New Project: Orbit Orion Hybrid/Shimano Alfine 11-Speed Hub Gear/EBC 500W FWD Kit

[Warwick]

Trex was right when s/he said I would soon be looking for a new project after completing my Ridgeback 250W conversion!

I've had the Orbit for quite a while now and it fits like a glove. It's had a SRAM Spectro S7 hub gear, but last year I converted it to a 27-speed derailleur system. Knee trouble has prevented me from making best use of the combination, so I've bitten the bullet and bought the Alfine hub and an EBC 500W FWD kit. Both are on the way for an Easter build. I am excited at the prospect of a good bike being allied with a wide ratio rear hub gear and a powerful front hub motor.

The Orbit was already modded to have an Avid BB7 front disc brake and a stem/bar combination to suit my riding style.

Watch this space.

 

[Warwick]

Suppliers, eh?!

EBC offers a 24-hour courier service. That means I should have had delivery today. I phoned to check and it seems that won't happen. They're expecting a delivery of batteries. Now, things happen and plans go awry, but the sign of a very good company is one that lets you know when this happens. EBC didn't and I am surprised. It's a good job I called, as they were going to send the kit out today for delivery tomorrow, when I'm not at home. Hopefully they will have listened to me and send it out tomorrow for delivery on Thursday when I am home.

I have the Alfine wheel already and ordered a shifter for it last Friday. I was hoping it would be here soon. Another call to Tredz and it seems they have had to order it in and it won't be here until next Tuesday. Again, no communication of this, which is disappointing. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be advised of these things or at least to be told the item isn't in stock when ordering. Had I known, I'd've paid a fiver extra and ordered it elsewhere.

Anyway, what that means to the build is that I will still be able to install the EBC kit over the Easter weekend. I'll also be able to ride the bike, as it has a very decent 27-speed SRAM gear set up. Who knows, I may even stick with this and put the Alfine hub into my MTB wheel.

 

[Warwick]

Next update: The kit arrived as promised yesterday. However, it contained the standard PAS, not the Kunteng one, as requested. There was also no speed sensor. Disappointing. Also, it seems as if the battery arrived fully charged. Either that or it's faulty. The green light stayed on when I plugged in the charger. I'd've expected it to take a small charge. I've written to EBC for their comments. Their follow up was excellent last time, so I'm hoping it's the same this time.

One other thing, I fitted the disc brake rotor and it fits the frame nicely. However, there is no space between the rotor and the motor to fit my Avid BB5 or BB7 calipers, so it's going to have to be V-brakes. That's a pain, as my forks are disc-only. No Easter outings for me on this machine.

Oh, yet another thing. Wow, that front wheel is heavy!

 

[Alan Quay]

One other thing, I fitted the disc brake rotor and it fits the frame nicely. However, there is no space between the rotor and the motor to fit my Avid BB5 or BB7 calipers, so it's going to have to be V-brakes. That's a pain, as my forks are disc-only. No Easter outings for me on this machine.

Put a bigger rotor on it, then add some spacers and longer bolts to move the caliper further out.

 

[Warwick]

Not an option, I'm afraid. The fork will only allow a 160mm rotor maximum. Besides which, I'd need to gain the best part of a centimetre. There really isn't enough room to play with.

I've ordered some forks and I have some Deore brakes to fit along with some larger pads. Those should do the trick, but the BB7 is a fantastic brake and I'll miss it's stopping power. If I fit the Alfine rear wheel, that is disc-only, which will help, but it's the front brake that does most of the stopping.

 

[Warwick]

Well, that was fun! If a job could be made as complicated as possible, this was it! The main issues were the forks and brakes, but the EBC kit documentation didn't help.

Some early pointers, seeing as it isn't quite roadworthy yet:

1) EBC have a generic set of instructions for their kits, not individual ones for the different kits. Mostly they overlap, but not always.
2) EBC are slow (or don't bother!) at answering their 'contact us' queries.
3) The wiring is far too long for the frame bag option they offer by at least 30cm.

It's all fitted, but I have problems with the headset, and there is a wobble coming from somewhere. That somewhere may be a wonky front wheel, but I won't know until I've taken it out.

I've set it up with Schwalbe Durano Plus tyres, but will probably change them. My very short ride told me the ride was much too zingy. I need summat with more air in them.

That's it for now. Hopefully the headset problem will be ironed out and I can give it a proper test ride to feed back more.

 

[trex]

do you have torque arms for that heavy front motor?

