New figures reveal 11 deaths from e-bike fires in UK last year, as MPs call for tighter regulations

lenny

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"Safe Shield is different from other batteries in that each cell within the battery is surrounded by a heat-absorbing resin. Batteries made this way are called “potted,” and this is a product design that is already in use in EVs, where the risks posed by a fire are far greater. "

"The new battery packs are UL Certified to UL 2271"
 

lenny

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Pingk

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I feel like we're so afraid of having deep conversations and tackling hard problems - Why are people buying cheaply made battery packs? Is the cost of quality batteries too high for most people? If so, how can we address the cost of living crisis where people don't feel like they need to risk their safety in order to afford personal transport? If not, do the people buying them not understand how to differentiate safe from dangerous products or are using them beyond their limits - how can we combat this? Or maybe we actually do need tighter manufacturing tolerances to ensure these batteries are designed and built safely?

More legislation isn't always the answer unless we also fully understand the downsides, like delaying our transition away from using cars for small trips where an ebike would be just as convenient and more environmentally friendly? This also has a cost, but it's harder for us humans to value lives lost in the future from climate change compared to lives lost now.

Rather than the dumb reactionary thing of introducing legislation, we should spend time trying to figure out the core of the problem and fixing that.
 
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Az.

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I feel like we're so afraid of having deep conversations and tackling hard problems
Who is afraid of what? We keep talking about battery problems for years.

we should spend time trying to figure out the core of the problem and fixing that.
Do you have suggestions how to fix problem?
 
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Woosh

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e-bike batteries are a lot safer now than 10+ years ago. They are built with cylindrical cells rather than pouch cells. Cylindrical cells have anti-explosion caps, so they don't generally explode unless you have a very big capacity like 1000+WH where the heat generated is so overwhelming that the plastic case yields to the flames.
The thing I would like to talk about is cells are graded in A, B and ungraded.
A grade is best. Don't buy anything else, it's not worth the risk.
The issue is ungraded cells are re-wrapped with the buyers' own brand, usually Chinese.
They find their way to the cheap end of the market.
 
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Az.

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The thing I would like to talk about is cells are graded in A, B and ungraded.
A grade is best. Don't buy anything else, it's not worth the risk.
The issue is ungraded cells are re-wrapped with the buyers' own brand, usually Chinese.
By all means please talk then.
What are the differences between grades?

How customer can determine what cell grade have been used?
 

Woosh

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What are the differences between grades?
Grade A cells are guaranteed to meet or exceed manufacturers discharge capacity (100% ) and performance, with no visual imperfections. Grade B cells have 90%-95% capacity.
Ungraded cells have typically 90% or less discharge capacity. The main issue is hidden defects. There is no simple way to find out why those cells have less capacity so you don't know the dangers lurking inside the can. It can be uneven lamination or defective welding or micro shorts.
How customer can determine what cell grade have been used?
You have to rely on the honesty of people along the manufacturing chain.
 

Az.

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Grade A cells are guaranteed to meet or exceed manufacturers discharge capacity (100% ) and performance, with no visual imperfections. Grade B cells have 90%-95% capacity.
Ungraded cells have typically 90% or less discharge capacity. The main issue is hidden defects. There is no simple way to find out why those cells have less capacity so you don't know the dangers lurking inside the can. It can be uneven lamination or defective welding or micro shorts.
Thank you.
...but based on this explanation I still don't see why we should buy A grade cells only.
Shouldn't we rather find right tool for the job or right battery for certain controller/motor combo?

You have to rely on the honesty of people along the manufacturing chain.
That is a major problem I guess. YouTube is full of rants like "I paid extra for Samsung cells, I opened battery and there are cheap Chinese cells inside"
 
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Woosh

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...but based on this explanation I still don't see why we should buy A grade cells only.
Cells that are not 100% are likely to have hidden manufacturing defects.
we should all prioritise avoidance of risks.
 

Az.

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Cells that are not 100% are likely to have hidden manufacturing defects.
we should all prioritise avoidance of risks.
Question is - what is manufacturing defect? If consequence of this defect is capacity and/or continuous discharge rate reduced to 90% and price reduced to 50%, then I can live with that.

Surely cells with increased risk of fire wouldn't be knowingly sold... or am I wrong to assume that?

I don't see many sellers advertising their batteries under A,B and C categories.
 

Woosh

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Surely cells with increased risk of fire wouldn't be knowingly sold... or am I wrong to assume that?
We all instinctively agree that cells with hidden defects should not not be sold but there is no visible sign to distinguish those cells from the rest other than the wrapping and you have to trust the honesty of those involved in the manufacturing and distribution. I sometime compare that with buying a bottle of wine. I suppose you could look at how well the battery is packed, manuals, warranty, labellings etc. as indicators.
 

flecc

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Surely cells with increased risk of fire wouldn't be knowingly sold... or am I wrong to assume that?
They are, since the defects that lead to a cell under performing are intrinsically often a fire risk. The problem is that it is extremely difficult to produce consistently perfect lithium cells so there is a high reject rate.

Take Tesla's current nightmare. They are at the top of the e-car market because they are the highest performing, fastest accelerating with highest top speeds, but still with long range. But they can only do that by using the very best cells possible pushed to their limits, so on a knife edge.

Their cars started out using the same sort of small 18640 cells we have in our pedelecs, over 6000 of them so the risk of a faulty one included and causing a fire is high. The answer of course is bigger cells and less of them, so we now have the larger 21700 and even larger 4680 cells. But the industry found making them even more difficult so Tesla suffered from sub standard deliveries.

Their answer was to set up their own cells manufacturing to have tighter quality control, but despite every effort they've hit the same problems so aren't able to produce sufficient high grade cells to maintain car enough deliveries to meet orders.

So they've had to step back in time and send out their popular Model 3 and Model Y cars fitted with 7800 of the little 18640 cells in each car. Personally I wouldn't consider one, given it takes just one faulty cell to send the car up in flames and there's 7800 chances of having such a cell, that's too close to lottery odds of losing.

Currently Panasonic are setting up a 4680 cell production facility in Japan in the hope of being successful enough, knowing that Tesla would bite their hand off to have them in quantity.

The bottom line is that large, high capacity lithium cells probably should never have been on the market, since from the outset customers have been guinea pigs and still are. But the trouble is that they are so much better than Lead-Acid or Nickel Metal Hydride that it was impossible to resist taking the risk for the benefit.
.
 
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Az.

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I suppose you could look at how well the battery is packed, manuals, warranty, labellings etc. as indicators.
Smoke and mirrors. As customers we totally rely on what we are told. There is no way to tell what we buy, unless somebody is willing to compromise warranty, open battery and even then I have no clue how to tell if used cells are class A,B or C.

Speaking of which... I keep looking at your web page... Can't find any information about what cell class you sell. Am I just tired and can't see or is it not there?


Also other critical information is missing like what BMS is used, what is continuous discharge current, what is peak discharge current etc.
 
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Az.

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The problem is that it is extremely difficult to produce consistently perfect lithium cells so there is a high reject rate.
Problem is we as customers have no way to verify what we buy.
I find process of buying a battery extremely exhausting and frustrating. I am leaning towards importing battery from abroad (against my own advice).