At last Bionx have produced a 48V kit, this should be one powerful piece of kit.
BionX PL350 Lightweight, Long-Range Electric Bike Motor Kit
BionX PL350 Lightweight, Long-Range Electric Bike Motor Kit
New 48V ! Bionx
- Thread starter overlander
- Start date
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The Americans market what everyone really wants while in Europe the politicians get involved and we the British comply as usual. The French and Germans do not give a hoot and do what they want and continue to supply what the customer demands. The exceptions here are companies like Alien Ocean and I applaud there initiative. If I were in the market for a non folding bike they would be my first choice as the Aurora tops anything else available.
I have no connection with Alien.
Alex
The Americans market what everyone really wants while in Europe the politicians get involved and we the British comply as usual. The French and Germans do not give a hoot and do what they want and continue to supply what the customer demands. The exceptions here are companies like Alien Ocean and I applaud there initiative. If I were in the market for a non folding bike they would be my first choice as the Aurora tops anything else available.
I have no connection with Alien.
Alex
Yep, i came to the same conclusion, which is why after lots of research i've decided i'll be buying an Aurora. Oh i'm sure Wispers and such are fine bikes, but i cant justify the premium for one.
As for the law, well that's an ass isnt it? The BionX 48v looks good, but HOW MUCH!? for a kit?!
As for the law, well that's an ass isnt it? The BionX 48v looks good, but HOW MUCH!? for a kit?!
Yes i agree the law is an ass here and i to will be ignoring it as well from now on. Yes bionx kit is so expensive but from my experience worth every dime. I tried all sorts of motors and for me the bionx system stood miles out. In the end it was a toss up between the Aurora and the trek, i was so tempted with the extra go in the Aurora.
I was also concerned about the small battery in the Trek but again bionx seem to pull the rabbit out the bag. Like for like battery ratings the bionx seems to run significantly longer, why i have no idea. So for this reason they can get away with using lower rated batteries, unfortunately they seem to charge for this privilege.
Now i do not know if this is a one off but my UK spec trek has ended up with the 350 Watt USA motor. Now if you look at the cost of the comparable Trek bike FX 4 - FX 5 and the price of a 350 w kit i got the bargain of the year.
I am considering sending away for the American consul to try and unleash the proper power of this motor and that should top out at 32 km/h. But i probably would need the bigger battery and that comes in at 1000 bucks, ohh i'm feeling dizzy.
But one thing is for certain unless any uk bike cannot be adapted to the 32 km/h speed and preferably 350 Watt motor up i will not be touching it as i can ride faster on my normal bike now my knee is getting better. In this case the law is indeed an ass.
I was also concerned about the small battery in the Trek but again bionx seem to pull the rabbit out the bag. Like for like battery ratings the bionx seems to run significantly longer, why i have no idea. So for this reason they can get away with using lower rated batteries, unfortunately they seem to charge for this privilege.
Now i do not know if this is a one off but my UK spec trek has ended up with the 350 Watt USA motor. Now if you look at the cost of the comparable Trek bike FX 4 - FX 5 and the price of a 350 w kit i got the bargain of the year.
I am considering sending away for the American consul to try and unleash the proper power of this motor and that should top out at 32 km/h. But i probably would need the bigger battery and that comes in at 1000 bucks, ohh i'm feeling dizzy.
But one thing is for certain unless any uk bike cannot be adapted to the 32 km/h speed and preferably 350 Watt motor up i will not be touching it as i can ride faster on my normal bike now my knee is getting better. In this case the law is indeed an ass.
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I strongly disagree that the law on pedelecs is an ass, the law itself is about right as one would expect from a law modified by time and experience over 27 years.
The notion that 32 kph (20 mph) is a normal cycling speed is pure bunkum. The only riders who commonly ride at that speed are the sporting types, drop handlebars etc. Utility cyclist and most MTB and mountain bike riders commonly ride in the 12 to 15 mph region, many slower, all permitted with assistance by current law.
And that's the whole point, electric assistance is for those who need to be assisted to maintain normal cycling speeds, and they are by definition not fit sporting cyclists, the latter not needing assistance.