 

[Annie12]

I have fitted a few EBC kits, they have an integral speed sensor now so that will be why you didnt get one !!!
How can you complain about the wiring being 30cm to long for your bike, the kit is a compromise to fit most bikes of varying sizes, think about the guys with bigger frames than you, there is plenty of room in the controller bag for the excess.
I have found EBC to be good at after sales - pick up the phone, I have called them in the evening and still got hold of someone to give advice.

 

[Warwick]

Right, let's take your rather aggressive points one by one:

1) I have another 250W EBC kit and that does have an external sensor. Sensors are mentioned in the rather basic manual & nowhere does it state that the 500W kit will not have a sensor, rather a built-in one. Please check your facts before being so assertively incorrect.
2) My bike has a large frame. I was being generous with 30cm. I would probably be more correct with 45cm. I suspect the wiring would fit my tandem and still have cable to spare. (I doubt whether tandem owners make up much of EBC's custom.) My 250W kit used a rack battery and the excess cable was an issue with that build too.
3) On the contrary, my frame bag struggled to accommodate the wiring excess and now bulges enough that my knees catch it.
4) I too have called EBC and found them fine. However, (not that I need to explain myself to you...) I needed some information and it was over the bank holiday period, so I thought that asking via the contact system would be fine, as it had been when I previously used it. On these two occasions the answer was not forthcoming and I had to pick up the phone.
(Quite by coincidence (?) I received a reply today.)

Finally, did you really need to be so aggressive in your post?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Right, let's take your rather aggressive points one by one:

1) I have another 250W EBC kit and that does have an external sensor. Sensors are mentioned in the rather basic manual & nowhere does it state that the 500W kit will not have a sensor, rather a built-in one. Please check your facts before being so assertively incorrect.

Whether you get/need an external sensor depends on the controller and the motor. Some can pick it up automatically from the motor, Therefore, some kits need it, but not others. You should install everything first to see if it works before judging the kit. Obviously, it's much better if it doesn't need one, which is probably the case.

 

[Warwick]

'The kit' includes everything in the box, including the instructions. The instructions did not tell me that a sensor was not needed; quite the reverse in fact. EBC should supply instructions that cover each kit individually, not a generic one(doesn't)-fits-all book, as they did with this kit.

I don't want to sound too harsh on EBC, as the kits I have are good value and seem well made. I simply think they are cutting corners on their documentation.

 

[footpump]

I too found the wiring rather long ,purchased a larger triangle bag, (rear wheel 250 w kit downtube battery)
I also found the only way I could mount the lcd speed senser was to araldite it inside the top of front fork, as the magnet is quite long.

used a smaller one of another cycle computer.

first experience of fitting a kit though

 

[Warwick]

Right, an overdue update:

I finally had a heavy duty headset fitted to the bike today, along with a longer BB axle. There may be enough room for one of the sensors I have now, we'll see.

I picked it up from the LBS and put the front wheel on and checked the brakes. I slotted the battery home, then went for a short test ride. Well, that was the intention, but it ended up being 11 miles round the Warwickshire lanes.

It flies along very nicely. It's a nice evening, so there were plenty of club riders out and I sailed past them at 20-25MPH. The slender Schwalbe Durano Plus tyres aided there. The hub is much quieter than the 250W one I have from the same supplier. All in all, a qualified success.

There are some things I need to consider.

1. Is the bike too fast for the braking capabilities?
2. Do I want to run it on such thin rubber? It's a heavy beast and I'm not sure the tyres are suited to the ride.
3. Do I need to adjust the riding position? Yes! That is nothing to do with the kit, thobut.
4. The front wheel doesn't run true and needs work. It's out quite a bit and that makes braking uneven. I'm surprised it was sent out like that, TBH.

So, once the above concerns are addressed by fitting thicker tyres (that I already have) and a higher stem (ditto), and having the wheel trued, I think it will be a machine much better suited to my needs.

There is still the Alfine hub option to mull over, and the sensor to be fitted (I was using the throttle) and I'll see how things progress once the tweaks have been done.

 

[Warwick]

One more update, just in case anyone's interested:

I fitted new rear v brakes, new brake cable and raised the bars by fitting a stem raiser. I took it out for a 7-mile spin to check it out and all seems well, but...

1. The drive wheel is not out of true. It has a small dent in the rim! Now, I know I didn't cause this, so it was either done in transit to me, or to EBC. It does cause the front brake to catch every spin, although not enough to markedly slow me down.
2. On the point of speed, the gearing is now too low. It's geared for MTB use, and I spin out in top gear on the largest front chainring. Having said that, we are talking 27MPH here.
3. The raised bars are great. I have the option of taking it an inch higher, and I probably will. I left the cables long enough to allow this.
4. I fitted the Kunteng all-in-one PAS onto the longer BB axle. It just fits. It needs to be calibrated via the controller and I'll do this by calling EBC tomorrow (Bank Holiday today & everyone deserves a rest day!).
5. The PAS is needed. I felt a bit uncomfortable having to keep the throttle depressed at such speeds when I needed to have my hand nearer the brake lever.
6. I will probably go for the Alfine option once I've had a rim brake rim fitted to it. That will probably sort out the gearing issue above.

