My Torq Story

[ITSPETEINIT]

Torq's problems

hi i own 2 sprints and a torque ,the sprints are great ,the torque i got carried away with what i would call marketing sh-peal when it came out concerning its speed and new lithium batts "Tell me about it!" .I have none of the problems described,would i buy another one NO why £250 for a rubbish battery that only lasts 12 months,a battery which cuts off power when put under pressure,50 cycles need to reduce there lithium prices by about fifty per cent to make them viable or reintroduce m/hydride batts ,it seems only some electric bikes have difficulty in obtaining batts, is it a marketing ploy.1300m/hydride would be a step forward,until then my torque will be left to rot or get sold.

Yes! I have 2 Sprints and had a Torq. I am surprised you have NONE of the problems described: the postings on the Forum and comments by our excellent expert Guru, Flecc, suggested that the problems were experienced almost universally. But then he did say that those Forum members who had Torqs were quite a small fraction of the total ownership population. Truth may be that many may have suffered in silence for the other benefits that the Torq brought, but sadly, not for me. The 'hand' that nature dealt me was not compatible with the Torq's finer attributes.
It is reassuring to see other owner's comments on Lithium batteries (although comments on Lithium are not hard to come by on this Forum).
It is not the way to go about solving a problem really, but I now have three Lithium Batteries so that I can keep their discharge levels at or below 50% on extended journeys of 30 miles or so. It is something of a weight to carry but I have adapted 2 Carradice panniers so that the 2 spare ones can be carried upright (rather than on the carrier top) distributing their weight evenly in a way that does not exaggerate the effect on the bike's centre of gravity.
Peter

 

[urstu]

Just a quick reply on the Sprints, mine have m/hydride batts and seem to suite the sprints fine although its not the case with the Torque which seems to like the extra voltage supplied by the lithium battery, and feels a bit flat when used with m/hydride <needs Flecc's battery mod>.

 

[flecc]

The Torq problems aren't all universal.

The Li-ion cutout problems aren't experienced by those in flatter areas, and those owners also get longer lives in consequence. (battery that is, though they may also live longer without the worry )

Likewise, the high rider gearing doesn't worry riders in flatter areas, or the riders of greater cycling ability who the machine is really intended for, and it didn't particularly worry me for my routine hill climbing up to 14%. It just cut out a couple of leisure routes for me.

The front brake judder is far from universal, indeed I've never experienced it on my Torq/T bike, though I did for a while on the Quando but with a different cause. It seems to me that only a fairly small minority suffer it. Brake judder also occurs quite widely on ordinary bikes and has been a fact of cycle trade life since the introduction of alloy rims and soft compound brake pads/blocks some decades ago. It was almost entirely unknown with steel rims and hard brake blocks.

The harsh front ride is universal but different riders perceive it differently. Anyone who's ridden race style bikes with skinny high pressure tyres will not be affected by it much since a hard ride is a fact of life with the tiny section 120 lb pressure tyres they have experience of. Conversely, the many who've usually only ridden low pressure fat tyre sections, often on MTBs and the like, and sometimes with suspension, can be really shocked by the Torq's front ride hardness. As we've seen in the forum, those who suffer RSI or other wrist medical conditions are obviously extra sensitive to it. It didn't worry me, but I swapped the motor to the rear to see how much difference it would make. It did make a difference, but since it didn't worry me I threw away much of the gain in favour of the performance advantage of a skinny high pressure front tyre. Many wouldn't do that of course.

The fairly weak rear roller brake is universal, but again is perceived in different ways. Those used to this type of brake who use the rear brake just for routine slowing and add the front for more urgent stopping needs aren't worried by it, and that included me. I changed mine only in the T bike version to cope with it's additional performance. Heavy riders notice this rear brake more since it's already close to it's design limit of 100 kilos gross with a moderate 70 kilo rider.

P.S. I see my post has crossed with Scott's again. They aren't connected in any way, I'm just a slow typist!

 

[coops]

...on the Sprints, mine have m/hydride batts and seem to suite the sprints fine

Thanks for the clarification urstu - I didn't realise you had NiMH batteries with your Sprints.

I'm considering the Torq radical battery mod myself as an idea for Ezee: how about producing special Torq/general "hill boost" NiMH batteries after flecc's design?

 

[flecc]

I'm considering the Torq radical battery mod myself as an idea for Ezee: how about producing special Torq/general "hill boost" NiMH batteries after flecc's design?

There's a legality issue Stuart, it boosts the overall power and makes it potentially illegal even when restricted, though a controller change could take care of that. Not so much point now with the F series available.

If you do go ahead with it, the Ansmann button cells from batteryforce.co.uk are ok, but the tagged ones from Eurobattery are definitely not and can fail in a dramatic fashion.
.

