Nano motor

[allotmenteer]

Hello all

Before testing and (probably) buying a Torq, I've still got a few doubts. I've been doing some research and I wonder does anyone have any opinions on the nano-motor?

So far, I can see the following plus points:

1) It's a kit so I can keep my existing nice marin which I am keen to do.
2) It fits to a standard front fork (100mm) thus no frame bending involved
3) I can keep the 27 speed shimano drivetrain on my bike so if it can't cope with very steep hills then I can
3) It seems to be reasonably powerful
4) Apparently it freewheels very well so the bike would ride well without the motor running.
5) It's very light (2.3kg for the motor).

I've read lots about the Torq and there are lots of positives (which I won't list) but a few things seem to go against it

1) The price - though hopefully I'll get it through the cycle to work scheme. This should make it about £600-700 instead of £1100.
2) It only has one chainwheel at the front and you can't fit any more due to the battery being in the way.
3) The lowest gear (58") is not the best for hills. I'd be mortified if I had to get off and walk up a hill. My current unassisted marin has a gear range of 538%. Lowest gear inches 21.1, highest 113.5. I don't commonly use the very lowest gears (under 30 inches) but do use the 30-40 inch gears for steeper hills. I'm reasonably fit but when hill-climbing I do not commonly use the 6th gear on the middle chainring on my marin which is exactly what I'd have to do on the Torq I know some have changed the 52 tooth for a 44 tooth but this would reduce the high gears.
4) A Torq would have to find room in the shed(s) alongside the 4 bikes (2 each for me and the wife) in our household.

If anyone has knowledge of the nano motor then I'd love to hear your views on it.

Paul

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Hi Paul

I've read lots about the Torq and there are lots of positives (which I won't list) but a few things seem to go against it

1) The price - though hopefully I'll get it through the cycle to work scheme. This should make it about £600-700 instead of £1100.
2) It only has one chainwheel at the front and you can't fit any more due to the battery being in the way.
3) The lowest gear (58") is not the best for hills. I'd be mortified if I had to get off and walk up a hill. My current unassisted marin has a gear range of 538%. Lowest gear inches 21.1, highest 113.5. I don't commonly use the very lowest gears (under 30 inches) but do use the 30-40 inch gears for steeper hills. I'm reasonably fit but when hill-climbing I do not commonly use the 6th gear on the middle chainring on my marin which is exactly what I'd have to do on the Torq I know some have changed the 52 tooth for a 44 tooth but this would reduce the high gears.
4) A Torq would have to find room in the shed(s) alongside the 4 bikes (2 each for me and the wife) in our household.

On the subject of Lithium-ion Batteries
Originally Posted by ITSPETEINIT View Post

So if one loses 10% of capacity each year,

Disabuse me of my euphoria, someone.

Originally posted by Flecc
Peter
Sorry to oblige, but about 33% is forecasted as normal for capacity loss on Li-ion in one year for average usage in our climate. The only one I know of that's gone a full year has in fact lost just over 35%. Still perfectly usable of course, but indicating the capacity loss will be too severe to use beyond two years for many users, though those doing lots of short trips, shopping etc will not have a problem with that.

I think with the Torq you have more to consider than the three matters you have listed.
The Torq will not accept two chainwheels, never mind three. There is no way one can fit a front changer (the frame construction and geometry seem all wrong to me - although there was a posting on this Forum about a changer that "fitted to the bottome bracket": I have posted and asked for 'better particulars' but I am awaiting a reply. I changed my chainwheel for a 44 and the rear casette to 12-32: I had to change the rear mech too (it was a Sh. Sora that some thought 'might just be ok') to a Sh. Alvio. I've got a spread of gears from 38.5 to 102.66 (with an 11 top you could get 112). It's the best I can do because in the Torq there is not much power below 8 mph. I reasoned if 39 was the gear used by T de F riders in the mountains, it was just what I needed. It would mean you have a spread of 73 inches over 8 gears.
Of course you wont need that 21 inch bottom gear because you've got the motor putting out power if you can keep the bike moving at 10 mph or even a little more. I've had considerable mental anguish trying to formulate how much help I get from the Torq motor on hills (like 10%) to add to my own feeble efforts. I've even asked of the experts "how much power is needed to climb a 10% hill with a Torq and rider of 90 Kgs at 10 mph?": of course, there are too many variables and other factors to consider

My chief concern (having had trouble with the Li-ion battery - yet to be resolved) is flecc's statement as to the 30% decline of its capacity in the first year and, he suggests a further decline of the same in the second year. This for average usage. I did not envisage having to buy a new battery for some time with my more modest usage. On flat terrain I get 28 miles from one charge. That will decrease to 20 miles and after that a 'little ride in the country' will require a spare battery at £250. The cheaper NiMh option is not available (I must confirm that with 50Cycles) with the Torq.

