New Test For Immigrants.

[flecc]

A dissatisfaction with immigration is often as much due to the near universal failure to understand the status of territory. No person or government has ownership of any part of the world as a matter of right, since there is no authority who can give such a right.

All creatures including humans are therefore free to roam anywhere on earth and often fight to hold onto as territory the part of the world they find themselves in, and humans are no different. In other words, we hold what we have by force, not by right of ownership, which is why any territory won by war is regarded as the temporary legal possession of the winner. However, since there is no overall authority who can grant possession of any part of the earth, such legality is spurious, a fabrication of mankind. This means that any creature or person who gains entry to any one area is not in fact acting illegally, they are just exercising their rights to freely occupy this world. We can of course use force to remove them, but we have no true authority to do so, we would be just using the law of the jungle.

Even within unsupported human law, the claim of territorial rights by virtue of citizenship is flawed, since territorial conquest often changes the citizenship of all subsequent births. For example, Madame Curie was born in Warsaw, but she was a Russian citizen by birth since the Kingdom of Poland had been a Russian "possession" at the time. Today those born in Poland are Polish, showing that nationality and territory are not permanently tied, nationality being another of mankind's fabrications.

To summarise, mankind has created government to order their affairs, so the authority of any government rests solely with it's citizens. Since those citizens, individually or collectively, have no absolute ownership of any territory, they cannot give ownership of it to their government. Their government can only hold territory by force, not by any universal law, and the existence of all armed forces demonstrates that fact.
.

 

[jazper53]

A dissatisfaction with immigration is often a much due to the near universal failure to understand the status of territory. No person or government has ownership of any part of the world as a matter of right, since there is no authority who can give such a right.

All creatures including humans are therefore free to roam anywhere on earth and often fight to hold onto as territory the part of the world they find themselves in, and humans are no different. In other words, we hold what we have by force, not by right of ownership, which is why any territory won by war is regarded as the temporary legal possession of the winner. However, since there is no overall authority who can grant possession of any part of the earth, such legality is spurious, a fabrication of mankind. This means that any creature or person who gains entry to any one area is not in fact acting illegally, they are just exercising their rights to freely occupy this world. We can of course use force to remove them, but we have no true authority to do so, we would be just using the law of the jungle.

Even within unsupported human law, the claim of territorial rights by virtue of citizenship is flawed, since territorial conquest often changes the citizenship of all subsequent births. For example, Madame Curie was born in Warsaw, but she was a Russian citizen by birth since the Kingdom of Poland had been a Russian "possession" at the time. Today those born in Poland are Polish, showing that nationality and territory are not permanently tied, nationality being another of mankind's fabrications.

To summarise, mankind has created government to order their affairs, so the authority of any government rests solely with it's citizens. Since those citizens, individually or collectively, have no absolute ownership of any territory, they cannot give ownership of it to their government. Their government can only hold territory by force, not by any universal law, and the existence of all armed forces demonstrates that fact.
.

Sounds something like I used to be thinking about in the seventies when i was tripping out on some illegal substance, but in the real world that is a load of hogwash

 

[neptune]

Well, no one can deny that I stimulated a lively debate. For the most part it has been debated with restraint and decorum. Maybe my views originate from tripping out on an illegal substance. Or at least a substance the will soon become illegal if Europe follows the example of Australia and Canada. That substance is of course e juice.

 

[flecc]

Sounds something like I used to be thinking about in the seventies when i was tripping out on some illegal substance, but in the real world that is a load of hogwash

An insulting answer which appears to speak of either a lack of understanding or bigotry.

My post is only hogwash if you can tell me of the authority over the world that can give absolute ownership of any part of it. You can't of course, so all have an intrinsic right by birth to any part of the world they can gain access to by any means, as I've so clearly shown.

And what is the "real" world, is that the one you would like it to be, rather than the one that exists?
.

