New Bosch motors + better battery integration

[Danidl]

Think about the practical aspects. Ebikes are expensive (well ... decent ones are anyway). Most 'powerless sheds' are damp so you don't want to be keeping anything in there that you don't want to corrode and most decent sheds or garages have power!
And I bet it takes more than 2 seconds for the whole act of finding a set of keys and removing the battery.

No the key is on my fob, as the same key is used with the integral bikelock. A nice touch. And in my case I no longer have a garage, it having been converted into a flat. Look horses for courses and we are not in competition. I must have had an indecent garage.. who knew.

 

[anotherkiwi]

My power cord goes under the mat so no one can trip on it. I stopped charging downstairs when it became apparent we have termites and I thought that a battery fire near tinder dry termite ridden wood might not be a good idea! Work is in progress to fix that problem. My LiPos are charged in the oven, one of the perks of living alone...

 

[Danidl]

My power cord goes under the mat so no one can trip on it. I stopped charging downstairs when it became apparent we have termites and I thought that a battery fire near tinder dry termite ridden wood might not be a good idea! Work is in progress to fix that problem. My LiPos are charged in the oven, one of the perks of living alone...

.. charging down stairs is not usually a good idea , one slip and your through the front door.

 

[Trevormonty]

Being able to remove battery for charging is big plus if travelling. Ideal for topping battery up at cafe over lunch, not to many cafe would allow ebike inside for charging.

 

[Trevormonty]

Being able to remove battery for charging is big plus if travelling. Ideal for topping battery up at cafe over lunch, not to many cafes would allow ebike inside for charging.

 

[asc99c]

Is it possible to charge a Bosch bike without removing the battery? I've never tried to do it, but my battery is next to me charging off the bike, and the charge port is where it drops in to the bike.

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[Danidl]

Is it possible to charge a Bosch bike without removing the battery? I've never tried to do it, but my battery is next to me charging off the bike, and the charge port is where it drops in to the bike.

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Yes on the battery pack cradle there is an extra connector , under a rubber bung. On the side opposite the keyswitch. If the charger is connected to this the activia display indicates the charging

 

[footpump]

pretty sure my active line ktm macina is 50nm, I cant see the point of a 40nm
moter.
some of the Raleigh motus/captus have active line moters and are comuter bikes and are about 23kg.
local lbs sells orbea ebikes with steps system e600 e800 60nm and the higher 70nm or more.
if the bosch moters are a kilo lighter does that mean its plastic gears or could it mean possible problems like the impulse moters

 

[RobF]

Assuming the otherwise meaningless torque figures are at least good for comparison, a Bosch bike with barely half the grunt of a CX motor would be a bit too weedy for a lot of users.

Or it may only be usable in turbo for most of the time.

Quieter sounds good, low noise is not the strongest point of Bosch bikes.

 

[Danidl]

pretty sure my active line ktm macina is 50nm, I cant see the point of a 40nm
moter.
some of the Raleigh motus/captus have active line moters and are comuter bikes and are about 23kg.
local lbs sells orbea ebikes with steps system e600 e800 60nm and the higher 70nm or more.
if the bosch moters are a kilo lighter does that mean its plastic gears or could it mean possible problems like the impulse moters

.. the active line generates 50 NM in turbo mode into dereilliur gears. However a bald statement of torque without reference to rotational speed is totally inadequate... Especially in a bike which can use gears to transfer torque X speed in any ratio.
Until there is a body of experience on how this lighter motor operates in practice, any speculation on reliability is just that .. speculation.
Also don't assume that they are using plastic gears . There are metallic alloys which are lighter, for the same power handling.
There is no product that cannot be made lighter or cheaper by additional engineering effort.( Look at the Toblerone..).. The trick is to do it without compromising reliability. Only time will tell whether Bosch have carried out that trick.

 

[E-Wheels]

.. the active line generates 50 NM in turbo mode into dereilliur gears. However a bald statement of torque without reference to rotational speed is totally inadequate... Especially in a bike which can use gears to transfer torque X speed in any ratio.
Until there is a body of experience on how this lighter motor operates in practice, any speculation on reliability is just that .. speculation.
Also don't assume that they are using plastic gears . There are metallic alloys which are lighter, for the same power handling.
There is no product that cannot be made lighter or cheaper by additional engineering effort.( Look at the Toblerone..).. The trick is to do it without compromising reliability. Only time will tell whether Bosch have carried out that trick.

Is it possible that Bosch are using a belt in the new motors now with larger chain rings (as Brose) to achieve a quieter drive

 

[basicasic]

if the bosch moters are a kilo lighter does that mean its plastic gears

I was wondering the same thing. It seems a lot of weight to have saved on something so small in the first place. That said Bosch in general do have a good reputation and name to protect so I can't see them doing anything likely to ruin it; and if it reduces motor whine (which is my only criticism of my Bosch motor) it has got to be a good thing.