Those who argue for more speed are arguing for e-bikes to either become a faster breed of bicycle or a class to enable the unfit to become a match for sport cyclists, which is pointless.
Anyone anywhere in the whole of the EU can have higher speeds and powers, subject to the regulation appropriate for such vehicles, there is no bar and the laws make infinite provision for all to be suited.
25 kph (15.5 mph) is a generous assist limit, faster in fact than most utility cyclists ride at, many countries commonly use rather slower speeds such as in the Netherlands where cycling is often done in a very leisurely fashion. In the UK the assist limit used to be 12 mph which was a common utility cycling speed when most of Britain cycled in the 1940s and '50s, so the increase to 15 mph to better harmonise with Europe was already a concession unlikely to be repeated.
I note that many are choosing to ignore the law and buy illegal faster e-bikes, but those who add to these numbers inevitably bring closer the day when the police crack down and any driving licences held will be lost in consequence.
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The notion that 32 kph (20 mph) is a normal cycling speed is pure bunkum. The only riders who commonly ride at that speed are the sporting types, drop handlebars etc. Utility cyclist and most MTB and mountain bike riders commonly ride in the 12 to 15 mph region, many slower, all permitted with assistance by current law.
And that's the whole point, electric assistance is for those who need to be assisted to maintain normal cycling speeds, and they are by definition not fit sporting cyclists, the latter not needing assistance.
Those who argue for more speed are arguing for e-bikes to either become a faster breed of bicycle or a class to enable the unfit to become a match for sport cyclists, which is pointless.
Anyone anywhere in the whole of the EU can have higher speeds and powers, subject to the regulation appropriate for such vehicles, there is no bar and the laws make infinite provision for all to be suited.
25 kph (15.5 mph) is a generous assist limit, faster in fact than most utility cyclists ride at, many countries commonly use rather slower speeds such as in the Netherlands where cycling is often done in a very leisurely fashion. In the UK the assist limit used to be 12 mph which was a common utility cycling speed when most of Britain cycled in the 1940s and '50s, so the increase to 15 mph to better harmonise with Europe was already a concession unlikely to be repeated.
I note that many are choosing to ignore the law and buy illegal faster e-bikes, but those who add to these numbers inevitably bring closer the day when the police crack down and any driving licences held will be lost in consequence.
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Yes the bike might have a top speed of 15 mph but realistically that give you an average of what 8-10 mph. Now if you take the more powerful machines this will probably average out at 12-14 mph, so in reality still well within reasonable cycling speeds. Lets put it this way in America they have the 20 mph limit and your typical American average waddle is to the car and back. So if they can handle 20 mph without wiping themselves out I'm sure we can.
Yes i do agree that some of these kits you buy on e-bay are pushing it but as for the strictly regulated 20 mph machines i have no issue with.
Yes i do agree that some of these kits you buy on e-bay are pushing it but as for the strictly regulated 20 mph machines i have no issue with.
Yes overlander, I'm sure many can handle it, but that isn't the point of the law.
This law is simply to ensure that a pedelec remains an average bicycle when in use, just adding assistance to enable those whose ability is impaired to continue with normal cycling. In return for that limitation to remaining a normal bike in every way, we are exempted from motor vehicle law. If we get more performance, obviously we will also incur some motor vehicle restrictions as has happened with the high speed classes in Germany and Switzerland. There they have selections of such additions as registration, number plates, compulsory insurance and helmet wearing.
It's not about averages, normal cycling speeds on the flat outside of the sport riding area are typically 12 to 15 mph and the averages much lower if hills and headwinds come into play. Even the present assist law allows pedelecs to achieve much better averages than normal bikes in adverse circumstances, so no more is needed.
There is a separate and perhaps more legitimate argument that more power should be permitted so that those with greater disabilities could still cycle, but I think that's best dealt with under a clause in the law allowing more power and throttles only to those registered with appropriate disability.
