New Super Light Tongxin Motor Design/Kit

[dingrpdl]

I have a 3 pin cable available dingrpdl, check out the the link to see if it is what you require:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/classifieds/10407-replacement-motor-cables.html#post124530

Yes! The 3-pin cable is exactly what I need. Would you happen to have two of these you are willing to sell?

Richard

 

[Ken Taylor]

Keyde motors arrive!

The second motor is a 100mm diameter, 135mm width rear hub motor with an integrated controller -- the same motor that Tom got about two months ago.

I want to try one of these. Where did you order it from? I see they are selling on ebay E Bike KIT Motor With Controller Inside 6 2AH LI ION Battery LED Display | eBay but there are only 3 sales there. I read these come with motor performance curves. Could you post the image here? I see you got the 260 rpm motor where fa001313 got a 235 rpm motor http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/11035-new-super-light-tongxin-motor-design-kit-25.html#post180610 .

One branch goes to the battery and the other to the handlebar-mounted assist-level selector unit which is in turn connected to a bike computer.

fa001313 at http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/11035-new-super-light-tongxin-motor-design-kit-25.html#post180741 says there is 6 levels of assist but the ebay description E Bike KIT Motor With Controller Inside 6 2AH LI ION Battery LED Display | eBay says "It can steplessly regulate the boosting rate frm 0 to 100% at will." Do you think that is possible? This sounds like a throttle. If the level of assist is regulated by a voltage from the selector unit this signal could be generated from a throttle or device like the cycle analyst v3. Do you know the form of the signal from the selector to the motor?

The speed sensor is built into the motor and so a separate pedelec disc is not necessary. This way, the controller senses the wheel speed rather than the crank cadence on the traditional bottom-bracket mounted sensor.

This has me confused. The motor is claimed to conform to the EN15194 standard which requires the rider to be pedalling for assist. The only two ways I know to detect a rider pedalling is a pedelc or torque sensor and this motor has neither. Do you know how it can tell if you are not pedalling?

This motor weighs 1.84Kg.

Nice with a controller and all.

 

[jerrysimon]

Check this site.

www.keyde.com.

Jerry

 

[dingrpdl]

I want to try one of these. Where did you order it from?

I got the motor directly from Keyde using the sales contact email on their website.

I read these come with motor performance curves. Could you post the image here? I see you got the 260 rpm motor where fa001313 got a 235 rpm motor.

I got the highest rpm available because I am running 349-sized (i.e. 16.5-inch diameter) wheels. The nominal 260rpm spec equates to about 13mph (21Kph) with these wheels. If there were a higher rpm option than 260, I would have chosen it.

Here is the motor test report I got with the motor:

fa001313 at http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/11035-new-super-light-tongxin-motor-design-kit-25.html#post180741 says there is 6 levels of assist but the ebay description E Bike KIT Motor With Controller Inside 6 2AH LI ION Battery LED Display | eBay says "It can steplessly regulate the boosting rate frm 0 to 100% at will." Do you think that is possible? This sounds like a throttle. If the level of assist is regulated by a voltage from the selector unit this signal could be generated from a throttle or device like the cycle analyst v3. Do you know the form of the signal from the selector to the motor?

The assist-level selector unit I have is the same as Tom's - with 5 levels of assist plus zero. I think it is possible to order a slider unit that gives infinitely variable assist control. As you suggest, the output is probably a voltage and it MIGHT be possible to use a throttle unit if scaled to the appropriate voltage limits the controller expects to see. I did think of the possibility of even using a Thun torque sensor through a CAv3 and then using the conditioned throttle output from the CAv3 to drive the assist-level of the motor controller. I did actually order a CAv3 and a Thun sensor for that purpose but do not foresee getting around to experimenting with that for quite a while.

This has me confused. The motor is claimed to conform to the EN15194 standard which requires the rider to be pedalling for assist. The only two ways I know to detect a rider pedalling is a pedelc or torque sensor and this motor has neither. Do you know how it can tell if you are not pedalling?

Sorry. What I meant to say was "The speed sensor is built into the motor and so a separate pedelec disc is not necessary. This way, the controller senses the sprocket speed rather than the crank cadence on the traditional bottom-bracket mounted sensor." Because the controller electronics are built right into the rear hub motor, it has a sensor within the hub itself which detects the rotation of the sprocket freewheel assembly with respect to the stationary motor spindle. If the rider is pedalling, the sprockets are rotating. If the rider stops pedalling, the sprockets stops rotating.