 

[asc99c]

I understand why they're unlikely to do it, but I wish those new power packs came in smaller sizes for the lower capacity options.

A 300wh pack would need 24 18650 cells using 3500 mAh cells. Arranged 2*2, 6 cells deep, you're talking a battery in the region of 4x4x40 cm. That really would fit unobtrusively into a downtube. Makes me wonder if a u-shaped downtube would be strong enough...

The technology is ready for the battery to be hidden away.

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[Trevormonty]

I understand why they're unlikely to do it, but I wish those new power packs came in smaller sizes for the lower capacity options.

A 300wh pack would need 24 18650 cells using 3500 mAh cells. Arranged 2*2, 6 cells deep, you're talking a battery in the region of 4x4x40 cm. That really would fit unobtrusively into a downtube. Makes me wonder if a u-shaped downtube would be strong enough...

The technology is ready for the battery to be hidden away.

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Most customers want bigger batteries, especially eMTB.

Bosch have to be able to match or better Shimano Steps which is their main competitor in this market. Most customers will go for 400-500WH battery over slightly more compact 300WH.

 

[asc99c]

Most customers want bigger batteries, especially eMTB.

As did I, but when at some point I'm thinking of replacing my bike, I know I won't need more than 300Wh.

So you know, I understand it, but just being selfish [emoji23] could be an ideal replacement for me.

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[Danidl]

I understand why they're unlikely to do it, but I wish those new power packs came in smaller sizes for the lower capacity options.

A 300wh pack would need 24 18650 cells using 3500 mAh cells. Arranged 2*2, 6 cells deep, you're talking a battery in the region of 4x4x40 cm. That really would fit unobtrusively into a downtube. Makes me wonder if a u-shaped downtube would be strong enough...

The technology is ready for the battery to be hidden away.

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.. the technology has been available to do that for a long time, but it still comes back to whether the compromise of having a battery embedded in the bike suits. .. see previous posts on charging. Battery packs mounted inside below the rear carrier are very unobtrusive., especially with panniers. I have to show people where it is on my bike.
Range anxiety is a common fear for ebike users, so I suspect that 200 to 300 whr packs will be seen as economy measures, even if they are suited to short commutes. I suspect that a 200 whr unit , which costs half as much as a 400 unit will have a lifetime of 3 to 4 times shorter than a 400 unit , when subject to the same regime.

 

[asc99c]

Actually I'm not sure the lifetime of a larger pack would be that much better right now.

It's not deep discharge that shortens the lifespan of lithium batteries, but a full charge, especially at high temps. A lot of laptops support charging to 80% to prolong usable life. Might be a nice feature with the Bosch charger - once you're confident how far the bike will go on a certain charge, and know how far you're going, range anxiety isn't such a big thing. I'd certainly choose 80% charge for my commute.

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[Kenny]

I think this lightweight motor could be ideal for folk of average fitness.

I find my lowish powered, nine year old Kalkoff, powerful enough and haven't been tempted to upgrade yet as the latest bikes are no lighter or better specced.

For my ideal bike, I'd like a nice lightweight hybrid aluminium or carbon frame with rack and mudguard mounts (almost impossible to find on carbon frames) and room for Big Apple tyres for a comfortable ride.

Boardman produce a hybrid weighing under 10kgs so a similar electric bike, with this motor and battery fitted, would be only 17kg complete with mudguards, rack and stand.

 

[asc99c]

Oh and FYI, I wasn't quite meaning the battery fully embedded. I was imagining a downtube of roughly normal proportions, but with a cut-out where the battery drops into the downtube, as per the new system photos. Right now, my Cube has a vaguely similar solution, but with a much more massive battery (much fatter and slightly shorter) with no frame matching covering on top since it's too big to hide anyway.

It looks like the new battery will integrate very well, but the downtube will still have to be very noticeably bigger than on a standard bike to accommodate the battery.


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[Danidl]

Actually I'm not sure the lifetime of a larger pack would be that much better right now.

It's not deep discharge that shortens the lifespan of lithium batteries, but a full charge, especially at high temps. A lot of laptops support charging to 80% to prolong usable life. Might be a nice feature with the Bosch charger - once you're confident how far the bike will go on a certain charge, and know how far you're going, range anxiety isn't such a big thing. I'd certainly choose 80% charge for my commute.

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.. my understanding is that deep discharges do reduce lifetime as does the total number of full charge cycles. The physical structure within the cell changes, volume increases as the chemical structure changes. The crystal structure is rigid and stresses cause mechanical strain and microbreaks. It is the range of excursions which matters.