New York Times covers ebikes

[Tim]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/business/yourmoney/06bikes.html?_r=1&ref=business&oref=slogin

This is great news - electric bikes are winning coverage in the US. When will the UK mainstream press pick up on this?

 

[flecc]

When indeed Tim. Thanks for the link, a great and well informed article from a world class newspaper. Would that all our press have these standards.
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[Beeping-Sleauty]

This is great news - electric bikes are winning coverage in the US. When will the UK mainstream press pick up on this?

Just as soon as they wake up to the fact that helping save the Planet is 'Hot & sexy' or 'Heathy and kewl' ...has to be some day soon....

here's hopin'
beeps

 

[Flying Kiwi]

A question of 'headline worthyness'

When will the UK mainstream press pick up on this?

I think that'll happen when we have 'headline worthy' bikes that are sufficienty technologically advanced to grab readers interest as that mega expensive Optibike is. It's the same reason Top Gear has reviews for very expensive supercars - only a tiny percentage of viewers will ever be able to afford one but we still look on curiously to see what those very wealthy people have to endure. At the moment there's a glut of electric bikes here that dont really stretch the envelope. Whats really needed here is something like a derated (UK street legal) version of the Optibike with its motorised bottom bracket. If it was mass produced (perhaps in China), I'm sure this sort of technology could be obtained significantly cheaper. It just takes a company thats willing to take the risk of trying something radically different from top to bottom.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

In my 2years of electric bikes i have never seen a teenager on a electric bike or have shown any intrest WHY? teenagers like fashion electric bikes at the moment are not trendy they want something that looks cool and is cheap a good push bike starts at £150 there is no electric bike for that kind of money maybe one day

 

[Grandad]

Working lunch.

There was a demonstration of an expensive electric scooter on Working Lunch on BBC2 last week. Anyone else see it?
Click Here to see the recording.
It uses Real Player (can be downloded from the above page).

 

[Ian]

The New York Times article was undoubtedly well researched and written and it would be easy to think the the optibike is some kind of super machine that far exceeds the performance of anything available here. However when one delves a little deeper it becomes apparent that some of the more impressive figures are somewhat misleading. For instance the $5500 400 model has a top powered speed of 20 mph and powered only range of up to 20 miles from a 36V 13ah battery, while the $8000 top of the range 600T will do 22 mph and 38 miles on power alone, but that model has two 36V batteries totalling a massive 28Ah of capacity.

There is no mention of hill climbing ability on the website apart from a video of Jeff commuting in the Rockies, but although his destination is at 9600ft his start point is only 500' lower, in fairness the route is not that direct but it's certainly not a 9000ft climb. Jeff did comment in the video that "this bike makes you work" and that's from a regular skier who's probably in pretty good shape.

It seems to me that the Optibike is not that special, and I think that the better machines available here certainly approach that kind of performance, the new Ezee F series bikes in particular, especially with a spare battery strapped on the carrier, and lets face it, you could buy a lot of spare batteries with the change.

Ian.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Teenage buyers

In my 2years of electric bikes i have never seen a teenager on a electric bike or have shown any intrest WHY?

I've seen plenty of the local teenagers show an interest in my electric bike, although I haven't seen any riding them. I think you hit the nail on the head with the price being an issue. For a little more than the cost of an electric bike, riders old enough for a licence can buy a scooter and that would get them more respect among their peers.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Thats why its still going to take a few years yet before the teenagers will buy one they need the price to be right and the LOOK? batterys need to get smaller and more streamlined my son who is 21 has been allowed to ride my torq a few times and off course he likes the speed we all do but he still feels it to heavy and would not buy one yet its just a case of waiting for technology to improve NIGEL

 

[flecc]

Re: Ian's comments

Exactly my previous thoughts on the Optibike, over-assessed by the makers, overpriced to a huge degree and hyped to make it appear worth the money. We see this far too often on the US market, the ex Diavelo Schwinn being another example.