Postings on these subjects you may have already found under "the price of Lithium batteries" and gearing for a Torq".

I must say I know nothing of the Nano but here is more for you to consider in its relationships to the Torq.
Peter
By the way, what were the positives? It would be nice to have another opinion.

 

[flecc]

No news on the Nano motor Paul, it's been asked about before but no-one has answered yet with experience of it. Can't help feeling there's a bit of hype there though, plenty of claims but details rather vague in places.

Some owners have changed the Torq's chainwheel to a 48 tooth, and at the same time changed the rear cassette to an 11 to 32 tooth, changing the mechanism at the same time since the Sora mechanism won't handle that range. That gives a healthy gear range and still an adequate top gear, but the motor stays high geared in the 28" wheel of course.

I've stayed with the 58" and can just cope with a very short 14%, medium 12% and as long as you like at 10%. I'm fit for my 71 years, but far from the strongest of riders, so that may help you judge. Try to get a trial ride on hills if you can though.
.

 

[flecc]

The capacity loss on Li-ion is an industry view, not my opinion, but the battery I quoted is bearing out the view on this with over the 30% lost. The commentators and industry also talk of two year life.
.
.

 

[coops]

Hi Paul

I haven't tested the nano-motor, but I did look into it for a similar conversion project for my MTB (aluminium frame, so cannot be "stretched") so in case its useful I'll answer your points with the thoughts/conclusions I came to :

1) My thinking too, but fixing ~5kg of battery to the frame seemed impractical, esp. for a less "strong" aluminium frame, and battery security when bike is locked also an issue.
2)Definitely a plus.
3)Ditto
4)Power seems quite good, but I think you'd find it (much?) less than your 350W (nominal, not peak?) hub kit.
5)Freewheel does seem good, but I've found that this doesn't necessarily indicate level of resistance to pedalling while the motor is running...
so ease of pedalling while motor is on or beyond motor speed limit is uncertain.
6)Yes, it is relatively light.

then re the Torq:

1) The price does seem high, but I think you get what you pay for... I'm not sure any other hub motor bike will allow the pedal-assisted speeds the Torq does (due to 5 above)?

2)& 3) Yes, gearing is high, but I'm hoping to keep 52T front & change rear from current 12-25 to 11-30 (& maybe keep the rear mech) or better 11-32/34 (change rear mech for e.g. alivio): gives a low gear for pedal starts & hills with motor support, gear spacing more suited to motor assist & keeps top 2 gears very high: 113" & even an "overdrive" 134" ! Spacing maybe a bit wide for pedal beyond 17-18mph if Torq is not derestricted, but not too bad.

4) can't help you there!

I forgot to say in your other thread that you should test the Torq is suited to your terrain: if its not too steep, it should be ok

P.S. I forgot to add - if you ask you may be able to buy Torq with NiMH, and for less than Li-ion.

I hope thats helpful.

Stuart.

 

[allotmenteer]

there was a posting on this Forum about a changer that "fitted to the bottome bracket": I have posted and asked for 'better particulars' but I am awaiting a reply.

Shimano do front derailleurs which attach to the bb, e.g.

Shimano LX F-Mech E-Type BB Mount M570 Derailleurs - MTB Front 12.99 GBP Free P & P to UK & Ireland, Cheap International Rates. Next day delivery from Europes Largest Online Bikeshop.

