nano brompton

[barrycoll]

hi folks..

another newbie, taking my first steps....

anybody have much experience with the nano conversion for bromptons...after the rave reviews in A2B I have taken the plunge and ordered a motor from the electricwheelcompany, but as well as the steep cost (£750), the whole outfit seems very casual..
I was quoted 4/6 weeks, but that was the begining of July, and nobody ever phones back, or replies to emails, and I am now quite worried about my £200 deposit...
does anybody have any experience of these people, or the conversion that they do, or the long term reliability of the battery or the motor???
all a bit late to ask really, as I have committed myself with my deposit, but maybe others have a more positive experience

mant thanks barry c.

 

[flecc]

The people involved are totally honest Barry, and you need not worry about your money. However the service is very bad and the communications appalling. The man who created the nano Brompton, Tony Castles, is a great tech ideas man and a real enthusiast, but I could never see him as a business man, all his company involvements being similarly chaotic.

But as I say, if you had to demand your money back, I'm quite sure that would happen.
.

 

[barrycoll]

thanks for that quickie Flecc

would you recommend that I back out, and as well as the appalling communication, the lithium battery debate is also a bit scary...2 years max., and then another £395!
and there I was thinking of all the road tax I would save!

would it be better to hold back until there is some movement on battery chemistry, and so the possibility of more than 2 years??

cheers barry

 

[daniel.weck]

the lithium battery debate is also a bit scary...2 years max., and then another £395!
and there I was thinking of all the road tax I would save!

would it be better to hold back until there is some movement on battery chemistry, and so the possibility of more than 2 years??

Hello Barry, LifePo4 is a technology that claims about double the life time of regular Lithium Ion/Polymer/Manganese whatever (I'm not a battery expert, as you can see ). You can use the search function of this forum to find out more.

The official statement from the Nano team (now "Electric Wheel") is that on the Brompton, an equivalent (10Ah, I think) LifePo4 battery would be too large. They prefer using LiMnO4 batteries which are lighter.

Later down the road, you can always purchase another battery from any other shop, although you might need to DIY the connections and a proper safe case. For example, a lot of people seem use a trusty supplier from China, called Ping:

36V 10AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack

...but you don't have to. There are other sources in Europe, and probably some motor kit suppliers in the UK that are willing to sell only the batteries (with a bit of persuasion )

Batteries have always been the weak point of the e-bike / e-car argument. It's getting better and better though, but you're right, it's not cheap.

Cheers, Daniel

 

[daniel.weck]

The people involved are totally honest Barry, and you need not worry about your money.

I agree. Do not worry.

However the service is very bad and the communications appalling.

Tell me about it. Apparently they are more responsive via the phone.

The man who created the nano Brompton, Tony Castles, is a great tech ideas man and a real enthusiast, but I could never see him as a business man, all his company involvements being similarly chaotic.

And yet, the Electric Wheel Company have got a proper sales department now...apparently...not that I ever felt like there was one, when I was dealing with them...

But as I say, if you had to demand your money back, I'm quite sure that would happen.

The Nano kit costs more than DIY (as you would expect), but then it comes ready-to-use out-of-the-box, and it's still cheaper than the Sparticle from the Electric Transport Shop. They are 2 different products though, each with their own advantages and drawbacks.

I'd say: stick to the Nano, I'm sure you won't be disappointed...when you finally receive it

Kind regards, Daniel

 

[flecc]

I'd also say stick with it if you can bear to wait Barry, for it is a good product.

However, the li-manganese battery won't give much more than two years at most as you've noted, and that cost must be factored in as e-bike running costs.

As Daniel says, LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate) should have no problem lasting double that time at a similar price once totally reliable ones are assured, but it's early days yet in their final development for the mass market.
.

 

[john]

I was quoted 4/6 weeks, but that was the begining of July, and nobody ever phones back, or replies to emails, and I am now quite worried about my £200 deposit...

Hmm 6 weeks, I waited a year for my motor from them!

does anybody have any experience of these people, or the conversion that they do,

As others have said, very unresponsive and unrealistic in their estimates, but Tony Castles is great to talk to and certainly honest

or the long term reliability of the battery or the motor???

I had 3 motors from them (kit, not brompton) and none lasted more than 3 months (all different issues and replaced under warranty) but others seem to have had more luck.