 

[urstu]

I was not critizing 50 cycles for making a profit , and i have found you a very good firm to deal with,what i fail to understand is the price hike from£900 to£1500 from the Sprint to the Forte just by adding a crossbar to a Chinese frame and some switchgear, it does not add up.

 

[coops]

Thanks as always for your tips, flecc . Good point on the legality - I hadn't thought of that, blinking red tape .

An "oversized" Ezee battery case for customers' own Ezee battery mods might be a cheaper idea then, but I suppose demand isn't really there (though, with the U.S. market for Ezee bikes on the up, who knows... ): I think I just don't relish cutting my case open to extend it... still, I'm drifting well off-topic, so... for now its extra legpower & steep hill avoidance measures .

 

[flecc]

I was not critizing 50 cycles for making a profit , and i have found you a very good firm to deal with,what i fail to understand is the price hike from£900 to£1500 from the Sprint to the Forte just by adding a crossbar to a Chinese frame and some switchgear, it does not add up.

Very wrong prices Urstu.

It's not £900 to £1500

It's £995 to £1345, and currently with a promotional code, to £1295.

So £300 difference, not £600 as you said, which was a huge exaggeration.
.

 

[Cyclezee]

50cycles have arranged to look at my Torq and hopefully resolve the problems I have. I can't take it in for 2 weeks, but will feedback the results.
I understand Scott is off sick today hope it isn't due to 'My Torq Story'!

Once my warranty/guarantee period is up I would like to try and copy Flecc's Torq Radical. I wonder how much someone would charge to do this? Could/would 50cycles do this with Flecc's input and produce a Flecc Special to order?
I might be tempted to DIY it following Flecc's write up. Obviously cost is a major considerstion didn't reveal what it cost him in time and materials. Would be nice to know Fleccie?

John

 

[urstu]

Sorry about the generalization about prices ,my Sprint was only£925 but considering i can go to Halfords and buy a complete mountain bike for under£100 i still fail to see how it costs even £300 to add a cross bar on a bike when done by a small addaptable Chinese company.On a more serious note i would have more faith in your lithium batts if you had faith in them ,we get a lousy 6month warranty the yanks get 12monthes maybe they are not the pushovers we are, Sparta amongst others are offering a 2yr warranty.

 

[jac]

hi i would also like to say i dont understand why we have to pay £1200 for good ebike but in japan you get electric bike with panasonic drive lithium battery for under £600 also yamaha bikes for simmilar money maybe thats why they sell hundreds of thousand of ebikes and we sell thousands

jim

 

[flecc]

50cycles have arranged to look at my Torq and hopefully resolve the problems I have. I can't take it in for 2 weeks, but will feedback the results.
I understand Scott is off sick today hope it isn't due to 'My Torq Story'!

Once my warranty/guarantee period is up I would like to try and copy Flecc's Torq Radical. I wonder how much someone would charge to do this? Could/would 50cycles do this with Flecc's input and produce a Flecc Special to order?
I might be tempted to DIY it following Flecc's write up. Obviously cost is a major considerstion didn't reveal what it cost him in time and materials. Would be nice to know Fleccie?

John

Cost was very small John, a pair of Marathon Plus tyres discounted to £40, a multi sprocket freewheel at £9.99, an Acera rear mechanism at £14.99, a twistgrip gear changer at £8.95, a hub to scavenge a freewheel thread from at anything from £15 to infinity, rear V brake at around £20, new chain and an assortments of odds and ends for no more than £30. Say as little as £140.

But as I said to Stuart when he thought of doing the same, easier said than done, and there are some risky procedures involved which no-one would commercially undertake. For example, running the Torq motor flat out with the bike upside down to use it as a capstan lathe, while using an angle grinder to accurately grind off the steel bearing housing extension and part of the alloy shell, and driving the bearing inward at the same time after previously removing an internal washer from the motor. Then there's making the spindle strengthening adapter

These milling operations could be done more delicately by an extensively equipped engineering company instead, but they'd want engineering drawings first and charge the earth for doing the job, and without being electrically skilled your rotor assembly and lead out wiring would be at considerable risk. In fact it would be as cheap to start with a new Quando motor with it's longer spindle. I don't know how much that would cost, but probably around about £300 as a spare. Then add the spindle strengthening adapter cost for manufacture, a freewheel thread converter made by a specialist company like Highpath for about £100, plus the costs of an engineer who was both electrically and cycle conversant to complete the assembly, wheel offsetting etc. Add the previous £140 and you have a total of around £800 minimum including the skilled labour, plus a Torq, so £2000 new.