As said we already have bikes that do what these are supposed to do, and many of these US bikes are leisure market jobs which turn out to be not brilliant in hill climbing. China and particularly Taiwan are far more experienced and advanced at the top end of their design and production where their bikes are now immensely capable machines.
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[Ian]

In my 2years of electric bikes i have never seen a teenager on a electric bike or have shown any intrest WHY? teenagers like fashion electric bikes at the moment are not trendy they want something that looks cool and is cheap a good push bike starts at £150 there is no electric bike for that kind of money maybe one day

Likewise Nigel, all the e-bikers I see are at least middle aged. I's my experience that by the time kids reach 14 most have lost interest in any kind of bike and unlike when I was a teenager most do not ride a moped/motorcycle/scooter as soon as they are old enough. I guess saving up for a loud exhaust and styling accessories for their first car is more important to them.

And for the £150 e-bike, as Flecc has pointed out elsewhere the rapidly escalating price of the metals used in battery manufacture pretty well rules that out.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Hillclimbing

There is no mention of hill climbing ability on the website apart from a video of Jeff commuting in the Rockies, but although his destination is at 9600ft his start point is only 500' lower, in fairness the route is not that direct but it's certainly not a 9000ft climb.

You need to watch the last video then - one of a climb up Pikes Peak to over 11,000 feet or over 7000 feet of climb in around 1.5 hours over 19 miles (with plenty of battery charge remaining at the end). I don't know of any other bike that can beat that (including that part where the gradient is 55%). The website also explains about the efficiency of the bottom bracket motor where the power goes through the gears. It's equally efficient going along the flat or up a 30% gradient, I'd like to see a hub motor bike achieve that!

 

[Flying Kiwi]

As said we already have bikes that do what these are supposed to do, and many of these US bikes are leisure market jobs which turn out to be not brilliant in hill climbing.

Watch the final video on their website flecc. It details a climb of over 7000 feet across 19 miles in about 1.5 hrs, with plenty of battery charge left at the top. Thats far better than anything else I've seen in the ebike market. I agree with you about the price however

China and particularly Taiwan are far more experienced and advanced at the top end of their design and production where their bikes are now immensely capable machines.

Chine and Taiwan have always had a reputation of being good at mass producing others designs at very low cost. They're good at running with the ball thats been thrown to them though and thats why I'd like to see them mass produce something that really is hi-tech.

 

[flecc]

my son who is 21 has been allowed to ride my torq a few times and off course he likes the speed we all do but he still feels it to heavy and would not buy one yet its just a case of waiting for technology to improve NIGEL

He's got a a long wait Nigel, and it may have to be his son who sees such a benefit first, if at all. The Torq at 24.4 kilos is the lightest bike in the eZee range, but even in the unlikely event of a breakthrough halving the battery weight, it would still be 22.2 kilos, way over the under 20 kilos you always ask for, and certainly not a light bike. In fact the best motors and batteries are very light now individually, but when a bike has motor and battery etc added, it will always add up to a comparatively heavy bike.

As I've observed in a different context, we are in a western world where personal weight is increasing and those body gains dwarf any possible benefits from lighter bikes. Many of the forum members are hugely heavy compared with typical adult weights 60 to 70 years ago when much of the population cycled or walked to work and car ownership was for the very few. My father used to cycle from Feltham to Charing Cross every mid morning for example, cycling back from around 1 am typically. I remember then that someone weighing about 15 stones was very rare, but now that's a commonplace weight. Body weight gains in some cases today can be more than the total weight of a Torq! These facts make the pursuit of a couple of kilos off a bike unproductive.

As for price, it's not possible to have low weight and low prices. We know what materials are available on our planet, and the only ones lighter than the aluminium we use at present are expensive to produce composites or titanium. Progress doesn't help here usually, since new technologies cost money to create and command premium prices.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

BY flying kiwi
The website also explains about the efficiency of the bottom bracket motor where the power goes through the gears. It's equally efficient going along the flat or up a 30% gradient, I'd like to see a hub motor bike achieve that!
Yes i saw that video it did seem impressive i didnt know that it was a bottom bracket motor though it must be different to the giant twist.

 

[Ian]

7000 feet of climb in around 1.5 hours over 19 miles (with plenty of battery charge remaining at the end).

