New York Times covers ebikes

[Flying Kiwi]

In fact I have a UK legal bike that would thrash it on hill climbing when it was detuned for the UK, and would also give it's rider when on the US version a few shocks. And with one moderate size battery too. That's Taiwan technology.
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If it was detuned for the same legal maximum power output and top speed under power, I cant see how that claim could stand unless it was lighter (the Optibike has a detachable auxilary battery) or not a full size bike and thats comparing oranges with mandarines. The fact is that power is only one aspect of what makes a good hill climber, efficiency of transferring that power to the road and the flexibility of speed/conditions under which that power can be produced play a big part. I hope the manufacturer can convince the local rags of this bikes unique capabilities and get the same headlines - I won't hold my breath checking the papers though.

 

[flecc]

If it was detuned for the same legal maximum power output and top speed under power, I cant see how that claim could stand unless it was lighter (the Optibike has a detachable auxilary battery) or not a full size bike and thats comparing oranges with mandarines. The fact is that power is only one aspect of what makes a good hill climber,

It's as legal as a legally detuned Optibike, it's full size and it's apparently heavier, so your assumptions are irrelevant. I'm more than capable of knowing that comparisons should be valid without you telling me, and from what you've posted at various times, it seems I know more about what can make a good hill climbing bicycle.

Once again your total obsession with motor drive through gears leaves you blinkered I'm afraid.

Once again you avoid tackling someone else who hasn't agreed with the subject but twice reserve your point by point attacks for me alone, showing very clearly your agenda.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

At first glance the physics of that one don't seem to add up, quick calculations show that something like 90% overall efficiency would be required to do that climb with the standard batteries.

I don't doubt the promoted Pikes Peak 'hill climb' was achieved as they claim for a minute. I'm sure if you wish to question the manufacturer about how they achieved this, they'll be willing to address your questions and provide further details of the exercise.

Only in the USA could that be achieved in freezing temperatures

When your talking over 11,000 feet up at the top with an adiabatic lapse rate (the term for how the temperature decreases with rising altitude) of about 2 degrees C per 1000 feet, I think you'll find there are plenty of places with suitable conditions. I think the very high battery capacity explains how there was still lots of charge left at the end.

I've no doubt that a bottom bracket motor does have it's advantages, but as motor and controller technology advances then that advantage gets less.

I'm surprised with your use of 'but', how is the second part related to the Optibike? I have no knowledge of it's design other than what we can both see on their website and just because patents are involved doesn't mean it's complicated. If you mean as the technology gets more complicated, efficiency often goes down, I agree (generally). Thats why I'd rather developers who are working on making a better hub motor system and are barking up the wrong tree by trying to improve switching/controlling circuitry, put their efforts into an electronically simpler system which lets the mechanical transmission do the torque converting in a more efficient way.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

It's as legal as a legally detuned Optibike, it's full size and it's apparently heavier, so your assumptions are irrelevant. I'm more than capable of knowing that comparisons should be valid without you telling me, and from what you've posted at various times, it seems I know more about what can make a good hill climbing bicycle.

Then please explain how your bike can defy the laws of physics because following on from what I wrote, thats the only way it's going to 'thrash' an Optibike.

Once again your total obsession with motor drive through gears leaves you blinkered I'm afraid.

If you want to reply sensibly I'll do the same but I think this sort of response does no one any good. I simply know what offers superior flexibility and efficiency through my engineering training. I'm prepared to stand by that and seek to achieve improvements towards that direction.

Once again you avoid tackling someone else who hasn't agreed with the subject but twice reserve your point by point attacks for me alone, showing very clearly your agenda.

As far as I can tell (time limits me)I've responded fairly. Re any possibility of me reserving 'attacks' for you, there's no reason, why would I want to do that? When you look at my posts in general you'll see that I'm far better at defending what I believe than in attacking other peoples beliefs - I've no desire to do the latter but plenty for the former.

Getting back onto the subject of electric bikes, I'll await your explanation of how you believe your bike would thrash the Optibike in a hillclimb. As for the thread topic itself, can you not see (as in just from the look of it) any reason why newspapers may be more willing to put something looking like the Optibike in a photo rather than the current lot we have here? It's like black and white to me and that's without even considering the specs! I have no desire for further emotive content here so if you wish to have a go at me, I sugest you pm me.

 

[flecc]

Flying Kiwi, when you respond to virtually any mention of a new bike with promotion of the drive through gears concept, it eventually becomes reasonable to call it an obsession. Ergo, I think my response was "sensible".

As for the Optibike, Ian's final comment was really sufficient answer. I've grown tired of the constant stream of hype, half truths and nonsense about such bikes, none of which ever materialises in fact to date, it having something in common with "wonder battery" advances. Diavelo, Schwinn and Swizzbee being recently mentioned examples. When I see the facts physically, I believe. Until then I assume that the known bike I'm speaking of which can beat anything currently on our market in the respect mentioned can beat a hyped story, an assumption method which has served me accurately for years.

