national differences

[Leonardo]

I have a question about the different national models of the same ebike/pedelec.
Giant Lafree was sold in EU with a 250W motor and in the USA with a “250/390W” motor.
Ezee are sold in UK with a 200W motor, in Germany with a 250W one, and in the USA with a 400W motor, if I’m not wrong.
I wonder if those different national models have different motors or if all depends upon different controllers.
It is an academic curiosity… but I’m curious to understand as well if, in case it is always the same motor, it is easy to modify the bicycle to a different power.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

I have a question about the different national models of the same ebike/pedelec.
Giant Lafree was sold in EU with a 250W motor and in the USA with a “250/390W” motor.
Ezee are sold in UK with a 200W motor, in Germany with a 250W one, and in the USA with a 400W motor, if I’m not wrong.
I wonder if those different national models have different motors or if all depends upon different controllers.
It is an academic curiosity… but I’m curious to understand as well if, in case it is always the same motor, it is easy to modify the bicycle to a different power.

If you haven't already had a read of this web page on the AtoB website, you should find it helpful with some of your questions Electric Bicycle Questions Answered I only have experience relating to the Giant Twist and the Giant Workshop manual lists the motor as "Motor unit DC Blush less motor 24V—240W" (yes complete with spelling mistake). There has been at least one revision to the powerplant assy used to make the Twist during it's period in production however. Unfortunately I dont have further details on what the changes were or their significance. The power ratings used can be interpreted in different ways such as whats the average power, whats the peak power or whats the power consumption (the last one includes power wasted due to inefficiencies as heat) - hence why more than one figure may provided as in the example you gave. With the Twist, other than changing the gearing by using different sprockets (with possible legal implications), I'm unaware of any way to modify the performance characteristics. Having stated that, I believe there is some way because my bike came back from its first service at the dealer performing quite differently to when it went in.

The actual power figures are far from the be all and end all. The Swizzbee 50C for Germany is capable of maintaining about 50 kmph with moderate effort and its motor is only listed as a Heinzmann DC 24V, 270W unit you can therfore see other things come into it. The Swiss Flyer is also available with different performance characteristics for different markets (and even in the same market).

For people considering buying an electric bike, there will likely be other factors which are more important in the buying decision. For example what is the owner wanting the bike to do over what sort of terrain and distance.

 

[flecc]

Hello Leonardo

In answer to your Lafree question:

The US Twist is the same motor, but for marketing purposes is sold by quoting both the average figure of 250 watts as used in our market and the maximum output which is 390 watts. Both are exactly what my UK Twist has. Presumably they do that since 250 watts sounds very low by US standards.

I recollect seeing a manufacturer comment on the eZee Torq motor and believe it was the same in the differing markets, but I cannot say that with certainty and that's only for the Torq and Quando models anyway. The Sprint and it's successors use a different motor with lower maximum output but higher torque (Yes, really!). The peak outputs are Torq = 576 watts, Sprint = 500 watts.

 

[Miles]

The actual power figures are far from the be all and end all. The Swizzbee 50C for Germany is capable of maintaining about 50 kmph with moderate effort and its motor is only listed as a Heinzmann DC 24V, 270W unit you can therfore see other things come into it. The Swiss Flyer is also available with different performance characteristics for different markets (and even in the same market).

Maybe they consider a human contribution of about 380W to be a "moderate effort"

 

[flecc]

Maybe they consider a human contribution of about 380W to be a "moderate effort"

Just before emergency admission to A & E? .

 

[flecc]

To complete my answers to your questions Leonardo, here's the definitive eZee motor information you wanted:

The Torq model is only fitted with a nominal 250W regardless of country.
However, the Sprint, Persuade, Cadence models come with nominal 350W motor
in the US. Better acceleration, hill climbing and maximum speed but with loss of range, especially when US customers use full ebike mode.

 

[Leonardo]

Thank you very much for your answers!

So I immagine that the different power of American Ezee Sprint etc depends upon a different motor and not a different controller, since they are the only one. Am I right Flecc?

 

[flecc]

Yes, it is a different motor Leonardo, according to an eZee source.

 

[rsscott]

The actual power figures are far from the be all and end all. The Swizzbee 50C for Germany is capable of maintaining about 50 kmph with moderate effort and its motor is only listed as a Heinzmann DC 24V, 270W unit you can therfore see other things come into it.

I'd be very surprised if a Swizzbee is able to maintain 50 kph which for us in blighty is 31 mph

From what I read about the Presteigne Electric Bike event earlier this year where a Swizzbee took part, the Torq and the Swizzbee were hardly ever more than a few tens of metres apart during the race.

