New bike

[Peter Ball]

If someone gave you £2000 to spend on a new hybrid bike which one would it be and why?

 

[vfr400]

It depends on what they wanted to do with it. If they wanted to use it as a boat anchor, I'd recommend a Kalkhoff Impulse.

 

[Nealh]

I would consider one of the new Wisper offerings as they are UK owned, designed and assembled in UK/EU or a Woosh for the same reason, no use any one saying 'but they are made in China/Taiwan' because all bikes are even Bosch , Yamaha and steps etc,etc. They may be put together in Germany or where ever but they are still China/Taiwan produced.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I would consider one of the new Wisper offerings as they are UK owned, designed and assembled in UK/EU or a Woosh for the same reason, no use any one saying 'but they are made in China/Taiwan' because all bikes are even Bosch , Yamaha and steps etc,etc. They may be put together in Germany or where ever but they are still China/Taiwan produced.

The big difference is that Bosch stuff made in China is designed in Germany and manufactured under their strict qualify controls.

Whereas the Chinese stuff isn't.

 

[Woosh]

The big difference is that Bosch stuff made in China is designed in Germany and manufactured under their strict qualify controls.

Whereas the Chinese stuff isn't.

since the EU imposed anti dumping duty of 87% on Chinese made e-bikes, all the assembly has moved to the EU.
Wispers are assembled in Portugal, Wooshes in Southend-on-Sea.
Peter and his OH had sold their wooshes and now looking for something new. Maybe the new Woosh Rambla with Bafang Max Drive could be a candidate but I doubt it.

Woosh Rambla, arriving late November, price £1,299, in white and matt black.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

since the EU imposed anti dumping duty of 87% on Chinese made e-bikes, all the assembly has moved to the EU.
Wispers are assembled in Portugal, Wooshes in Southend-on-Sea.
Peter and his OH had sold their wooshes and now looking for something new. Maybe the new Woosh Rambla with Bafang Max Drive could be a candidate but I doubt it.

Woosh Rambla, arriving late November, price £1,299, in white and matt black.

Nealh was referring to the cycle parts designed by Bosch , Yamaha etc and made in China and I was doing likewise in my reply to him.
Are the motors and controllers in Woosh bikes designed and made in China?

 

[Woosh]

Are the motors and controllers in Woosh bikes designed and made in China?

yes, almost all the parts are made there.
Motors are from Bafang, controllers from Lishui, cableset from Julet, LCD from King Meter (part of Bafang empire), brakes from Tektro, forks from Suntour, pedals from Wellgo, saddles from Selle Royale, seat post from Axa, handlebars from Zoom, tyres and tubes from Kenda, lights from Spanninga.
Only battery cells are made elsewhere (S. Korea) and assembled in China, we only slot them into the finished bikes.
We only choose the parts and assemble. You can buy replacement parts either from us or aliexpress. Unlike German bikes, Chinese sourced bikes are a cottage industry.

 

[D C]

If someone gave you £2000 to spend on a new hybrid bike which one would it be and why?

My choice would be Giant Fathom E+3
Not strictly a Hybrid but has built in fixings for mudguards, easy to fit a rack and it's bang on your budget.
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/gb/fathom-eplus-3-electric-bike-202
I almost bought one but instead bought the E+2 with bigger battery and front Mech.
With a smaller budget I would be looking at Woosh.
Dave.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

yes, almost all the parts are made there.
Motors are from Bafang, controllers from Lishui, cableset from Julet, LCD from King Meter (part of Bafang empire)

Almost all, if not all, ebike electronics and motors are made in China. What sets these components apart from the likes of Bosch is that Bosch components are designed in Germany and manufactured in China under strict Bosch quality controls.
This is the point I was making to Nealh.

 

[sjpt]

The big difference is that Bosch stuff made in China is designed in Germany and manufactured under their strict qualify controls.

Whereas the Chinese stuff isn't.

I think the Daum Impulse was designed in Germany and manufactured under their ?strict? qualify controls, but from what I have read it didn't make it more reliable than the 'pure' Chinese models. There have been quite a few rumblings about (or from the bearings of) the Bosch Performance line CX as well.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

I think the Daum Impulse was designed in Germany and manufactured under their ?strict? qualify controls, but from what I have read it didn't make it more reliable than the 'pure' Chinese models

The exception that proves the rule?
Very few people would claim that everything coming out of Germany is perfect, I would never go near a MB car again after some terrible experiences with them around 15 years ago when the wings rusted through on a 6 year old car!!