Richard

 

[jerrysimon]

Using the stock controller with a 349, 16" rim I find it assists up to 17mph. However as I wanted throttle and am using a lyen/ecrazyman controller, this only take me up to about 14mph assisted.

Jerry

 

[dingrpdl]

As I reported a week or so ago, Keyde sent me a 32-hole rear hub motor instead of the 28-hole one I ordered.

To their credit, they reponded fairly quickly to rectify the problem. But instead of shipping me the correct motor, Sky sent me a 28-hole motor casing and a tool to open the motor casing.

I initially try to open the motor using the tool and gripping the casing with a jar-opener rubber strap. But that was a no-go as the strap could not get a good enough grip on the casing. So I laced the motor to a rim with three spokes. I was then able to unscrew the motor casing end cover. The casing end cover is reverse-threaded so that operating loads will cause the casing cover to screw in tighter.



The casing itself has a five-magnet setup for the pedal sensor system. These magnets are attached to and rotate with the cassette spline assembly when the rider is pedalling. There is also a single, round magnet that is attached to the motor casing which is used as the wheel speed sensor.



The built-in controller board appears to have 12 MOSFETs soldered on. But they are not attached to any heat sink like the MOSFETs on an external controller would be. I wonder if heat dissipation under sustained load is going to be a problem. Only time will tell.




Richard

 

[jerrysimon]

Interesting to see one open. Thanks for posting the pics.

Given the small amount of current these things draw I doubt over heating will be a problem.

Jerry

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Both Andrew an myself tried that Annad bike with the hidden battery and Keyde motor, and we both thought that it had reasonable torque, although we only tried it in the hall. Maybe it felt more powerful because it was so light.

 

[jerrysimon]

I have now tested these motors (the narrow ones without the built in controller) for a few months on both my lightweight Brompton and my Dahon Uno. Both bikes are below 11.5kg carry weight with of course all the electrics and batteries in their respective front mounted bags.

Initially I used them with the stock external controller i.e. pedelec only. This controller is more optimised for the motor and gives the best power range and speed. However I prefer throttle so am now using them with an ecrazyman/lyen programmable controller. It requires a little fiddling with the programmable settings to find the sweet spot where the clutch won't slip. I tend to limit current to about 7amps though as we know these controller settings are not an exact science, so that equates to about 9 amps max measured in real world use.

This motor is no power/torque monster but is a wonderful lightweight addition for assistance. The other BIG benefit is its power consumption. On my stock Tongxin motor I use about 1.3Ah on my 5 mile pretty flat one way commute to work with fairly liberal use of throttle. However on the lightweight Goldant this drops down to around 0.850Ah. Given my current DIY batteries are 3.0Ah (1kg in weight) this means I can commute to and from work without charging

I keep meaning to do a write up of the Dahon Uno with the Goldant fitted but have not got round it. Here it is before the motor was fitted. Its around 10kg carry weight in this configuration so 11.5kg with motor fitted. Its the nearest match to my Brompton M2LX I have found. For me any folder must be able to carry luggage on the front, mounted on the frame i.e. not weighted on the steering. Not quite as small to carry at the Brompton Ti but faster and way way cheaper!

Regards

Jerry

 

[Arbol]

Initially I used them with the stock external controller i.e. pedelec only. This controller is more optimised for the motor and gives the best power range and speed. However I prefer throttle so am now using them with an ecrazyman/lyen programmable controller. It requires a little fiddling with the programmable settings to find the sweet spot where the clutch won't slip. I tend to limit current to about 7amps though as we know these controller settings are not an exact science, so that equates to about 9 amps max measured in real world use.

This motor is no power/torque monster but is a wonderful lightweight addition for assistance. The other BIG benefit is its power consumption. On my stock Tongxin motor I use about 1.3Ah on my 5 mile pretty flat one way commute to work with fairly liberal use of throttle. However on the lightweight Goldant this drops down to around 0.850Ah. Given my current DIY batteries are 3.0Ah (1kg in weight) this means I can commute to and from work without charging

Interesting analysis.

From what I understand, the 80mm motor (the one fitting Bromptons on the front) has no internal controller, right?

May I ask if your 3Ah battery is a 36V or a 24V one?