When I contacted a chap on eBay who was selling one (who i'm guessing is the same person in the Presteigne race) he said he could sometimes reach 25mph on a flat which is the same as the eZee Torq on a good day with no wind.

cheers
Russ

 

[Flying Kiwi]

I'd be very surprised if a Swizzbee is able to maintain 50 kph which for us in blightly is 31 mph

I know what you mean, it seems very fast to me too. Here's my reference straight from their German website: swizzbee - FAQ just after half way down the page I'll make sure I stock up on Sauerkraut and Bratwurst

From what I read about the Presteigne Electric Bike event earlier this year where a Swizzbee took part, the Torq and the Swizzbee were hardly ever more than a few tens of metres apart during the race.

Certainly they were both well ahead at the end and were much faster than other production models (although the bike powered by a car starter motor was remarkable - until it broke). I suspect the Swizbee in that race may have had some restrictions imposed for the UK market (or the manufacturer has just uprated them since). There were loads of us Giant Twist riders there but I think David Henshaw rode the only eZee Torque - at least I dont remember any others, so I dont know if it was a stock standard version with all limiters on. I couldn't notice much about them because they were just blurs as they kept lapping me I was itching for a good steep hill to be sprung on us near the end to even things out but alas it didn't happen.

 

[JohnInStockie]

Thats interesting, I read with with keen interest about that race, and still cant understand how Dave Henshaw managed an extremely high average mph (wasnt it something like 23.6!). Had he deristricted his Torq (it was the one from the Paris run I believe), or does he holiday with Chris Boardman? It has to be one or the other, doesnt it?

Also, I believe that the man on the Swissbee must have thought he was the hot favourite, I mean if you had both a Torq (which I dont), and a Swissbee (which I dont either), which would you think would be the faster overall (as I honestly dont know), but impartially, I would have thought that the average Joe would be faster over all conditions for the same input power on the Swissbee (no offence Torq owners or anyone at 50 cycles)..

 

[Miles]

Here's what they say: "A speed of 50 kms per hour can be easily achieved, even with only a moderate expenditure of energy". I supposed they could argue that "achieved" isn't claiming that it could be maintained - hence the freedom to count on the peak power of the motor. Frankly, the style of the the FAQ is pretty evasive.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Here's what they say: "A speed of 50 kms per hour can be easily achieved, even with only a moderate expenditure of energy". I supposed they could argue that "achieved" isn't claiming that it could be maintained - hence the freedom to count on the peak power of the motor. Frankly, the style of the the FAQ is pretty evasive.

Manufacturers and event organisers would naturally be keen to present electric bikes as complying with local laws or those in countries where they may be sold. The UK motor power (200 W for bicycles) and maximum assisted speed of 15 mph are both extremely low. There is at least one dealer in London who claims to sell both Swizzbee and Swiss Flyer models so they are available here in some form. Clearly there is some latitude eg for 240 Watt motors in Giant Twists that do 17 mph under power but promoting or advertising anything beyond those limits, well you get the picture.

 

[rsscott]

Certainly they were both well ahead at the end and were much faster than other production models (although the bike powered by a car starter motor was remarkable - until it broke). I suspect the Swizbee in that race may have had some restrictions imposed for the UK market (or the manufacturer has just uprated them since). There were loads of us Giant Twist riders there but I think David Henshaw rode the only eZee Torque - at least I dont remember any others, so I dont know if it was a stock standard version with all limiters on. I couldn't notice much about them because they were just blurs as they kept lapping me I was itching for a good steep hill to be sprung on us near the end to even things out but alas it didn't happen.

I wonder if the Swizzbee in the race was just a standard model? Vita in London are the UK importers but I don't know if they restrict the bikes for our market. I suspect not, I bet they are supplied as they would be in their home country !

Ken from eZee Bike also took part and came third, I tgather he took the tactical option and David from AtoB went flat out!

cheers
Russ.

 

[Miles]

What I find curious is that the Swizzbee 50C seems to have eu Type Approval as a "Low Powered Moped". The maximum powered speed for this category is still 25 Km/h, but the maximum power rating is 1000 Watts. So, if it has a 270 Watt Heinzmann motor, what was the point? Or does it have approval as a "Moped - 2 wheeled vehicle"?

Also, it seems to have a direct drive to the rear hub - so how can they claim "Does the swizzbee 50C work on hills? Yes, and how - climbing hills is one of the best things" if the motor is geared to still give assist at 50 km/h?

Maybe I'm missing something....?

 

[rsscott]

Manufacturers and event organisers would naturally be keen to present electric bikes as complying with local laws or those in countries where they may be sold. The UK motor power (200 W for bicycles) and maximum assisted speed of 15 mph are both extremely low. There is at least one dealer in London who claims to sell both Swizzbee and Swiss Flyer models so they are available here in some form. Clearly there is some latitude eg for 240 Watt motors in Giant Twists that do 17 mph under power but promoting or advertising anything beyond those limits, well you get the picture.