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This law is simply to ensure that a pedelec remains an average bicycle when in use, just adding assistance to enable those whose ability is impaired to continue with normal cycling. In return for that limitation to remaining a normal bike in every way, we are exempted from motor vehicle law. If we get more performance, obviously we will also incur some motor vehicle restrictions as has happened with the high speed classes in Germany and Switzerland. There they have selections of such additions as registration, number plates, compulsory insurance and helmet wearing.
It's not about averages, normal cycling speeds on the flat outside of the sport riding area are typically 12 to 15 mph and the averages much lower if hills and headwinds come into play. Even the present assist law allows pedelecs to achieve much better averages than normal bikes in adverse circumstances, so no more is needed.
There is a separate and perhaps more legitimate argument that more power should be permitted so that those with greater disabilities could still cycle, but I think that's best dealt with under a clause in the law allowing more power and throttles only to those registered with appropriate disability.
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Across the pond
Here is my view from "across the pond" (just joined by the way). Power is not the issue, it is speed for the intended use. I ride a bike that is driven through the cranks. I have a device that can be programmed to limit the current and/or speed. I have it programmed to limit the current to 15 amps, which corresponds to around 550W. It came speed limited to 32 kph, but as I rarely exceed this anyway, I disabled this. I ride to work every day and half the trip is on a "greenway" (a paved trail about 4 feed wide that frequently goes through wooded areas in a medium sized city. Usually used by joggers, bikers, and walkers). When I am on the trail I am frequently passed by "sport riders" on road bikes. While I could ride at their speed, I don't for two reasons: 1) I am a bike commuter and getting home without jostling my kidneys into peanut butter is more important than getting there 2 minutes earlier (the trail is fairly bumpy), and 2) the bike trail is heavily used by pedestrians. It is not power that is a problem on the trail but speed. There are rude sport bikers that pass pedestrians in a fairly dangerous manner and there are some that do not. On the open road, it will not do better than about 32 kph on a flat road because the rider position is fairly upright. Going downhill, I will hit maybe 42 kph. I use the power to get up hills. Actually, if it weren't for hills, the motor would not be nearly as useful. As it is, the route is hilly enough that few people ride bikes for commuting, even those in very good shape.
On the open road, doing 32-48 kph (20-30 mph) would not be a problem in most places in my area, but it would depend on how you were riding and the road conditions. I don't subscribe the to idea that an ebike shouldn't allow a rider, disabled or not, fit or not, to go as fast or faster than a sport bike rider. It probably annoys the sport bike rider who feels he/she is somehow "earning it" and the ebiker is "cheating". However, the ebike rider is probably a commuter and where I live, the sport bike rider is probably riding his bike in a loop back to where he/she parked the car. For me, my ebike is transportation first and exercise second. The speed of it is more about safety than fairness. I don't see any point in limiting power. If the speed were limited to 32 kph, it would not change my ride time by more than a few minutes, but limiting the power would stop my use of the bike as an alternate to driving a car to work.
Great forum here. I also read endless-sphere.com which is more Australian/US-centric.
Here is my view from "across the pond" (just joined by the way). Power is not the issue, it is speed for the intended use. I ride a bike that is driven through the cranks. I have a device that can be programmed to limit the current and/or speed. I have it programmed to limit the current to 15 amps, which corresponds to around 550W. It came speed limited to 32 kph, but as I rarely exceed this anyway, I disabled this. I ride to work every day and half the trip is on a "greenway" (a paved trail about 4 feed wide that frequently goes through wooded areas in a medium sized city. Usually used by joggers, bikers, and walkers). When I am on the trail I am frequently passed by "sport riders" on road bikes. While I could ride at their speed, I don't for two reasons: 1) I am a bike commuter and getting home without jostling my kidneys into peanut butter is more important than getting there 2 minutes earlier (the trail is fairly bumpy), and 2) the bike trail is heavily used by pedestrians. It is not power that is a problem on the trail but speed. There are rude sport bikers that pass pedestrians in a fairly dangerous manner and there are some that do not. On the open road, it will not do better than about 32 kph on a flat road because the rider position is fairly upright. Going downhill, I will hit maybe 42 kph. I use the power to get up hills. Actually, if it weren't for hills, the motor would not be nearly as useful. As it is, the route is hilly enough that few people ride bikes for commuting, even those in very good shape.