I find small batteries quite attractive. The fact you suggest (having shortish trips of a few miles with a small LiFePO4 battery) is quite interesting, in fact I have opened a thread on this subject:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/15605-small-lifepo4-batteries.html

 

[jerrysimon]

Arbol,

Yes only the 100mm + Keyde Goldant motors have the controllers built in. The 80mm ones use the external controller shown in this thread which unfortunately is pedelec only. Good thing is the newer ones now have the cable exiting the other side below the axle so it does not interfere with the frame clip

I am ordering some more so if you are interested pm me.

My original batteries are 36V. Two of these connected in series.

Free Shipping 6s 2300mAh A123 Battery Pack - Craft_6S A123 RC 19.8V_A123 RC Battery_A123 Batteries_Batteries_A123 RC Battery|High Quality Battery|Wholesale Ebike Battery

However these are only good for about 8-10 miles depending on terrain and if you drain them flat on every ride they won't last longer than a year. If leave some juice in them i.e. about1/4 full they will last 3 years + with daily use. No BMS but again worth balancing them with an RC balance charger every 3 months or so. Bulk charge between that which is nice and simple. These are incredibly safe cells.

I also have some excellent Konion based packs but you can't get those cells easily anymore

However I think it is worth looking at these now if you want a little more capacity 4Ah for the same weight. I have yet to test them but suspect they will make a good alternative.

HID Battery Samsung 20A 18650 20R INR18650 20R 2000mAh 3 6V Li ion Rechargeable | eBay

Posting cells airfreight now have more restrictions though and the seller will only use the higher price postage method with the new UK restrictions in place. The seller will weld them up into 6s2p packs for you which you can then connect in series. As I said I have yet to test them but suspect they will make a good small 4Ah pack. May need to be balanced a little more often. More details on Endless-sphere.

Regards

Jerry

 

[Arbol]

The keyde package seems quite interesting. Two questions:

1. I have read there is no throttle, only PAS. Is there some kind of "6 km/h" option, such that the motor works before pedalling? I ask this because it might be a pain to be stopped in front of a traffic light on an uphill, and to need to pedal strongly before the motor starts to help
2. What about the supplied batteries? They seem quite light, given their 6Ah and 9Ah capacity

 

[bmc]

Having now received my Keyde rear motor kit, I thought I'd revive this thread as two of the posters Tom from Belgium (fa001313) and Richard from Hong Kong (dingrpdc) have had the same kit for sometime now, and I would love to get some feedback re their experiences so far.

My first problem was fitting the lockring to my cassette. The motor cable exits the axle sideways and prevents the normal tool fitting, Took it to my LBS and they tried 4/5 different ones, but none fitted. Ended up tightening it with pair of circlip pliers !! Would prefer the proper tool if anyone know of one.

Finished installing the kit and mounted the bike on my turbo trainer to test before taking on the road. Started pedalling and the led lights up showing level 3 and 5 bars of battery power.

Could feel and hear the motor running as I changed up and down the levels for a few minutes, and then everything went dead.
No lights on led, nothing from motor, doubled checked all the connections. I’m still getting speed signal on computer from motor but nothing else.

I'm hoping it's just a faulty led, and have emailed Sky requesting a replacement.

Bill

 

[dingrpdl]

My first problem was fitting the lockring to my cassette. The motor cable exits the axle sideways and prevents the normal tool fitting, Took it to my LBS and they tried 4/5 different ones, but none fitted. Ended up tightening it with pair of circlip pliers !! Would prefer the proper tool if anyone know of one.

Yes, that was a problem for me too. The hole on my Park Tool cassette locking tool was too small to allow the motor shaft and cable to go through. A bike store suggested drilling out the hole on the lockring tool but I didn't have the ability to do this. I ended up using needle-nose pliers to tighten and remove the locking! So far, it hasn't worked itself loose.

Could feel and hear the motor running as I changed up and down the levels for a few minutes, and then everything went dead.
No lights on led, nothing from motor, doubled checked all the connections. I’m still getting speed signal on computer from motor but nothing else.

I'm hoping it's just a faulty led, and have emailed Sky requesting a replacement.

Does it make the three-tone startup chime when you connect the battery? If not, then it is likely that your controller in the hub is dead. It should make the chime regardless of whether the handlebar LED module is connected or not.