I would imagine they are supplying these bikes for 'off-road' use ! As it stands the Swizzbee would be illegal to ride on the road with the 270W motor.

Clearly there is much confusion at the moment as we've all seen in other threads with the UK 200W and Euro 250W limits.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Also, it seems to have a direct drive to the rear hub - so how can they claim "Does the swizzbee 50C work on hills? Yes, and how - climbing hills is one of the best things" if the motor is geared to still give assist at 50 km/h?

Maybe I'm missing something....?

At the end of the Swizzbee manual it describes the rear hub as Swizzbee "Intelli-Variomat, patented transmission
system with continuously variable speed conversion" and although the pedal drive appears to go through derailleur gears, the electric drive by toothed belt goes into the other side of the quite large diameter hub so I'm not so sure whats in there or if the electric drive is indeed direct.

Also the manual includes this interesting part:

13.4. Biking style
Your biking style will also influence the cruising range. Contrary to other bikes with electric drives the pedalling of the biker will not increase the cruising range but the speed. Due to air resistance at a higher speed the cruising range will decrease. The one who pedals quicker will not go further but much faster.

To me that implies that this continuously variable transmission also has some say there as well.

Often people buying their "first of something" (eg a computer), buy a fairly basic no frills model but then when they find the shortcommings and realise what else is out there they make a more thought out purchase the next time. If I had a spare couple of grand I'd be much more interested in one of those than a standard hub motor driven bike (even a fast one) which definitely doesn't offer much flexibility for hills. I'd certainly like to get to the bottom of exactly how the Swizzbee works, perhaps an owner out there can elaborate, or get their butler to do so for them

 

[Flying Kiwi]

I would imagine they are supplying these bikes for 'off-road' use ! As it stands the Swizzbee would be illegal to ride on the road with the 270W motor.

Just as it would be illegal to ride a 240 Watt motor equipped standard Giant Twist on UK roads. They clearly show some latitude in interpretation of motor power. We really don't know if there's some sort of restrictor applied as I believe the eZee Torque has. The simple answer is for anyone considering purchasing a Swizbee get it in writing what the legalities of riding it on UK roads are. That way if these factors were ever scrutinised, the rider could claim they acted to the best of their knowledge and show a copy of the letter or certificate. I dont think it wouldn't totally rule them out of any legal responsibility, but it's a very good start.

Clearly there is much confusion at the moment as we've all seen in other threads with the UK 200W and Euro 250W limits.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Thanks for the reminder. I forgot about Ken from the eZee manufacturers at Presteign, also on a dealer or factory supplied Torque. It would have been "reassuring" to see how a rider with their own personal eZee Torque performed. Hopefully in 2007 there may be a similar event (with some steeper hills and personal eZee owners).

 

[rsscott]

Just as it would be illegal to ride a 240 Watt motor equipped standard Giant Twist on UK roads. They clearly show some latitude in interpretation of motor power. We really don't know if there's some sort of restrictor applied as I believe the eZee Torque has. The simple answer is for anyone considering purchasing a Swizbee get it in writing what the legalities of riding it on UK roads are. That way if these factors were ever scrutinised, the rider could claim they acted to the best of their knowledge and show a copy of the letter or certificate. I dont think it wouldn't totally rule them out of any legal responsibility, but it's a very good start.

Here is some information provided to me by the DfT:

Due to the UK not fully implementing European law.

(At present full implementation of all features of the EC Directive 2002/24/EC is not planned).

The rules outlined on the fact sheet attached indicate that at present:
An electrically assisted bicycle: Under 40kg, with a 200w or lower continuous power output, and a maximum assisted speed of 15 mph is exempt from UK registration (and thus type approval) and is treated as a cycle.

There is no need to build in a feature to cut power input when pedaling ceases.

However if power cutting when pedaling stops is included, a power of up to 250 w can be sold without type approval, in line with the European Directive. BUT in this case (power is between 200 and 250W) theoretically the vehicle should be registered with DVLA, fitted with a number plate, taxed and the owner should insure it and wear a helmet while riding it, because in the UK it is classified as a Moped. (However you may find that DVLA are unwilling to register the vehicle and will allow it onto the road without number plate and tax.)

So it may be possible to get DVLA to agree to a bike with <=250W being used on the road. The challenge would be to get it in writing!

 

[Miles]

At the end of the Swizzbee manual it describes the rear hub as Swizzbee "Intelli-Variomat, patented transmission
system with continuously variable speed conversion" and although the pedal drive appears to go through derailleur gears, the electric drive by toothed belt goes into the other side of the quite large diameter hub so I'm not so sure whats in there or if the electric drive is indeed direct.

Thanks, Flying Kiwi. I didn't spot the manual. Will take a look.

Miles