Nano batteries with Tongxin

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
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Nrg I have only used up capacity untill the resting voltage is around 3.73v
Of which time I always think that the cells are pretty much used up.

What additional capacity have you used when you get past 3.7?
Obviously when discharging there is voltage say but nothing more than 3.6 per cell.

I know lipoly can go to 3v per cell as an absolute minimum. Always weary of dropping them past the 3.7 resting
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
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Hi Scott, 3.6/7v resting yes but under load I set my BM-6 to 3.2v as the minimum. Its not caused me an issue todate...and just when I try to find the curves I was referring to....I cant :(

Edit: LVC is a moving target though and perhaps I push mine a little hard and maybe 3.4 would be more wise and cover more manufacturers. The Turnigys seem to be very good for the money and stay in balance well and as capacity on a bike is limited I like to get as much out of them as possible.
 
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Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
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They do seem to balance fine and I generally charge to 4.18 per cell and there all inline.
Its just reading forums for definitive lowest levels of discharge of resting cells there's always a lot of conflicting info.
I still try to not use all the capacity just to give the cells an easier time!

Thinking of buying another pair of 6s to extend range to 30ish miles.
 

vhfman

Pedelecer
Oct 5, 2008
144
0
Interesting. I note the BM-6 is no good if you use A123 cells as the low voltage limit only goes down to 3.0v whereas the A123 cells go down to 2.0.

Jerry the BM6 are Ok with A123 and other LiFePo4 cells like the Headway. They can be set down to 2V LVC alarm, at least the version 3.0 examples that I use work down to 2V although I set mine to an LVC of 2.75V which is around the point that the A123 cells take a dive in performance.
The advantage of the CellLog 8 is it can display the value of all the cells simultaneously, where the BM6 can only display a single cell at any one time as it scans each individual cell of the battery. But I have found the BM6 more reliable compared to the CellLog 8S/M as I’ve had a couple with intermittent displays.

Chris
 

Dadplus2

Pedelecer
May 31, 2010
33
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Exeter, United Kingdom
I've just done 4 miles and tested the batteries and they are showing 3.9v. Better news, I've also just ordered the cellog 8m so looking forward to getting that.

As an aside I've had a fair amount of interest in this bike and a couple of requests to build similar lightweight machines. I may be doing some more.
 

amigafan2003

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 12, 2011
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Sounds good. I did 9 miles on my pack and the cells went to 3.83v. Another 9 miles later and they only dropped to 3.73v. Look at some of the lipo discharge graphs - voltage drops fairly consistently for the first half of the capacity then it really levels out for the last half, so you barely see any voltage change.



You can see 3.8v is about 50% discharged. 3.6v so only 0.2v covers the next 30/40% of capacity

3.9v is only 30% discharged so I estimate your pack is good for approx 10 miles - sounds like you've got plenty of range in those batteries.
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
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I want to just add a note of caution here mainly if you are thinking of building an ebike for a general user and encouraging them to use lipos as a power source.

Whilst I am well aware that many of you are more than capable of charging and using Lipos safely, please be aware that these cells are not for your average Joe, non DIY ebike user.

They can be pretty dangerous/present a fire hazard if not treated with respect.

Maybe I am being over cautious but I felt a note of caution would not go amiss.

Regards

Jerry
 
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amigafan2003

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 12, 2011
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That's a good point - I'd never build something that uses lipos for someone else.

In fact, I wouldn't build a bike for someone else full stop - tell them to do the research themselves and build it themselves or tell them to buy an off the shelf bike.

Having built things like PC's for friends and relatives it's not worth the hassle - they treat you like a 24/7 support line.
 

Scottyf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 2, 2011
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Certainly true. But it should not be discounted if you like tinkering about with various setups.

Like I noted above I do miss some ease of use and portability with a pre-made battery and charger + BMS as it negates the need to worry about any of the hazards.

But you are right its not for the faint hearted and you'll need a few basic electronic tools and building skills required.


I was a complete novice to anything electrical untill i came onto this forum on Feb this year.
9 months later and I think I have virtually got my head round the basics and the terminology.
I'm now trying to work out what each component in the controller now does and why...

But I equally don't think people should be to scared of Lipo. Ok your using the cells in a very raw format with huge amps to play with but Kids play with RC gear and as long as your not rough with it, overcharge it, over discharge it or puncture it then most people wil lbe ok.

