has had me baffled and I have checked out many things....free wheeling, brakes,motor problems and even the chains. The only thing that I can come up with is that the bike is geared too high for its weight.
On a fresh charge the bike runs with mediocre torque for about 5 minutes and then drops to its poor performance for the rest of the ride needing a lot of input from the rider (yes the battery checks out)
I am glad ,Rab ,to see you are trying to get some test rides especially for the hills and area you are going to be travelling in your commute.
I have to reply to Fleccs early comment on the Bionx. I have two friends that just bought 250's and they do not have the power of the 350 but they will out climb the iZIP with twice the speed and half the effort . I wonder if the setting in the UK has hampered the 250 you tried. It would be interesting to change the setting or derestrict it to see the results. All three of these bikes have no drag and run great with the system turned off. We all have them on aluminum mountain bikes with 24 speeds and I think this is why we are getting good results with these kits.
The poor performance of this bike has had me baffled and I have checked out many things....free wheeling, brakes,motor problems and even the chains. The only thing that I can come up with is that the bike is geared too high for its weight.
On a fresh charge the bike runs with mediocre torque for about 5 minutes and then drops to its poor performance for the rest of the ride needing a lot of input from the rider (yes the battery checks out)
I am glad ,Rab ,to see you are trying to get some test rides especially for the hills and area you are going to be travelling in your commute.
I have to reply to Fleccs early comment on the Bionx. I have two friends that just bought 250's and they do not have the power of the 350 but they will out climb the iZIP with twice the speed and half the effort . I wonder if the setting in the UK has hampered the 250 you tried. It would be interesting to change the setting or derestrict it to see the results. All three of these bikes have no drag and run great with the system turned off. We all have them on aluminum mountain bikes with 24 speeds and I think this is why we are getting good results with these kits.
Tesco direct sell a version of the iZip called the Meerkat Metro at £349. I'm not sure how it would apply in this case but Tesco are normally very good about returns, at least in their stores. It might be worth enquiring whether you could send it back if it proved unsuitable.
Also I believe the Synergie importers are based in Inverkeithing, there might be an oportunity for a trial there.
Also I believe the Synergie importers are based in Inverkeithing, there might be an oportunity for a trial there.
Yes, I'm fairly sure thats exactly the same bike Ian - meerkat, mongoose etc. its all the same comes in a men's and a unisex/ladies'/stepover version and has also been seen in Dixons/Currys too (or rather on their 'virtual' shop, on the internet ). I almost posted the same as you, but am 90% sure it'll be sent back & a waste of time .
50Cycles, who have a clear policy of only selling good quality bikes have tried selling the izips - more as a 'price breakthrough' which it was, but given that what they have left is on clearance, I get the impression they won't be doing so for long...
Some have said good things about SustainCycles too for value for money (as in 'Tesco value' i.e. quite cheap!) - where are they based? Anywhere nearby?
Stuart.
comes in a men's and a unisex/ladies'/stepover version and has also been seen in Dixons/Currys too (or rather on their 'virtual' shop, on the internet ). I almost posted the same as you, but am 90% sure it'll be sent back & a waste of time .50Cycles, who have a clear policy of only selling good quality bikes have tried selling the izips - more as a 'price breakthrough' which it was, but given that what they have left is on clearance, I get the impression they won't be doing so for long...
Some have said good things about SustainCycles too for value for money (as in 'Tesco value' i.e. quite cheap!
) - where are they based? Anywhere nearby?Stuart.
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The Meercat Metro is the Izip.
Sustain are based in the London area, but their bikes are Synergies which are available in Scotland as Ian has said.
50cycles gave up the Izip long ago, as it was only a stopgap budget bike pending the Liv arrival. They had one demonstrator left over which they wanted to get rid of.
.
Sustain are based in the London area, but their bikes are Synergies which are available in Scotland as Ian has said.
50cycles gave up the Izip long ago, as it was only a stopgap budget bike pending the Liv arrival. They had one demonstrator left over which they wanted to get rid of.
.
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Thanks guys .....
The "other one" I referred to in post 28 is indeed Synergie
in the PDF file on their brochure page they have a couple that may interest me, primarily the Mistral, but I can look and get a feel for them all.
I have seen the Futuro on Ebay new for £100 less, I suspect it may be a dealer cutting his margin, if so, he might do me a Mistral at a good price. Also, it has Lithium batteries which has two benefits.
1) I can try out the Mistral with Lithium on my route to see if there are any issues.
2) I can see what the reduction would be to drop it to the NiMH batteries.
It and the Salsbury are priced alike, so it is down to performance / preference
I think I have veered away from the £300 price range, but I am hoping to stay within £500
more later
thanks again
Rab
The "other one" I referred to in post 28 is indeed Synergie
in the PDF file on their brochure page they have a couple that may interest me, primarily the Mistral, but I can look and get a feel for them all.