 

[mr_chompers]

I find that it is more a problem of misplaced anger. Many first world people are finding their quality of life destroyed compared to that of their parents, or even their own of 10+ years ago. The reason for this is the crisis of capitalism. The capitalists have exploited nearly all they can from emerging markets, outsourcing labor, etc, and now if capital is to be accumulated into even fewer hands, the home market must be squeezed as well. Capital will always seek to remove barriers to accumulation, and in modern times that has been regulatory capture, destruction of labor laws, removal of social support systems, etc. This is helped immensely by the dual ability to also control most of the media in the hands of a few, like-minded people, who can both entertain (distraction) and finger-point at immigrants/gays/muslims/rebel-youth/etc to misfocus righteous anger away from the cause, and encourage fighting among themselves. If the working men and women of the world were united in the pursuit of quality of life, we would all be workign 15 hours a week in fields we find personally enriching, with plenty of leisure time, medical care, education, and early retirement. Instead we have a few enjoying literal golden cars, while others cannot afford food, and I am not speaking of wealthy brits vs somalians, but actual food insecure westerners within these same nations.

 

[flecc]

Well, no one can deny that I stimulated a lively debate. For the most part it has been debated with restraint and decorum. Maybe my views originate from tripping out on an illegal substance. Or at least a substance the will soon become illegal if Europe follows the example of Australia and Canada. That substance is of course e juice.

I don't think Britain will outlaw it. From the little I know of the discussion in official circles, regulation is more likely to be in the offing. Of course if that is too restrictive, such as on strengths, the restriction could in effect be a ban if it renders the substance ineffective.

 

[tillson]

I find that it is more a problem of misplaced anger. Many first world people are finding their quality of life destroyed compared to that of their parents, or even their own of 10+ years ago. The reason for this is the crisis of capitalism. The capitalists have exploited nearly all they can from emerging markets, outsourcing labor, etc, and now if capital is to be accumulated into even fewer hands, the home market must be squeezed as well. Capital will always seek to remove barriers to accumulation, and in modern times that has been regulatory capture, destruction of labor laws, removal of social support systems, etc. This is helped immensely by the dual ability to also control most of the media in the hands of a few, like-minded people, who can both entertain (distraction) and finger-point at immigrants/gays/muslims/rebel-youth/etc to misfocus righteous anger away from the cause, and encourage fighting among themselves. If the working men and women of the world were united in the pursuit of quality of life, we would all be workign 15 hours a week in fields we find personally enriching, with plenty of leisure time, medical care, education, and early retirement. Instead we have a few enjoying literal golden cars, while others cannot afford food, and I am not speaking of wealthy brits vs somalians, but actual food insecure westerners within these same nations.

That's a good post. I don't agree with parts of it, but it is a good post. Thanks.

 

[carpetbagger]

A dissatisfaction with immigration is often as much due to the near universal failure to understand the status of territory. No person or government has ownership of any part of the world as a matter of right, since there is no authority who can give such a right.

All creatures including humans are therefore free to roam anywhere on earth and often fight to hold onto as territory the part of the world they find themselves in, and humans are no different. In other words, we hold what we have by force, not by right of ownership, which is why any territory won by war is regarded as the temporary legal possession of the winner. However, since there is no overall authority who can grant possession of any part of the earth, such legality is spurious, a fabrication of mankind. This means that any creature or person who gains entry to any one area is not in fact acting illegally, they are just exercising their rights to freely occupy this world. We can of course use force to remove them, but we have no true authority to do so, we would be just using the law of the jungle.

Even within unsupported human law, the claim of territorial rights by virtue of citizenship is flawed, since territorial conquest often changes the citizenship of all subsequent births. For example, Madame Curie was born in Warsaw, but she was a Russian citizen by birth since the Kingdom of Poland had been a Russian "possession" at the time. Today those born in Poland are Polish, showing that nationality and territory are not permanently tied, nationality being another of mankind's fabrications.

To summarise, mankind has created government to order their affairs, so the authority of any government rests solely with it's citizens. Since those citizens, individually or collectively, have no absolute ownership of any territory, they cannot give ownership of it to their government. Their government can only hold territory by force, not by any universal law, and the existence of all armed forces demonstrates that fact.
.