 

[Woosh]

Almost all, if not all, ebike electronics and motors are made in China. What sets these components apart from the likes of Bosch is that Bosch components are designed in Germany and manufactured in China under strict Bosch quality controls.
This is the point I was making to Nealh.

you may not have noticed the quality control at Bafang's factories. It's just as good as European. If you look at statistical failures reported by members, Bafang motors are just as reliable.
Where the quality may be lower is in the connectors. Bosch for example design their own connectors and wiring looms, resulting in very high quality water proofing. Julet connectors are simple and although the manufacturing is just as good, the design lets the products down on occasion.
Julet and Higo do have a high end range of connectors that we can use but the problem is customers cannot get replacement cables and connectors from ebay and amazon. It's a commercial decision, not a technical one.
Here is an example of high end connector from Higo:

 

[sjpt]

There is clearly plenty of rubbish stuff (ebike related and other) coming from China. Do we have any evidence that overall reliability of the German designed things is higher than for quality Chinese manufacturers' equivalents?

 

[vfr400]

There is clearly plenty of rubbish stuff (ebike related and other) coming from China. Do we have any evidence that overall reliability of the German designed things is higher than for quality Chinese manufacturers' equivalents?

I think there's enough anecdotal evidence to say that Chinese hub-motor systems are generally more reliable than the European crank-motor systems. I would say The Europeans edge ahead on crank-motor systems, but it's difficult to say because a lot of people get their European ones fixed under warranty. Last year I was in an electric bike shop talking to the owner, and he showed me a big pile of Bosch motors waiting to go back. He said that he was quite disappointed in their early failure rate, but we didn't get any significant problems at our local shop.

Redalexx has provided some really good analysis of all the problems and the reliability of the different motors here:

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[Laser Man]

There is clearly plenty of rubbish stuff (ebike related and other) coming from China. Do we have any evidence that overall reliability of the German designed things is higher than for quality Chinese manufacturers' equivalents?

The business model in China/South Korea etc. tends to be a bit different to that of the West in that you get *** exactly what you pay for ***.
If you ask for a discount they will always say "yes", but will then make the product with cheaper components and/or cut the QC so that they end up with their original profit margin.

I quickly learnt this lesson in a previous life when specifying electro-mechanical components for payment terminals - paying their price and asking nicely for top quality worked out really well!

 

[Woosh]

I quickly learnt this lesson in a previous life when specifying electro-mechanical components for payment terminals - paying their price and asking nicely for top quality worked out really well!

it's not difficult to get the right quality, a little diplomacy goes a long way. The biggest problem is translation: you have to send lots of pictures with arrows to make sure that the other party does not misunderstand.

 

[John F]

Interesting learning about the design of connectors and the possibility of water damage.

Regarding Julet connectors, presumably it would be a good idea to wrap some insulation tape around each connection, or perhaps apply silicone sealant on the connectors and anywhere else I might think water might get in?

 

[Woosh]

Interesting learning about the design of connectors and the possibility of water damage.

Your Camino is particularly well protected against water and humidity. All the junctions are inside the downtube, plenty of air around them.

Regarding Julet connectors, presumably it would be a good idea to wrap some insulation tape around each connection, or perhaps apply silicone sealant on the connectors and anywhere else I might think water might get in?

I tried that and it does not work. The problem is humidity rather than liquid water. The Julet connectors have a single O ring seal, they are good against water but still insufficient against condensation.
Bafang connectors have double O rings. Much more effective.
What Bosch do is to have a housing with plenty of air gap to house one or more connectors inside. It's bulky but highly effective, a bit like what you find in your car's wing mirrors. When vapour condenses, the droplets go to the wall of the housing rather than penetrating inside the connectors, giving the droplets plenty of time to dry out when the weather gets dry.

 

[vfr400]

I always put silicone grease in them that seems to do the job.

 

[John F]

Sorry guys, I'm confused! This is what I am referring to, though they don't seem to be connectors?