I have seen the Futuro on Ebay new for £100 less, I suspect it may be a dealer cutting his margin, if so, he might do me a Mistral at a good price. Also, it has Lithium batteries which has two benefits.
1) I can try out the Mistral with Lithium on my route to see if there are any issues.
2) I can see what the reduction would be to drop it to the NiMH batteries.
It and the Salsbury are priced alike, so it is down to performance / preference
I think I have veered away from the £300 price range, but I am hoping to stay within £500
more later
thanks again
Rab
You'll be relieved to hear I've no experience of synergie bikes, Rab I don't recall much information about them on this site either though, except for the odd thread mostly on the pro's and cons of 'budget' price bikes .
Stuart.
I don't recall much information about them on this site either though, except for the odd thread mostly on the pro's and cons of 'budget' price bikes .Stuart.
Well if the other synergie bikes live up to that glowing Shamal review (thanks flecc) then one of them might be the bike for you then Rab? Hope so & good luck at the Synergie dealer - its good that you can try & buy these bikes fairly local, I think.
Futuro looks to very similar to Powabyke in design, whether motor power is roughly equivalent is unclear but the shamal motor sounds very useful in power terms & the futuro should give quite acceptable torque with a similarly powered motor with appropriate rpm for 25mph in 26" wheels. Less than half the cost of Powabyke & 36V battery too, with the same downside of heavy frame & lead-acid batteries (total 39kg), but if it performs well & motor is sufficient for your hills it compares well for both spec & price with the izip - especially if you can get it less for £400 as you say .
Mistral has several owners here I've read recently, actually, and looks a lighter, sleeker option with much lighter (& higher capacity I think) lithium batteries & possibly a light frame too at its 24kg total weight. All else being equal, its worth the premium over the Futuro in my view, a side by side test ride if possible would allow a direct comparison.
Let us know how you get on if you test them & all the best, Rab.
P.S. I'd definitely enquire about availability of replacement batteries, especially the lithium (in case you decide to use the bike longer term), although the battery case used on the mistral looks a not uncommon part from the 'parts bin' used on other bikes, so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding replacements (a benefit of many shared parts between different bikes!)
Stuart.
Hope so & good luck at the Synergie dealer - its good that you can try & buy these bikes fairly local, I think.Futuro looks to very similar to Powabyke in design, whether motor power is roughly equivalent is unclear but the shamal motor sounds very useful in power terms & the futuro should give quite acceptable torque with a similarly powered motor with appropriate rpm for 25mph in 26" wheels
. Less than half the cost of Powabyke & 36V battery too, with the same downside of heavy frame & lead-acid batteries (total 39kg), but if it performs well & motor is sufficient for your hills it compares well for both spec & price with the izip - especially if you can get it less for £400 as you say .Mistral has several owners here I've read recently, actually, and looks a lighter, sleeker option with much lighter (& higher capacity I think) lithium batteries & possibly a light frame too at its 24kg total weight. All else being equal, its worth the premium over the Futuro in my view, a side by side test ride if possible would allow a direct comparison
.Let us know how you get on if you test them & all the best, Rab.
P.S. I'd definitely enquire about availability of replacement batteries, especially the lithium (in case you decide to use the bike longer term), although the battery case used on the mistral looks a not uncommon part from the 'parts bin' used on other bikes, so you shouldn't have too much trouble finding replacements (a benefit of many shared parts between different bikes!)
Stuart.
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Been for my first pedelec run today ...... well 2 actually!
Both bikes were from Synergie, and don't forget these are the first assisted bikes I have tried. He was clean out of the Mistral I went to see ..... sellin like hot cakes and no more till Nov, with several already spoken for!
First up - The G2 Avanti, top of the range MB style, supension front and rear, front wheel drive and 24v LI battery pack, the motion sensor was broken so throttle use only, no Nimh alternative available
The suspension was solid enough I didn't really notice it was there so it probably does a good job, it pedaled OK without power, so I could get it home in an emergency, I only used the top 6 gears so while it has 18 the other 12 are for going up rock faces
It didn't have a very powerful motor, not near as much assistance as I had anticipated, it seemed slow ..... I go much quicker on my racer especially downhill where I found the rolling resistance quite a drag (he he he, "drag" get it? ) sorry .. where was I .. yes downhill, it was like a travelling parachute! I lost so much on the downhill approach to one of my regular home run steep uphills that I had to pedal much further than usual, twice as much, and at a slower pace and I'm in doubt if it was any easier.
Highly unlikely purchase - rolling resistance, 12 gears I don't need, lacking in uphill heave.
So, second up - The Futuro, 39Kg steel with 36v SLA batts, suspension front and rear. Well, right off it had noticeably more push from the motor, it climbed a bit better but still needed a fair bit of input from me. Far less rolling resistance but not the freewheeler my racer is, so again I had to start pedaling very early but there was more assistance. Unfortunately the frame / pedal / seat config was all wrong for me, I stopped 3 times to adjust the seat and eventually with it so high I was tip toe down only the crank was still too close to me for comfy pedaling. Bizzare, why would they make a bloody crank so high? ..... made for real short folks this one is.