At first glance the physics of that one don't seem to add up, quick calculations show that something like 90% overall efficiency would be required to do that climb with the standard batteries.

Only in the USA could that be achieved in freezing temperatures

I've no doubt that a bottom bracket motor does have it's advantages, but as motor and controller technology advances then that advantage gets less.

 

[flecc]

Watch the final video on their website flecc. It details a climb of over 7000 feet across 19 miles in about 1.5 hrs, with plenty of battery charge left at the top. Thats far better than anything else I've seen in the ebike market. I agree with you about the price however

Yes, I had seen the video, but just look at the battery capacity we're talking about here. It's a good performance, but not extraordinary. My comment was about the US bikes over the last decade or so rather than specifically at the Optibike with it's gearing.

China and Taiwan have always had a reputation of being good at mass producing others designs at very low cost. They're good at running with the ball thats been thrown to them though and thats why I'd like to see them mass produce something that really is hi-tech.

That's in part a historic assessment, and traditionally that was true, but they have been doing good things for themselves for some while at the top end, particularly in Taiwan. There's much to be said for their choice of the advantages of simplicity as in Hall effect hub motors being used to good effect. It benefits the customer with lower prices and good reliability.

 

[Ian]

Further to my earlier post I've read the credits and discovered that the Optibike in question was indeed equiped with an additional battery pack, I also realised that the statistics for the climb don't add up, 19 miles of an average 17% gradient should be a vertical climb of 3.23 miles or 16000 feet, therfore the average gradient cannot be 17% as stated but more like 8% which is well within the capabilities of most of our bikes.

And regarding the 55% max, well the only hills I know that steep have stairs, I'd probably fall off the back of the saddle on an incline like that.

Seriously though, the bike will obviously see off most of what we have here, but it doesn't do it though high tech means, it does it through sheer brute force which tends to be the american way. If detuned for the UK it probably wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[flecc]

If detuned for the UK it probably wouldn't stand a chance.

In fact I have a UK legal bike that would thrash it on hill climbing when it was detuned for the UK, and would also give it's rider when on the US version a few shocks. And with one moderate size battery too. That's Taiwan technology.
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[Flying Kiwi]

Yes, I had seen the video, but just look at the battery capacity we're talking about here.

Nevertheless not a capacity available with current UK supplied bikes (only the latest Giant Twist comes even close as far as I'm aware and that only has a 24 V 18 Ah total with both batteries).

It's a good performance, but not extraordinary. My comment was about the US bikes over the last decade or so rather than specifically at the Optibike with it's gearing.

I agree that there are many humdrum bikes over there too. I think this one stands out as extraordinary in many ways and until we get similar claims and technology from manufacturers here, I fear our media will adopt a similarly humdrum attitude - I wish it wasn't the case but I'm telling it how I see it.

That's in part a historic assessment, and traditionally that was true, but they have been doing good things for themselves for some while at the top end, particularly in Taiwan.

It's a pity that top end breakthrough technology doesn't appear to have filtered through here then. While I'm not going to say a leopard cant change its spots in this case, I definitely need convincing of your above claim. Developments in hub motor technology, while assisting with cheap and cheerfull designs aren't what I'd call top end. There's a reason why the top of the range electric bikes such as the Optibike, Swizzbee and Swiss Flyer all have motor power going through the gears. As people with engineering training, both you and I understand that reason so I'm suprised how you can mention hub motors when referring to top end technology rather than one based on simplification and compromise. All I've seen over recent years is simplification of many aspects eg the new Twist incorporating a hub motor rather than the original crank style. Certainly the weight of that new Whisper under 20 kg looks impressive for a full size bike, I wouldn't say it's ground breaking though.

There's much to be said for their choice of the advantages of simplicity as in Hall effect hub motors being used to good effect. It benefits the customer with lower prices and good reliability.

We are in agreement with that point The problem for manufacturers who only produce such products is that some buyers wont be satisfied with this level of technology and will want more. Manufacturers who don't meet that need with suitable products are, in my view missing the boat of an additional 'premium product' sales opportunity.