On the open road, doing 32-48 kph (20-30 mph) would not be a problem in most places in my area, but it would depend on how you were riding and the road conditions. I don't subscribe the to idea that an ebike shouldn't allow a rider, disabled or not, fit or not, to go as fast or faster than a sport bike rider. It probably annoys the sport bike rider who feels he/she is somehow "earning it" and the ebiker is "cheating". However, the ebike rider is probably a commuter and where I live, the sport bike rider is probably riding his bike in a loop back to where he/she parked the car. For me, my ebike is transportation first and exercise second. The speed of it is more about safety than fairness. I don't see any point in limiting power. If the speed were limited to 32 kph, it would not change my ride time by more than a few minutes, but limiting the power would stop my use of the bike as an alternate to driving a car to work.
Great forum here. I also read endless-sphere.com which is more Australian/US-centric.
Welcome to the forum pdf. You will find this forum split into 3 camps, strictly legal, just illegal and restricted 20 mph, and the smallest group, 30 mph.
I would say the first two groups are the majority of people on here, its a very civil forum and everyone gets their say. I do have to admit i like this forum as it seems to be frequented with people who actually don't speak in text language
I would say the first two groups are the majority of people on here, its a very civil forum and everyone gets their say. I do have to admit i like this forum as it seems to be frequented with people who actually don't speak in text language
Good input pdf, the national differences are always interesting. Of course some states in the USA have very high levels of power allowed, others less, since state laws have precedence over many federal laws.
There's a downside to this freedom though, two states have outright bans on e-bikes, Illinois being particularly strict with a catch 22 that they won't allow them to be registered as motor vehicles either. Against that Britain looks very tolerant!
The drift worldwide seems to be towards more restriction, some Australian states such as Victoria now seem determined to introduce EU style pedelec only law. Chinese authorities are getting increasingly stroppy about the free-for-all that's long existed there and there are outright bans in the odd city and many individual highway bans on e-bikes in some larger cities there.
Probably the best we can expect within the EU is to hold the pedelec status quo and not lose more freedom, while in Britain we are to lose independent throttle controls as Northern Ireland in the UK has already done since November 10th 2003. No-one's told them yet though, but they know now!
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There's a downside to this freedom though, two states have outright bans on e-bikes, Illinois being particularly strict with a catch 22 that they won't allow them to be registered as motor vehicles either. Against that Britain looks very tolerant!
The drift worldwide seems to be towards more restriction, some Australian states such as Victoria now seem determined to introduce EU style pedelec only law. Chinese authorities are getting increasingly stroppy about the free-for-all that's long existed there and there are outright bans in the odd city and many individual highway bans on e-bikes in some larger cities there.
Probably the best we can expect within the EU is to hold the pedelec status quo and not lose more freedom, while in Britain we are to lose independent throttle controls as Northern Ireland in the UK has already done since November 10th 2003. No-one's told them yet though, but they know now!
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Mixed feelings about this. I seem to see quite a lot of serious racing and MTB cyclists round here doing over 20mph. But having large numbers of 20mph E-Bikes around would probably not be such a great idea. Bicycles start getting pretty sketchy at that speed with pumped up hard tyres, limited suspension and badly adjusted brakes. Especially given the state of the roads now.
Ignoring the law, I think there's a sweet spot around 350w and an absolute top speed on the flat of about 20mph. It means you can ride most of the time at 15-18 and just power up the hills. The legal limit of 250w and 25kmph feels weak by comparison and struggles in some situations.
I really don't see what the problem is with throttles and why the EU ban them. They give much finer control than the delayed all or nothing of a pedelec. Pedelec is fine as a sort of cruise control on open roads, but it feels to me to be more dangerous in heavy traffic.
As long as everyone does bicycle type things and looks like a bicycle while generally obeying the law and not getting stupid, I can't see the forces of awe and boredom taking much interest. If you're doing 30mph on the flat, then I think you should be treated like a moped and need helmet, 3rd party insurance, MOT, etc etc.