Not much point when a Forza with similar performance costs £1400, less whatever an existing Torq is sold for. This emphasizes that it's only practical for someone who has the necessary skills, the appropriate equipment, and the willingness to take potentially costly risks to do it on a budget.
.

 

[jac]

hi i was not talking or complaing about your bikes but the bikes i am talking about are made by national bicycle industrial and are made in japan not imported this company is part of matsushita so panasonic

jim

 

[jac]

hi again i forgot to add if you google yamaha pas or national bicycle industrial you can see what i am talking about

jim

 

[flecc]

To Urstu and Jac

Lots of answers there, and you are both falling into the trap of over simplification as you'll see. With the F series, it's not a case of adding a crossbar, look at the weights of Torq and Sprint and you'll see that the frames are very different, and that is visually clear too. The cost of that frame type appears in the Torq also.

Some of the components on the F series are more expensive, the gear systems, disc brake etc being examples, and those differences can be large.

Then there's the market realities I repeatedly have to explain. You can't expect to buy a bike at the cost of it's manufacture at the Chinese factory. To that add the manufacturer's margin, packaging, insurance, transport to the UK, import duty, the importer's operating costs and margin, then 17.5% VAT, and what you end up with bears no relation to the original cost of manufacture.

If you add £50 to the cost of making a bike in the Orient with an added feature, that £50 also expands in exactly the same way.

Then there's the fact that the banking and commercial system worldwide operates on a percentage basis. The percentage margin a company has to add to a product at a higher price is of necessity a larger amount of money than on a cheaper product. This creates the law of diminishing returns.

A Jaguar X type which is essentially a tarted up Mondeo is not good value for money when benefit analysed, due to that law, the increased monetary margins for all in the chain sees to that, those in the chain being the manufacturer, vatman and dealer. Likewise a £60,000 Mercedes is not worth £44,000 more than a £16000 Mondeo in terms of actual benefits received. This is just as true for dearer e-bikes like the F series of course.

It's also important to compare like with like, the Japanese Panasonic unit in Japan is not the same as the one seen on some of the bikes using similar at this end. Most of ours now are a higher powered version with a larger capacity battery, the Japanese one being severely limited by Japanese law.

The need to offer longer warranties in the USA results from their consumer background which makes legal action easier on consumer issues. Everything over there gets longer warranties, Sony's being much longer there than here for their electronic products for example. The costs of supporting warranties are factored in by the manufacturer/importer in any market, so no-one is necessarily getting something for nothing.

So as I implied at the beginning, things aren't as simple as they might superficially seem.

P.S. I see my slow typing was beaten by 50cycles again, hence some duplication in my reply.
.

 

[jac]

hi flecc i know it cost al lot to import stuff but 50cycles were selling the panasonic bike for i think £1200 it sells there for well under 600 i think if those bike were built and sold here for simmilar money a lot more would have been sold i dont speak or read japanese but i would be surprised if power unit is very different maybe the chips are that controll the power any anyone interested can look on ƒpƒiƒ\ƒjƒbƒN@ƒTƒCƒNƒ‹ƒeƒbƒNŠ”Ž®‰ïŽÐ

jim

 

[urstu]

i hear what you are saying about having to factor in extendended warranties by law in the u s a but NCYE WHEELS seem to manage it and for a price of £1077 pounds ,but i appreciate you may have to pay a state tax on top of that. that aside everyone seems to to have dodged the issue of our lousy six month warranty and i have my doubts whether this ,would stand up in consumer law ,i refer to goods being fit for purpose they were made.

 

[jac]

hi any one interested in looking at panasonic would have to google panabyc
dont know why it did not print before just a small point nissan and honda both seem very happy to manufacture here also lots of people are very happy to come and live and work here

jim

 

[urstu]

Opinion 50/cycles

Nice to hear an opinion on bats from the horses mouth as it were,it is the first time i have heard you voice an opinion on bats ,i take it you were taking of lithium as iknow m/hydride will last the distance having done 2500 miles on my present one and although down on capacity is still going strong ,is it your opinion that i should get the same sort out millage out of the lithium batt if treated correctley,or would you admit after all the hype these batts were maybe a step backwards.<,I'll be very surprised if you answer this>.

 

[prState]

There's a legality issue Stuart, it boosts the overall power and makes it potentially illegal even when restricted, though a controller change could take care of that. Not so much point now with the F series available..

I wouldn't want a company to break any law. But on the other hand, it's perfectly legal to sell things where I live that are illegal to actually use on a vehicle. (let's say on a car for instance, illegal exhaust (too noisty) or something involving generation x (or y) those neon lights).

Electric bikes with aftermarket support -- that's all I ask as a would-be rebel.


So, on topic, this thread is selling me on the F series and off the Torq which I had weighed fairly evenly up to now with pro or cons.