 

[barrycoll]

dear folks..

thank you SO much for all your very useful info...

basically we have 2 Bromptons as well as 2 fairly classy suspension bikes, and the main use is weekly/fortnightly country rides of about 30/35 miles...we are 69/68 respectively, so any further is usually vetoed heavily by the 68 year old..rides are also given the thumbs down if its windy/hilly/chilly etc...
we take the bikes abroad once or twice a year, and even buy bikes in Goa in Feb. which for £40 new is great fun, and easy to sell on for half price..

so the main idea was that a nano brompton for my wife would solve all the hill/headwind/'just tired' problem for her, and allow me to do some new routes that might be too demanding other wise for her...but the bike would probably only be used weekly or fortnightly, and the battery life span with just occasional use is my great worry (altho somewhat allayed by all the comments)..
would such irregular use be an even bigger problem, or might it work in my favour???????????
ps..just a thought....would it be reasonable to try and purchase the nao conversion without a battery, and go to Mr Ping for a LiFePo of the same capacity??????????
thanks barry c.

 

[daniel.weck]

I think that if you keep the battery charged between 70% - 80% whilst unused, you will be fine. Just don't let the battery levels go down and stay there for a while, as Lithium technology doesn't like that. Cheers, Dan

 

[flecc]

Lithium manganese batteries do deteriorate regardless of use, so even one used very infrequently could be dead after about 2.5 years. In addition, it's essential that they are charged while standing idle at least every three months maximum, preferable every two months. Left beyond three months without charging tends to cause premature failure.

In the circumstances you describe, a Ping battery is far the better option since it could last at least four years and maybe much longer, since theory says that up to ten years is in prospect for these lithium phosphate batteries.

They will still need charging at times while out of use though, and are probably subject to that "at least every three months" rule. However, Li Ping can confirm that to you.
.

 

[eddieo]

In the circumstances you describe, a Ping battery is far the better option since it could last at least four years and maybe much longer, since theory says that up to ten years is in prospect for these lithium phosphate batteries.

When do you think the Lithium phosphate battery technology will be available in main stream bikes like Ezee & Wisper?

 

[barrycoll]

I am amazed how patient you guys are, as you seemingly are continuously having to re-invent the wheel, for us folk new to the world of e-products...and then finding the time, or rather 'making' the time to answer everybody so fully....

so may I pose another question that was sort of set by David Henshaw in A2B...he suggested that the power twist control be on the opposite side to 3 speed SA control, but if you transpose this to the other (left) side it will work in reverse, eg away from the cyclist...so I am wondering how this might in practise, as it is sort of counter-intuitive....
so would a thumb lever control be a better solution for the Brompton conversion??

so thanks for advice on a 70-80% charge as best practice...but how does one asses a 70/80% charge , as opposed to the Full Monty??

and thanks for the advice to go for a Ping battery as first option, but I imagine that this will not be an easy Brompton bike bag fit as offered by The Wheel co. and also need some sort of wiring type fettling...or am I wrong in this???

and which battery from the Ping range would you suggest for a wife who doesnt mind adding her effort to the ride??....I have told her that the earlier she uses up the 'juice' in the battery, the more effort will be in waiting a few miles down the road!

as for nano Bromptons specifically, there doesnt seem to be a section of the pedelec site that deals with these issues especially???..or am I missing something here....

once again guys, you really are doing great stuff, and there must be at least an MBE awaiting

barry

 

[flecc]

When do you think the Lithium phosphate battery technology will be available in main stream bikes like Ezee & Wisper?

Difficult to say Eddie, since it's a matter of consistency in manufacture. The technology is secure now, but e-bike makers have had too many failures of batteries from test production runs to be confident yet, and at least one battery manufacturer agrees with a leading e-bike manufacturer on this.

The difference with Li Ping is that as an individual provider he is able to produce them on a small scale with adequate testing, and the results to date are a testimony to his dedication.

I think they might reach the mainstream in about a year's time, but if they don't, they probably will about two years from now as customers of the present e-bike sales boom throughout Europe lose their temper over battery costs as their bike batteries reach the end of life.
.

 

[flecc]

I am amazed how patient you guys are

A pleasure to all of us Barry, problems are there to be answered.

so may I pose another question that was sort of set by David Henshaw in A2B...he suggested that the power twist control be on the opposite side to 3 speed SA control, but if you transpose this to the other (left) side it will work in reverse, eg away from the cyclist...so I am wondering how this might in practise, as it is sort of counter-intuitive....

Twistgrip throttles are made for both right and left, and I agree a left hand one is preferable. Both my e-bikes have left hand throttles twisting in the correct direction.

so thanks for advice on a 70-80% charge as best practice...but how does one asses a 70/80% charge , as opposed to the Full Monty??