Ruled out - didn't fit, carried its weight well, went uphill (assisted) just didn't fit.
Re the rear suspension, he did say he could make it rigid if I liked by making a rod to fit in where the shock goes.
And on the Li batteries, he has not had any problems. He confirmed they have a thermal cut out but had not had any customers come back to him as it being a problem.
So ...... day one on a pedalec
Rab
Both bikes were from Synergie, and don't forget these are the first assisted bikes I have tried. He was clean out of the Mistral I went to see ..... sellin like hot cakes and no more till Nov, with several already spoken for!
First up - The G2 Avanti, top of the range MB style, supension front and rear, front wheel drive and 24v LI battery pack, the motion sensor was broken so throttle use only, no Nimh alternative available
The suspension was solid enough I didn't really notice it was there so it probably does a good job, it pedaled OK without power, so I could get it home in an emergency, I only used the top 6 gears so while it has 18 the other 12 are for going up rock faces
It didn't have a very powerful motor, not near as much assistance as I had anticipated, it seemed slow ..... I go much quicker on my racer especially downhill where I found the rolling resistance quite a drag (he he he, "drag" get it? ) sorry .. where was I .. yes downhill, it was like a travelling parachute! I lost so much on the downhill approach to one of my regular home run steep uphills that I had to pedal much further than usual, twice as much, and at a slower pace and I'm in doubt if it was any easier.
Highly unlikely purchase - rolling resistance, 12 gears I don't need, lacking in uphill heave.
So, second up - The Futuro, 39Kg steel with 36v SLA batts, suspension front and rear. Well, right off it had noticeably more push from the motor, it climbed a bit better but still needed a fair bit of input from me. Far less rolling resistance but not the freewheeler my racer is, so again I had to start pedaling very early but there was more assistance. Unfortunately the frame / pedal / seat config was all wrong for me, I stopped 3 times to adjust the seat and eventually with it so high I was tip toe down only the crank was still too close to me for comfy pedaling. Bizzare, why would they make a bloody crank so high? ..... made for real short folks this one is.
Ruled out - didn't fit, carried its weight well, went uphill (assisted) just didn't fit.
Re the rear suspension, he did say he could make it rigid if I liked by making a rod to fit in where the shock goes.
And on the Li batteries, he has not had any problems. He confirmed they have a thermal cut out but had not had any customers come back to him as it being a problem.
So ...... day one on a pedalec
Rab
A good summing up Rab, thanks.
The drag is there to some extent or other on all geared hub motor e-bikes. Even though there's an overrun freewheel to disconnect the motor from the wheel, the set of three orbital gears are still running on the gear ring in the hub, so there has to be some drag. They do vary though, some much better than others.
The lack of cut-out problems on their Lithium batteries is probably related to the low power that you mentioned. It's the more powerful motors on some high end e-bikes that suffer this the most, the high drain under load into the motor exceeding the continuous rate of discharge that the cells are capable of when the rider doesn't share the work enough.
Good luck with your continuing search.
.
The drag is there to some extent or other on all geared hub motor e-bikes. Even though there's an overrun freewheel to disconnect the motor from the wheel, the set of three orbital gears are still running on the gear ring in the hub, so there has to be some drag. They do vary though, some much better than others.
The lack of cut-out problems on their Lithium batteries is probably related to the low power that you mentioned. It's the more powerful motors on some high end e-bikes that suffer this the most, the high drain under load into the motor exceeding the continuous rate of discharge that the cells are capable of when the rider doesn't share the work enough.
Good luck with your continuing search.
.
Ah well ....... what a difference a DIME makes
I found a new Wrangler on Ebay yesterday and won it unchallenged
Now there's a worry!!
It is basically the same spec as the Avanti I tried but at a third of the price, it has the NiMH batts so I was comfy with that. I am not expecting much, and I'll probably get less than that, but I'll keep you posted how it goes once it is put into service.
I think it is fair to say we would all like the mutts nutts, a wisper 905 or a Gazelle but the cloth had to be cut and at £224 delivered it doesn't seem a big gamble whereas 5 or 6 hundred to be disappointed would have hurt!
till the next instalment
I found a new Wrangler on Ebay yesterday and won it unchallenged
Now there's a worry!!
It is basically the same spec as the Avanti I tried but at a third of the price, it has the NiMH batts so I was comfy with that. I am not expecting much, and I'll probably get less than that, but I'll keep you posted how it goes once it is put into service.
I think it is fair to say we would all like the mutts nutts, a wisper 905 or a Gazelle but the cloth had to be cut and at £224 delivered it doesn't seem a big gamble whereas 5 or 6 hundred to be disappointed would have hurt!
till the next instalment
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