I'm tempted to take it on my commute tomorrow, although it is too fast for cyclepaths. I'll just have to throttle back. On the way home the PAS should be set up and I can choose a lower assist setting to suit.

One other point, the 500W kit does really use up the battery rapidly. I'm not sure it'll make the 16-mile round trip. There's only one way to find out, I suppose...

 

[Warwick]

Blimey, another enforced update.

Due to the battery rack failing on my other ebike, and my overall dissatisfaction with the 500W front wheel, I have taken the 250W wheel from the other bike and fitted it to the Orbit.

'A 30-minute job', I naiively thought... I hadn't reckoned on my own foolishness! There was some enforced soldering and a lot of cursing, but I got there, eventually. 2-3 hours later, actually.

I had to fit the front wheel speed sensor and the display needed re-programming, but I was able to reuse the wiring from the 500W kit. That saved a lot of time.

I had a very brief test ride and all seemed well. A longer ride awaits tonight.

Thanks go to the very patient Ray at EBC who took three calls from me today and talked me through the display reprogramming very concisely.

 

[trex]

why did you not like the 500W?
I always thought 500W at the front is a bit heavy and ugly looking. 250W gives a much nicer weight distribution. If I need more power, I use a higher amp controller.

 

[Warwick]

Well, for a start, the 500W wheel was damaged somewhere along the line. I can't say 100% that I didn't do the damage (although I'm pretty sure it wasn't me), so can't send it back to EBC. Secondly, it was a very heavy, ugly lump in the front wheel, and, as you say, weight distribution is better with the smaller 250W wheel. Thirdly, my experience on the other bike was that I could go faster on it with a wider spread of gear ratios. The Orbit offers a much wider spread, although I will probably change the rear cassette for something more road-biased rather than MTB-biased. Fourth, the Orbit is a much better bike than the Ridgeback that is also rather too small for me.

I'm hoping that Orbit/250W combination is enough to get me to work and back quickly enough, but safely enough (for me and peds) on the cycleways I use.

 

[Warwick]

Well, a 17-mile round trip last night went excellently. It's slightly faster than the Ridgeback on assist lever 3 or 4, with 5 saved for hills. The smoothness of the ride confirmed that the Ridgeback was a bit of a clunker. It looks like I have finally got the combination I was looking for.

 

[Warwick]

How can you complain about the wiring being 30cm to long for your bike, the kit is a compromise to fit most bikes of varying sizes, think about the guys with bigger frames than you, there is plenty of room in the controller bag for the excess.

Well, here is the wiring from my build (at least I hope it's visible!). the cable ties need tidying up, I'll admit, but I think it shows the excess cable I'm left with. In fact, there's quite a bit more in the bag. That's because the 250W controller is significantly smaller than the 500W one. If I still had the 500W controller in the bag, the wiring loop outside would be longer still.

I hope this is taken as constructive criticism, as EBC have been very helpful along the way, but the cabling is just too long. This is quite a large frame too, so I am not exaggerating.

 

[Warwick]

This is the (almost) finished article. The cabling needs tidying up, but it's 99% done. I am happy with the combination and have done about 100 miles on it on my commute. In fact, I've taken the longer, off-road way home a couple of times via Kenilworth castle and some very agricultural bridleways. There is a little bit of Warwickshire left on the bike!

As I mentioned above, EBC have been very helpful and I recommend them and their kits. There are several caveats though:

1. The documentation is too generic and should be specific to each kit
2. The cabling is, IMO, too long. Why not offer different lengths - at least two options?
   
3. The battery life so far is disappointing. The 15AH, two-year-old battery from my Woosh Sirocco held a much better charge than the 13AH one EBC supply. The much heavier Woosh would whisk me along at 17MPH at level 5 assist and still have 2 bars left on the display. The EBC battery does the same 17MPH on assist level 3, but I am down to just one bar by the time I get home (and this is a much lighter, more efficient bike than the Woosh). By being kind to the Woosh battery, I got 35 miles out of it with some juice left. I think 20 miles would be all I could expect out of this one at this stage. I'm hoping it will improve with use. If I were to use level 5 assist, I don't think I'd make the 16.5-mile round trip to work and back.