New Bosch high performance motor unit.

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi.

Ok, so a hardtail will be perfect.

We'd suggest you try one of the new Panasonic hub drive bikes, before you rule out hub drive bikes. They are winning awards all over europe for the power and range, especially in the hills.

Something with 700c / 29" wheels and disc brakes will give you a lot of tyre options and also something nice and fast rolling, with offroad options should you need them.

If you're going with Bosch, you'll definitely need a 400w battery if you want 50 miles range. I've been riding a 300w Bosch drive bike around the hills and I can drain it in 40 miles (this is an MTB on the road, so a cross bike would be more efficient).

I'd recommend a trip to see Pete up at the Electric Bike Centre at Penrith.

http://www.electriccyclecentrepenrith.com/

he's selling loads of KTMs at the moment and will be able to give you a go on both the Bosch and Panasonic drives so you can compare.

Numbers wise, on the top settings.

the hub drive Panasonic gives 40 Nm torque, which compares to 48Nm on the Bosch Active Line, and 60 Nm on the Bosch Performance Line.

However the Panasonic gives up to 400% assist, compared to the Bosch drives which are 225% (Active Line) and 275% (Performance)

If it was my money, and i was in the shoes you've described I'd get a KTM eCross P.

If the shop in Penrith doesn't have a demo for you to try, get them to call us and we'll send one up.

Oh and PM me your address and we can send out a brochure for you to look at.

If you have any questions let me know.

Cheers
Col

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Hi KTM,
The rear hub ebikes don't have enough torque to climb the hills in the lakes

Where did you get that from? It's simply not true. You just have to choose a bike with a\high torque motor. There's loads of them, but only a few of them have gig enough batteries for 50 miles

 

[Lakeland]

I got that from my experience of riding in the lakes with a 250watt 8fun rear hub with a 36v20ah battery. Having to push a heavy bike up hill was not fun.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

A 250w 8Fun rear hub-motor has nowhere near the torque of an Ezee Mk2, a Bafang BPM or Bafang CST. It's about half the size. Go and try a bike with one of these motors, and then you can comment on whether hub-motors have enough torque for your rides. I have the Bafang CST in my bike, and it'll go up most of your hills without pedalling while you're puffing you guts out on your crank-drive.

 

[Tim]

Hi KTM,
I would be using the bike in a very hilly terrain and would need a range of 50 miles or more.The rear hub ebikes don't have enough torque to climb the hills in the lakes so i would probably be wanting something like the bosch mid drive. How much torque does the panasonic and the bosch deliver?

You're probably not going to get 50 miles with a 400Wh Bosch battery. You will get more than 50 miles with a 15Ah or 17Ah battery on something like the Kalkhoff Agattu or Pro Connect Impulse.

PS There's a whopping 70 Nm torque on the Impulse 2.0 centre drive models.

Kalkhoff bikes are also properly-equipped with front and rear lights, Magura hydraulic brakes, mudguards, luggage rack and you can charge the battery on or off the bike, which isn't possible with the older Bosch batteries. Kalkhoff Impulse batteries have a lifetime of 1,100 charge cycles before you're down to 60% remaining capacity, rather than 500 charge cycles you can expect with the Bosch batteries.

We do a Pro Connect Bosch Performance model as well, which is nice and well-priced with the 400Wh battery, but it's not one we'd recommend for maximising range.

 

[Artstu]

I used 80% of my 288 w/h Bosch battery today in just 11 miles, making the last 20% last the 11 miles home was interesting.

I'd have been much better off on an ordinary bike for those last 11 miles. I'd forgotten I had the small battery fitted, even the bigger battery would have required a little power saving to get me home.

 

[Tim]

I've done a little comparison of the Bosch motor vs Kalkhoff's new Impulse 2.0

Bosch still have some work to do catching up...

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I've done a little comparison of the Bosch motor vs Kalkhoff's new Impulse 2.0

Bosch still have some work to do catching up...

nice independent review that

perhaps I should write one for a KTM ....

 

[Croxden]

It might not be what you want, but it could be true and I am a Bosch fan.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

it could be true.... I'm not saying it isn't.

i'm just pointing out that when a brand have to do their own reviews... it is something that should at the very least be viewed with some cynicism.

and we work with a few different drive systems. None of which I'm defending or promoting or indeed saying anything about, I'm simply saying, one shouldn't review ones own products.

 

[Croxden]

It would be interesting to have a day when the most popular bikes could be tested by folk like us. This would take into account preferences of motor type, front, mid or hub and what we want a bike to do. Speed, hill climbing or off road.

Manifold had this but last year Kudos had to carry most of it. They work at getting the word out.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I've done a little comparison of the Bosch motor vs Kalkhoff's new Impulse 2.0

Bosch still have some work to do catching up...

And Tim, whilst you are on, can you explain why all your listings for the Karlkhoff 350w bikes no longer state that they aren't road legal?

For instance:

http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/endeavour-sport-fast/endeavour_bs10_xt.html

Should really say somewhere that its not road legal, shouldn't it? Or do you not think its relevant for your customers to know this?