Once you get used to an e-bike you know how long a full charge takes so can estimate when to cut the charge to roughly approximate a different period.

and thanks for the advice to go for a Ping battery as first option, but I imagine that this will not be an easy Brompton bike bag fit as offered by The Wheel co. and also need some sort of wiring type fettling...or am I wrong in this???

and which battery from the Ping range would you suggest for a wife who doesnt mind adding her effort to the ride??....I have told her that the earlier she uses up the 'juice' in the battery, the more effort will be in waiting a few miles down the road!

The connections aren't much of a problem and the forum will always help, since we have a number using these Ping batteries. I'm not using them myself at present, so I'll leave others to be specific about the battery capacity size. Certainly no need for more than 10 Ah in the circumstances you describe, and less is probably better to keep weight low.

as for nano Bromptons specifically, there doesnt seem to be a section of the pedelec site that deals with these issues especially???..or am I missing something here....

No, this forum is best for all these queries as it ensures everyone sees them. Some sub-forums have restrictions on access and even those accessible are often missed by people entering the site and coming straight into here.

once again guys, you really are doing great stuff, and there must be at least an MBE awaiting

Solving someone's problem is a far better reward than a gong.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

LifePo4

When do you think the Lithium phosphate battery technology will be available in main stream bikes like Ezee & Wisper?

Hi Eddie

We are of course watching phosphate batteries with a keen interest. One of the problems is that they weigh more and have a larger volume that Li Po batteries. We have fitted a Wisper 14A battery box with LiFePo4 cells and can only fit 10A. We will probably be bringing a LiFePo4 option out in 2010 but our range will reduce by at least 25%.

The latest technology we are researching will quadruple the range of our bikes and offer a minimum 10 year life under limited warrantee but the price for this 48V 40A battery would be a about £2,200.00 of course we are also looking at a battery 1/4 the size.

All the best David

 

[RobinC]

The latest technology we are researching will quadruple the range of our bikes and offer a minimum 10 year life under limited warrantee but the price for this 48V 40A battery would be a about £2,200.00 of course we are also looking at a battery 1/4 the size.

Will you have one of these at the Cycle Show next month, with a ball & chain attached perhaps?

Robin

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Ball and chain

Unfortunately not Robin, maybe next year if all goes well.

The technology is coming from silicone Vally and is being developed for computers and phones so that charges will last 4 times longer than at present and will not need replacing in the life tome of the equipment.

All the best David

 

[apshamlton]

For all those who are having problems with Nano customer service & supply etc there is another option for a Brompton electric kit using the Tonxgin motors.

Check out Freedom E-Bikes Freedom E-Bikes - Home

The entry price is lower £470, the kit is lighter and much easier to install and the batteries use advanced lithium nano-technology and are modular so you buy and carry only as much battery as you need.

Most importantly, we answer emails promptly and have stock so delivery times are reasonable.

 

[daniel.weck]

I'm been in touch with Andrew Hamilton (the owner of Freedom E-Bikes, quoted below) and I can vouch for his prompt communication. Andy is willing to talk about his product's technical drawbacks and advantages, which is refreshing.

I have not ordered anything from him though, as in the end I decided to go the DIY route. Therefore I cannot comment on delivery/product quality etc.

I'm glad there is some competition with the Nano/Electric-Wheel-Company, and somewhat with the Electric-Transport-Shop Sparticle as well (they use a different motor, but the Brompton-specific setup can be compared fairly based on general criteria).

Good luck with the sales Andy. I suggest you invest some of your time to post on this forum. I think early-adopters or e-bike experts on here would be concerned about the obscure type of battery you are proposing. If it's not LiMnO4 or LifePo4, then what is it ?

Cheers, Daniel

For all those who are having problems with Nano customer service & supply etc there is another option for a Brompton electric kit using the Tonxgin motors.

Check out Freedom E-Bikes Freedom E-Bikes - Home

The entry price is lower £470, the kit is lighter and much easier to install and the batteries use advanced lithium nano-technology and are modular so you buy and carry only as much battery as you need.

Most importantly, we answer emails promptly and have stock so delivery times are reasonable.

 

[daniel.weck]

Good luck with the sales Andy. I suggest you invest some of your time to post on this forum. I think early-adopters or e-bike experts on here would be concerned about the obscure type of battery you are proposing. If it's not LiMnO4 or LifePo4, then what is it ?

Hi again Andy,

from the photos on your website, it's difficult to tell but it looks like the black Brompton has got a front wheel laced into a 1-cross or 2-cross pattern, whereas the red Brompton (which is shown on most of the pictures) has got spokes laced into a direct/radial pattern. This makes quite a difference to the wheel strength, especially due to the torque generated by the motor. Maybe the photos are from prototypes, so how do you build the wheel in you current product ?

Many thanks, Daniel