Its jsut making sure all your connections are good and that you don't mistakenly do something silly.

If in doubt do what I do and keep a large 9 litre water fire extinguisher near...
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Again I'm not convinced about all the folkllore concerning lipos. I've heard of loads of people that let their lipos go down too far without catching fire when they charge them. Most chargers are current limited. which helps. I've also seen some explode when they were being charged on a charger without HVC. So, everybody is right to be cautious.

I'm still convinced that the biggest risk is from short circuits. Each time you connect and disconnect them and remove them from your bike, there's a chance that the wires can get pulled or chafed, or, if they're not properly supported/protected when riding, the wires can wear through especially the thin balance wires. Once the bare metal touches, it's game over. I've heard of many (mainly in aeroplanes) that spontaneously caught fire, which I'm sure is because of shorts, especially after a few bumpy landings. To help prevent the possibility of a short circuit, I lay all the wires flat against each cell pack and tape them so that there isn't any direct tension on the solder joints and they can't rub against each other. Then I connect the cell packs together making sure that all the wires lay flat on the outside and then I tape them again. If you're going to put them in a pannier, it would be smart to give extra protection. Mine banged against a rack fixing screw, which wore through the pannier, the tape , the heatshrink and the pouch to expose the stuff inside the cell and I was lucky - no fire - just a compromised cell pack. I think I've learned from my near miss.

Like my headmaster said to me once, "Clever people learn from other people's mistakes; average people learn from their own mistakes; thickos never learn: Let's hope that you're in the second category, because it's obvious you're not in the first otherwise you wouldn't be here!". So, all you clever people can learn from the mistakes of a not so clever person.
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
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Cambridge, UK
Ok now the public health warnings are out the way :p

Getting back on topic this little monitor/alarm looks interesting. Cheap and small enought to be left perm on my packs. It seems support both Lipo and LiFe packs ?

Lipo battery Voltage Indicator voltmeter monitor Alarm | eBay




I am not sure if the display cycles through each cell voltage or displays the total pack voltage ?

I have emailed the seller.

Regards

Jerry
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I have a couple of those. They do what they say. The alarm's quite loud, but high pitched. In the end I decided that it was a bit complicated to keep connecting/disconnecting them for charging . Now I monitor overall battery voltage with a wattmeter, which works for me. I always balance charge my lipos and check the cell voltage before starting to charge, and everything is always normal. I try to not go below 37v o my 36v pack and 45v o my 44v packs. I theory it's possible to have a problem o one cell, but I think I'd notice something unusual on the meter like the time I forgot to charge half the pack.
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
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Cambridge, UK
As I have said the A123 packs are less prone to going out of balance. I therefore only have to split the packs when balance/charging. Most the time they are not split and can be charged simply with the two series 6s1p packs joined together using a cheap generic 36v, 1.6amp charger.

Probably a monitor attached continously is over kill and I will now just balance them once a month or so.

Regards

Jerry
 
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amigafan2003

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 12, 2011
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I wouldn't leave it on the packs permenantly - even a small 10mah amp draw can draina 5000mah pack in 20 days.
 

Scottyf

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Feb 2, 2011
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I'm intrigued buy a small charger and just charging the packs in work if I could simply buy a 50.2v charger at say a really low amperage and let it tickover during the day to give me a little bit more capacity.

I'm always a bit worried though becasue there's nothing telling the charger that a few of the cells may not be in balance. (Although i've never had any cells any more than 0.02v out)
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
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Cambridge, UK
Scott I have two cheap generic chargers (36v,1.6amps) like these for my A123 6s1p packs connected in series



The above picture shows an early one before I strapped the two together and put a 15Amp fuse in line.

I have a charger at home and one at work. I am not sure if this would work for Lipos in their joined up full pack configuration though. I will leave others to comment who use lipos?

The A123 cells can go months using this without balancing though it appears that mine had got out of balance after nearly two years. I plan to now balance them using the charger below every few months or so.
Obviously when I use this one I have to split the full pack down into its two 6s1p components.



Again an early picture before I had taped it all up.

Looking again I think the poster NRG charges Lipos in their joined up full pack config based on the picture he posted on my battery build thread.





Regards

Jerry
 
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NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
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Hi Jerry, yes thats an early configuration. I still charge all cells in series with a pair of modified Meanwell power supplies and now I use powerpole connectors throughout and balance with battery medics.