Does the Torq use a cartridge bottom bracket? If it doesn't then that is another negative for me. I'm not a fan of the old style BB / cranks. I like the fit and forget nature of cartridge BBs. My first mountain bike had the old style BB / cranks and I found after a few months the bearings were badly worn / loose and constantly made clicking noises when pedalling. Yes, I'm sure I should have been more careful and adjusted them regularly but that takes time and effort which is always in short supply

My chief concern (having had trouble with the Li-ion battery - yet to be resolved) is flecc's statement as to the 30% decline of its capacity in the first year and, he suggests a further decline of the same in the second year.

I'll second that! I doubt if I'll be going for a li-ion (of any chemistry) for my next bike / kit. I think I'll be going for Nimh.

By the way, what were the positives? It would be nice to have another opinion.

I like the delimiter and thus the high top speed.
The frame is designed to hold the battery so no messing around with rear trunk bags.
Ditto the wiring.
The Torq is light (though I think my marin is about 12Kg so if I can get an 8Kg kit I'll have a sub-20Kg bike!)
The power output of the motor is quite high (higher than the nano)
High capacity battery + good range.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Nano motor or no Nano?

Shimano do front derailleurs which attach to the bb, e.g.

Shimano LX F-Mech E-Type BB Mount M570 Derailleurs - MTB Front 12.99 GBP Free P & P to UK & Ireland, Cheap International Rates. Next day delivery from Europes Largest Online Bikeshop.

Thank you for that.

Does the Torq use a cartridge bottom bracket? If it doesn't then that is another negative for me. I'm not a fan of the old style BB / cranks. I like the fit and forget nature of cartridge BBs. My first mountain bike had the old style BB / cranks and I found after a few months the bearings were badly worn / loose and constantly made clicking noises when pedalling. Yes, I'm sure I should have been more careful and adjusted them regularly but that takes time and effort which is always in short supply

I don't think it does use a cartridge - looks like the old balls and races.


I'll second that! I doubt if I'll be going for a li-ion (of any chemistry) for my next bike / kit. I think I'll be going for Nimh.


I like the delimiter and thus the high top speed.
The frame is designed to hold the battery so no messing around with rear trunk bags.
Ditto the wiring.
The Torq is light (though I think my marin is about 12Kg so if I can get an 8Kg kit I'll have a sub-20Kg bike!)
The power output of the motor is quite high (higher than the nano)
High capacity battery + good range.

It needs all of its power (even more for me - 77 yo and 90 Kgs)
It gets its speed (and its range) from the very high gearing in the motor (at the expense of hill climbing ability).
Much depends on the riders weight, fitness and to how much effort he can put in.
As Flecc, and others, have said: Try it out on the typical, better still, actual terrain you propose to use it. Loughborough and Cambridge are not noted for their hills. The "hill" on the bridge over the canal at L'borough ia bout 20 yards long: I'm not so sure it's very steep either.
I think Flecc has invited you to try his on his HILLS - I'd take him up on that: from what he tells us they are GINORMOUS!

Peter

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Nano or no Nano?

Shimano do front derailleurs which attach to the bb, e.g.

Shimano LX F-Mech E-Type BB Mount M570 Derailleurs - MTB Front 12.99 GBP Free P & P to UK & Ireland, Cheap International Rates. Next day delivery from Europes Largest Online Bikeshop.

I've looked at that:if the Chain Stay Angle was Ok you could have a 44/32 set up. Either way, single chainwheel or double you are stuck with a 44 if you want to get the lowest gear down to 39 inches. 52 x 34 would give 43 inches. It may be time for a fitness test
* Dual sis front index shifting
* Total top-low Max, Capacity : 22T
* Top - Middle Min Capacity : 12T
* Top Gear Teeth : 44T
* Chain Stay Angle : 66-69 deg
* Weight: 183g

This is beginning to look feasible. I don't think the Torq will accept a TRIPLE. I offered one up with the original chainwheel off but the big chainwheel was way out for a feasible chain line. The chain line on the original is poor: it lines up with the space between the two smallest sprockets. That is with the chainwheel on the outside of the spider. In a double the small chainwheel will be on the inside of the spider: a somewhat better chain line.
Whilst I was making up my mind about a 44 chainwheel I did have both (52 and 44) on at the same time. My theory being that changing like they did in the T de F in 1900's would work. I would make up my mind before I went out if I was to approach my nemesis - on a long tour it would be worth it to make the change (by hand) at the bottom of the grainding climbs. In the event the 44 was sufficiently low with a 32 rear sprocket: that is, I had not the strength or the spin to climb a 10% hill, half a kilometer long.
When fitting the double one would bin the outer chain guard - but keeping the inner chain guard would be impossible with a chainwheel less than 39 teeth. A little trial and error would help. Keeping the inner would help keep the chain on in mechanically stressful moments.
I hope this helps - this is more difficult than choosing a motor car
Peter

 

[allotmenteer]

I forgot to mention that the BB mount front mech would need an E-Type BB. If the Torq will not take a cartridge BB then I don't think you'll be able to use the BB mount front mech.