Col

 

[Tim]

it could be true.... I'm not saying it isn't.

i'm just pointing out that when a brand have to do their own reviews... it is something that should at the very least be viewed with some cynicism.

and we work with a few different drive systems. None of which I'm defending or promoting or indeed saying anything about, I'm simply saying, one shouldn't review ones own products.

The Bosch system is excellent, but it's not the best in many respects. We've been selling Bosch-powered bikes here since 2011and have their full range of spares listed on the website http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/e-bike-spares-and-accessories/bosch-spares.html

The Xion drive also compares well to the KTM eLycan, as we have already established. The really interesting ATB model this year will be the Thron.

As for the Speed bikes, the specs will fall in line of course, it's been a busy time this week, many new products appearing at one. New website and new showrooms opening in coming weeks and months.

KTM - further up this thread you've offered a very similar exposition of the Bosch specs for this year, wattages, Newton metres and all that. But Bosch isn't the only centre motor system and my post is more a comparison than a review, isn't it. There are loads of reviews on our website, anyone can see for themselves.

We sell both Bosch & Impulse bikes, we've sold Honda, Panasonic, Haibike, Emotion, eZee, Freego and Oxygen bikes in the past. All have their strong points, some were real winners (the eZee Torq and Quando stand out, along with the Honda Step Compo which still looks ahead of its time 12 years later) and i wouldn't sell anything I wouldn't ride (which is why we don't have any trikes at the moment - I find them a bit disconcerting anywhere there are speed bumps). My current daily wheels are the Sahel Harmony, suits my purposes perfectly and I like the gadgetiness of the transmission and its handling.

Sorry to crash your Bosch appreciation thread, I just felt the need to point out that there are other options, as is pointed out so often here. Visit one of our showrooms and you can try both, all three motor systems in fact.

 

[Tim]

For instance:

http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/endeavour-sport-fast/endeavour_bs10_xt.html

I'm glad you pointed that one out, I'd not thought to zoom in on the 2014 BS10 XT until this evening, looks gorgeous doesn't it? If only it had a 17Ah battery, 70Nm and a proper electromechanical Shift Assist like its Impulse II equivalent:

http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/endeavour-sport-fast/endeavour_impulse_s10_xt.html

which is confusingly £100 cheaper - how do they do that?

 

[Backin5]

And yet again the circling dealers start bickering over the kill, sorry, sale. It leaves the taste of a bit of sick in the back if my throat.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way though? Rather than be affronted by viewing this forum as a thinly veiled advertising vehicle, I should try harder to cut through the BS and actually work out what 'the bestest bike' may be.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

None of them are the best. They're all good. I don't know how anybody can choose now. Only when you have very specific requirements can you narrow down the field, like the guy that wants to to do 50 miles. The problem is people coming on and muddying the field. Anybody can do 50 miles on any electric bike if they're fit and light, but when people state facts, they don't disclose the pertinent ones. IMHO, a non-sporting guy will get about 30 miles from a 10 aH 36v battery on mixed but not extreme terrain, so 50 miles will require a 15 aH battery minimum and some conservative use of it. Carrying a spare battery in a rucksack is not really an option. If you've done it, you'll know that it gets a bit uncomfortable after 20 miles.

 

[flecc]

We sell both Bosch & Impulse bikes, we've sold Honda, Panasonic, Haibike, Emotion, eZee, Freego and Oxygen bikes in the past.

Almost complete Tim, but you missed out another very high quality brand you sold in the past, Sparta.

 

[Artstu]

I'm hoping to ride my Bosch KTM in nothing higher than the half power tour setting on my next few rides to see what sort of mileage I can get from the 400 w/h battery.

A spare battery in the pannier isn't noticeable in the pannier when on full power.

After just one ride my current thinking is why bother with an e-bike in low power. Yes it's faster than if the bike were just an ordinary hybrid bicycle. A lighter touring bike would be very similar in speed though, mainly faster on the flat and just a fraction behind on the hills for me personally.

 

[flecc]

After just one ride my current thinking is why bother with an e-bike in low power. Yes it's faster than if the bike were just an ordinary hybrid bicycle. A lighter touring bike would be very similar in speed though, mainly faster on the flat and just a fraction behind on the hills for me personally.

That's always been my thinking too. Low power mode at best just cancels the extra weight and rolling resistance of an e-bike, so is pointless.

One might as well enjoy the far better cycling qualities of an unpowered light road bike.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

After just one ride my current thinking is why bother with an e-bike in low power. Yes it's faster than if the bike were just an ordinary hybrid bicycle. A lighter touring bike would be very similar in speed though, mainly faster on the flat and just a fraction behind on the hills for me personally.

You raise a very good point. This is where the hub-motored bikes with speed control get an advantage. When you set level one, it sets a target speed (say 9mph). If you pedal above that speed, you don't use any power from the motor, but as you slow down on a hill, the power is increased in an attempt to get back to target speed, so this system gives you the power when you need it most They don't all behave exactly the same, Some reduce the power a bit as well (normally the more expensive ones), so, in this case, cheaper is better.

Many people don't understand this fundamental difference between speed control and torque control systems. Torque control might be better for sporting cyclists, but for the unfit, weak, lazy and normal people, speed control is better IMHO.