Incidentally, my motor died too a few months ago. It may have happened because I accidentally shorted something when I was experimenting with connecting the motor to a microcontroller. Keyde was nice enough to replace the motor as I happened to be buying another motor (a front hub model) at the same time. The new motor has been working fine since. I have now ditched the handlebar-mounted assist-level LED unit and wired a throttle to it.


Richard

 

[bmc]

Does it make the three-tone startup chime when you connect the battery? If not, then it is likely that your controller in the hub is dead. It should make the chime regardless of whether the handlebar LED module is connected or not.

Hi Richard......great to hear from you. This is my first venture into electric bikes, so very helpful to hear from someone with experience of the same kit.

Does the chime apply to both front and rear hubs, as I don't recall hearing anything the first time I plugged in and it worked for a few minutes. It certainly doesn't make any noise now, so not sounding good. (no pun intended)

I have now ditched the handlebar-mounted assist-level LED unit and wired a throttle to it.

Am I right in thinking that you still need to pedal for the throttle to work ?

Bill.

 

[dingrpdl]

Does the chime apply to both front and rear hubs, as I don't recall hearing anything the first time I plugged in and it worked for a few minutes. It certainly doesn't make any noise now, so not sounding good. (no pun intended)

Am I right in thinking that you still need to pedal for the throttle to work ?

I think the chime applies to all motors with the integrated in-hub controller. Not 100% sure, though.

Yes, even with the throttle mod, I still have to pedal for the motor to run. That logic is built-into the hub controller.

Richard

 

[bmc]

I think the chime applies to all motors with the integrated in-hub controller. Not 100% sure, though.

Yes, even with the throttle mod, I still have to pedal for the motor to run. That logic is built-into the hub controller.

Richard

I put the question to Sky re the motor chime.......this is her reply:-

Dear Bill,
"That judge method is only useful for the square wave controller, now the motor you have is with sine wave controller. I will arrange to send you a new display first. Cause the motor can run, the rate of broken controller is very small."

What advantage does the throttle have over the LED, or maybe I should say......why do you prefer it ? Remember.....I've never ridden an Ebike before

Bill

 

[dingrpdl]

I put the question to Sky re the motor chime.......this is her reply:-

...

To be clear that we are talking about the same motor, this is the one I have:

http://www.keyde.com/?do=product&lang=en&event=view&ids=13

Here is a picture of the bits that go with the motor...



I bought the motor almost a year ago and it's possible they have changed the electronics since then. There was no mention in the advertising literature about the controller being a sine wave controller when I bought mine.

Richard

 

[bmc]

To be clear that we are talking about the same motor, this is the one I have:

http://www.keyde.com/?do=product&lang=en&event=view&ids=13

Here is a picture of the bits that go with the motor...

View attachment 8363

I bought the motor almost a year ago and it's possible they have changed the electronics since then. There was no mention in the advertising literature about the controller being a sine wave controller when I bought mine.

Richard

Yea........same kit .......only difference is my led has two brake cut-out cables
included which I haven't figured out how to use yet...going to wait and see if I need them.

Bill

 

[dingrpdl]

Yea........same kit .......only difference is my led has two brake cut-out cables
included which I haven't figured out how to use yet...going to wait and see if I need them.

I think they probably upgraded the electronics and now have put a sine-wave controller in the hub. My guess is that the brake cutout circuit basically sets the assist level to zero so that the motor stops instantly.

In answer to your question about throttle vs the original Assist-level LED selector unit, I prefer the throttle for the following reasons:

The LED assist-level selector that was ordered with my motor had a zero to 5 selection range for assist. When powering up, it defaulted to level 3. If I left the bike idle for some amount of time, the controller goes into a 'sleep' mode and cuts power to the assist-level selector unit. It powered up again when I started pedaling. The problem was that when it 'woke' from sleep, it would go back to the default level 3. And that would give a big surge in power upon pedaling. And it was not possible to set the level to zero because the unit was not powered until the pedaling began. I had a few near-accident incidents because I was not mindful of the fact that the assist level had defaulted to level 3 after I had left the bike parked for a bit. On top of that, my older electronics did not have any brake cutout circuitry. So the motor only stops about half a second after it detects that pedaling had stopped.

I did a small wiring mod and connected a throttle in lieu of the assist-level selector. I prefer this setup over the original. Also, when releasing the throttle (equivalent to setting the assist level to zero), the motor stops instantly. This partially makes up for the lack of a brake cutout circuit.