Ignoring the law, I think there's a sweet spot around 350w and an absolute top speed on the flat of about 20mph. It means you can ride most of the time at 15-18 and just power up the hills. The legal limit of 250w and 25kmph feels weak by comparison and struggles in some situations.
I really don't see what the problem is with throttles and why the EU ban them. They give much finer control than the delayed all or nothing of a pedelec. Pedelec is fine as a sort of cruise control on open roads, but it feels to me to be more dangerous in heavy traffic.
As long as everyone does bicycle type things and looks like a bicycle while generally obeying the law and not getting stupid, I can't see the forces of awe and boredom taking much interest. If you're doing 30mph on the flat, then I think you should be treated like a moped and need helmet, 3rd party insurance, MOT, etc etc.
We had the lastest production sheets through from Kalkhoff earlier in the week and I spotted that the Kalkhoff Image B27 BionX Electric Bike comes with a 48V battery pack, not the 36V pack originally specified.
I checked with Kalkhoff and they confirmed this. I presume it's still a 250W motor though.
I checked with Kalkhoff and they confirmed this. I presume it's still a 250W motor though.
This is possible already in many cases, more a matter of the individual designs than the way the law is. The allowed 10% tolerance on the 15.5 mph means that 17 mph is ok, and some legal bikes are more powerful than others. For example an eZee Quando will take a 12 stone person up 1 in 8 (12%) without any pedalling at all since eZee design at the upper legal limits. Others set their motor/controller combinations at average levels for more range, while a few like Powacycle design at the lower power level for low weight and good range at moderate cost. So the bike choice is the really important factor, one which many get wrong.
I tend to agree with this view, especially regarding low speed control in confined traffic situations. It's the philosophy of having pedelecs the same as normal bikes that prompts the power control law to only be via the pedals. The problem is that while normal bike riders get on fine in heavy traffic with their power only through the pedals, it's difficult to convince that it can't be done with a pedelec. Telling the authorities that it's the power that makes it difficult will probably prompt them to cut the 250 watts!
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Like i say in my post, not sure why but bionx motors seem to do better with smaller batteries. But from my experience stay away from 4 assist(200%) mix it with 2 and 3 you could get 30 miles. But it does depend on rider weight hills etc. I do think they should make 10 a/hr standard as they cost a fortune to buy, over $1000. Again the battery packs last longer than most packs and 900 charges are not uncommon but you pay the price.Not that great for range I would think as only a 6 Ah battery
Faster E Bikes
The illegal ones will manage to get away with it provided they don`t become too numerous . The moment pedestrians start getting mown down on cycle tracks by powered machines , something will be done . Accidents with ordinary bikes are accepted , but mention powered and that`s a different kettle of fish . I ride a 1982 Suzuki X7 , the first 100 mph 250 cc machine back in the late 1970`s when Learners were permitted to ride 250`s . This machine`s performance resulted in Learners being restricted to 125 cc machines .What happened next?The Manufacturers came up with 30hp 125cc machines capable of 100 mph . What happened next ? Learners were restricted to 15 hp machines .
Believe me if the boundaries are pushed too far this is the result . It could happen with E Bikes just as easily .
The illegal ones will manage to get away with it provided they don`t become too numerous . The moment pedestrians start getting mown down on cycle tracks by powered machines , something will be done . Accidents with ordinary bikes are accepted , but mention powered and that`s a different kettle of fish . I ride a 1982 Suzuki X7 , the first 100 mph 250 cc machine back in the late 1970`s when Learners were permitted to ride 250`s . This machine`s performance resulted in Learners being restricted to 125 cc machines .What happened next?The Manufacturers came up with 30hp 125cc machines capable of 100 mph . What happened next ? Learners were restricted to 15 hp machines .
Believe me if the boundaries are pushed too far this is the result . It could happen with E Bikes just as easily .
As ever though, both voltage and amperage have to taken into account when assessing power and range. 48 volts x 6 Ah is the same as 36 volts x 8 Ah, both 288 watt/hours.Not that great for range I would think as only a 6 Ah battery
Therefore a moderate range system tending to run at lower motor temperatures so potentially higher reliability.
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