I think it's worth asking 50 cycles about whether the Torq has a standard MTB frame which accepts cartridge BBs.

I don't think the Torq will accept a TRIPLE. I offered one up with the original chainwheel off but the big chainwheel was way out for a feasible chain line. The chain line on the original is poor: it lines up with the space between the two smallest sprockets.
Peter

That doesn't sound good. I believe for a good chainline you want it to line up with the middle of the rear sprocket cluster.

Rather than buy a Torq maybe I just need a Torq motor!

 

[coops]

Rather than buy a Torq maybe I just need a Torq motor!

... and then a light alloy frame with built-in 36V battery holder which locks the battery in place when switched off etc. etc....

I know what you mean though, and that thought has crossed my mind a few times

 

[flecc]

Rather than buy a Torq maybe I just need a Torq motor!

Mark at Team Hybrid had three of these motor + electronics sets when I spoke with him a little while ago, I don't know the price though, or whether they were the rear (Quando) or front (Torq) wheel type.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

What does 50 cycles publish on this point?

The capacity loss on Li-ion is an industry view, not my opinion, but the battery I quoted is bearing out the view on this with over the 30% lost. The commentators and industry also talk of two year life.
.
.

I am being more adventurous in searching and researching important details on e-bikes, Now the weather has turned against Countryside Touring.
On 50 Cycles web site there are some graphs published which show various characteristics of Lithium Ion batteries. This one is particularly interesting (Graph 2.3) because (if I am not mistaking its reporting) it show the "Typical Cycling decline in capacity" to be from 100% to 80% over 500 recharge cycles (is that full or partial) in a (shaky hand) straight line.

Electric bicycle batteries - what you need to know about Lithium ion batteries for electric bikes

I appreciate that what you have reported is at variance with this.

Now if that is 500 full charges and partial charging would only count as a fraction of a full charge (from empty or thereabouts) at a modest (for me) experience of 20 miles per full charge, that would be 10,000 miles.
This is the sort of "promise" that attracted me to the latest generation of e-bikes (together with the fact that it (the Torq) would climb 1 in 10 hills with ease, and 1 in 8 hills with a little effort, even 1 in 7 are possible). It now seems rather optimistic with a loss of 30% capacity in the first year. 250 cycles in the first year contributing 5000 miles of biking and 250 cycles in the second year contributing a further 70% of that mileage - 3500 giving a total of 8,500 miles. I'd settle for that if I can get a NiMh battery for the Torq to supplement it.

Electric bicycle batteries - what you need to know about Lithium ion batteries for electric bikes

Peter

 

[flecc]

I think that's the best way Peter, the two battery route. We can't blame anyone for quoting best conditions and can hardly expect them to quote the worst, and in this, those dealing with batteries are doing no more than anyone in any other field.

The big problem with batteries is the extreme range of possibilities depending on the very big range of possible usage experience. Someone travelling at fairly uninterrupted speeds in the flat eastern counties at around the motor maximum will be giving a battery a very easy time, so with care it could last a relatively long time.

By contrast, my usage on both very steep and less steep but very prolonged climbs works the motor near it's maximum torque point and the current drain is at maximum for very long periods gives the battery a hammering so it doesn't last long as a result. When someone buys a bike, they often won't even know where between those extremes they are until they start using it.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Life' not a rehearsal

When someone buys a bike, they often won't even know where between those extremes they are until they start using it.
.

We (royal) always need two bites of a cherry to 'get it right'.
Thank heaven there are only two contenders for 'best battery'.
Peter

PS 50Cycles are coming for my Chopper soon to sort out my problem - be it battery or bike