As for the "attacks", you've never tired of often opposing any informed assumption I make as the record clearly shows, while frequently making unwarranted assumptions yourself which I'm courteous enough to give tolerance to.

With regard to the PM route, I've tried that as you know, but it clearly didn't do any good. At that time I also suggested that rather than coming into any thread at every opportunity to promote "drive through gears", you might post this as a subject so that we can all have a proper independent discussion for as long as we like on what is an important subject. Surely you don't fear that? It seems to me to be a very proper, sensible and potentially interesting subject for discussion in an e-bike forum.
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[Ian]

Kiwi, I do not want to get into a fruitless heated argument therefore this will will be my last post on the subject. I simply said, with a few qualifying remarks, that I don't see the Optibike as being anything out of the ordinary.
In the USA anyone can put a big motor and battery on a bike and get results, over here it requires rather more ingenuity to do it within our legaly imposed limits.
The video simply shows a young man pedaling the optibike up a fairly steep hill at 10 mph, theres nothing revolutionary about that, I pedal my Torq up similar hills in Yorkshire at 10 mph, OK so neither me or the bike could keep it up for 90 mins, but if I were the age of the guy in the video, and the bike had an arsenal of batteries on board then I'd stand a chance, and with a 400W motor it would be no problem at all regardless of transmission type. The video mentions 30% and even 55% gradients but we don't get to see the bike on anything that looks steeper than about 25% and most of the time much less, after all 7000 feet in 19 miles is an average of only 7%, not nearly as tough as the impression given.

In summary, I still don't believe the Optbike to be anything special but if you wish to disagree then of course you are entitled to your opinion, but as far as I'm concerned the subject is closed.

Ian.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Flying Kiwi, when you respond to virtually any mention of a new bike with promotion of the drive through gears concept, it eventually becomes reasonable to call it an obsession. Ergo, I think my response was "sensible".

Just as you seek to discredit me mentioning this on any occasion. The fact is I believe the patented motorised bottom bracket was just one tiny factor in why that bike was covered in the paper. Manufacturers supplying the UK may get a similar response from the papers if they utilised similar advances, it's that simple. Oh and I'm not the one seeking to 'attack' any people with words like obsession.

As for the Optibike, Ian's final comment was really sufficient answer. I've grown tired of the constant stream of hype, half truths and nonsense about such bikes, none of which ever materialises in fact to date, it having something in common with "wonder battery" advances. Diavelo, Schwinn and Swizzbee being recently mentioned examples.

I agree there is alot of hype out there regarding many other brands of bikes although I certainly don't include the Swizzbee as one of them (and don't know enough about the others to comment). The fact is that recorded video doesn't lie. Do you think they've made up the claims about it's hill climbing ability? I put it to anyone doubting these claims that they should at least seek 'clarification' from the manufacturer about issues they dont understand before claiming it doesn't add up. Just because a mountain path has a 7% average gradient, doesn't mean it follows that any bike capable of climbing that gradient (even at a sustained speed for a couple of miles) can do the 'varied' 19 mile Pikes Peak route, that's quite a different kettle of fish. Just because an electric bike has a mountain bike style look or even a powerful sounding name, it also doesn't mean it's capable of such tasks either (as much as the manufacturer way want potential buyers to think this). Anyway enough about hype.

When I see the facts physically, I believe.

I'm the same but in the absence of any other electric bike (that I'm aware of) attempting the same hill climbing task with video from along the way, that video will do to convince me of its hill climbing ability.

As for the "attacks", you've never tired of often opposing any informed assumption I make as the record clearly shows, while frequently making unwarranted assumptions yourself which I'm courteous enough to give tolerance to.

There's a very important difference between disagreeing with what I see as propoganda to tone down a designs weakness and attacking someone personally (such as accusing them of obsessive behaviour). I trust that you can see I've merely been standing up for what I see as right and stopping the propoganda/hype in its tracks. Any supplier with a bike capable of fast sustained hill climbing abilities is welcome to attempt to emulate the Optibikes performance and I'll look on that video with interest. I believe there are even some UK brands which are also distributed over there, why haven't they attempted similar radical things? Could it be they know that their products wouldn't have a chance of keeping up due to a design unsuited to very hilly terrain?

With regard to the PM route, I've tried that as you know, but it clearly didn't do any good. At that time I also suggested that rather than coming into any thread at every opportunity to promote "drive through gears", you might post this as a subject so that we can all have a proper independent discussion for as long as we like on what is an important subject. Surely you don't fear that? It seems to me to be a very proper, sensible and potentially interesting subject for discussion in an e-bike forum.
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As I responded in that PM I'll do that when a thread in such a hidden away sub forum is of sufficient interest and catches my attention. In the mean time if I see that part of the reason why the media focussed in on a particular model has something to do with it's advanced technology and styling (after all, the photo is of the Optibike and not any of the other brands also mentioned in the article), it wouldn't be right to try and relocate that thread because it contains mention of (as just one example) a motorised bottom bracket.

 

[flecc]

I too have had enough of this nonsense and am fed up with responding to it. I'll leave you to your beliefs.

The matter is closed for me.