Totally agree if it was an ideal world,its just that it isn't.
I think the biggest gripe about immigration is the strain on services,housing....and the handouts.
Yes people should be allowed to settle where they like but not funded by people who have worked every hour god sends to feed their families.
If they bring money in and work i have no problem with this.
I have seen extreme poverty and it isn't very nice ie India. How is it a country can afford to send rockets into space and have areas of extreme wealth yet let people live on the streets and search in gutters for food. The same said country has been getting millions of pound in aid from european countrys.We shouldn't be funding their space program. The money is for aid,but they need to get their own house in order first. I know it is the politians of that country but as long as we give those sorts of handouts it will be continually abused as it is in this country.
I know its not just the immigrants who come here and who can blame them anyway,anything for free why not? There are just as many abusers in this country . What we need is to stop the abuse of the system we have by everyone. Then we need to sort out aid for countries who need it by not giving it to other countries but by going there and inprove water systems etc ourselves,that way the money isn't used for space programs,guns,drugs etc.
I am quite happy to see worldwide help and would love to be able to go there and assist.
That is what people are seeing as regards immigration...abuse...and that is the problem.

 

[flecc]

Totally agree if it was an ideal world,its just that it isn't.
I think the biggest gripe about immigration is the strain on services,housing....and the handouts.
Yes people should be allowed to settle where they like but not funded by people who have worked every hour god sends to feed their families.
If they bring money in and work i have no problem with this.
I have seen extreme poverty and it isn't very nice ie India. How is it a country can afford to send rockets into space and have areas of extreme wealth yet let people live on the streets and search in gutters for food. The same said country has been getting millions of pound in aid from european countrys.We shouldn't be funding their space program. The money is for aid,but they need to get their own house in order first. I know it is the politians of that country but as long as we give those sorts of handouts it will be continually abused as it is in this country.
I know its not just the immigrants who come here and who can blame them anyway,anything for free why not? There are just as many abusers in this country . What we need is to stop the abuse of the system we have by everyone. Then we need to sort out aid for countries who need it by not giving it to other countries but by going there and inprove water systems etc ourselves,that way the money isn't used for space programs,guns,drugs etc.
I am quite happy to see worldwide help and would love to be able to go there and assist.
That is what people are seeing as regards immigration...abuse...and that is the problem.

True Mick, though it has to be said that most of the immigrants want to work. The illegals are often not prevented from doing so by shortage of jobs but by our government who do not allow anyone unauthorised to be in the country to work duringh the period before removal, preferring to pay them benefits instead. That would not matter if removal was quick, but these situations are allowed to continue, often for years. Government's immigration policy is simply not coherent, a strange mix of harsh and soft that puzzles the immigrants as much as it puzzles us.

 

[carpetbagger]

Maybe we should allow in immigrants who want to work and have sorted out a job prior to arrival(condition).
Then deport all those people who don't want to work,many uk people included,on a one for one basis.
Problem sorted,everybody happy,now if only the politicians could see that !

 

[flecc]

Maybe we should allow in immigrants who want to work and have sorted out a job prior to arrival(condition).
Then deport all those people who don't want to work,many uk people included,on a one for one basis.
Problem sorted,everybody happy,now if only the politicians could see that !

London has been swapping natives for immigrants for over a decade now at a rate of about 200,000 a year. White native British are now 48% of the population, but I'm happy with this. Those more recent imigrants are usually working for their living. In London, the most likely apparent "immigrants" to be workshy are those who are actually children of immigrants who arrived here decades ago.

 

[Storcker]

I cannot abide the arrogant attitude which allows people to believe they have a divine right to a country simply because they have had the fortune of being born in a country which is both well developed and wealthy.

I could not disagree with you on this more strongly.

I believe those who do live in a country have a "divine right" to decide who may come and live in it.
That of course includes earlier immigrants of whatever race, religion or origin.
According to your theory it would be OK if China or India shipped a few hundred million people here.
Nazi Germany wanted more living room and took it for themselves, should those who resisted just have welcomed them. As a Brit just try turning up in most of the worlds countries and say you claim asylum, you will be on the next flight home. Most countries only accept immigrants with money to invest, money to retire on or with a skill that is in short supply unlike the UK.