My Tongxin kit bike
- Thread starter frank9755
- Start date
In the EU countries its number 3, the others being illegal, though for the moment it's still legal to use the other two in Britain, where number 1 is the most popular now, followed by number 3. Number 2 is dying out, not many bikes use it now.
The motors are generally Hall effect types, number two generally having 3 wires into it. Numbers 1 and 3 normally have 8 wires, three for motor current into the coils, and five for the sensors.
In most Hall effect motors, there are Hall sensors (a magnetically sensitive form of transistor) in the motor, and they "read" the position of the motor's magnets and feed back to the controller the position that the rotor of the motor is in. From that the controller knows which phase coil to send the current to for the motor to start turning in the correct direction. Tongxin have a variant which works with three wires like number 1 above, I understand this works by sensing feedback direct from the motor windings.
As the motor turns, the Hall sensors feed back a continuous stream of positional information, enabling the controller to maintain the stream of current pulses to the coils in correct sequence.
The Hall effect motor's advantage is that the period of sending current can be maximised by the controller, not tied to the momentary inefficient contact of a carbon brush on a rotating commutator, so the Hall motor potentially has a higher performance and in particular, wider power/torque bands.
Hall was the man who found how to utilise this magnetic effect, hence the capitalised name.
.
The motors are generally Hall effect types, number two generally having 3 wires into it. Numbers 1 and 3 normally have 8 wires, three for motor current into the coils, and five for the sensors.
In most Hall effect motors, there are Hall sensors (a magnetically sensitive form of transistor) in the motor, and they "read" the position of the motor's magnets and feed back to the controller the position that the rotor of the motor is in. From that the controller knows which phase coil to send the current to for the motor to start turning in the correct direction. Tongxin have a variant which works with three wires like number 1 above, I understand this works by sensing feedback direct from the motor windings.
As the motor turns, the Hall sensors feed back a continuous stream of positional information, enabling the controller to maintain the stream of current pulses to the coils in correct sequence.
The Hall effect motor's advantage is that the period of sending current can be maximised by the controller, not tied to the momentary inefficient contact of a carbon brush on a rotating commutator, so the Hall motor potentially has a higher performance and in particular, wider power/torque bands.
Hall was the man who found how to utilise this magnetic effect, hence the capitalised name.
.
Last edited:
Undate on Frank's Tongxin controller
Frank sent me his controller to check it out.
The controller was able to run my motor BUT only if I spin the motor by hand first (either direction). It seems that the controller has developed a fault in the circuit used to start the motor turning (not very practical when you have a freewheel, rolling backwards being the only way to turn the motor).
At least that mystery is now solved.
Frank sent me his controller to check it out.
The controller was able to run my motor BUT only if I spin the motor by hand first (either direction). It seems that the controller has developed a fault in the circuit used to start the motor turning (not very practical when you have a freewheel, rolling backwards being the only way to turn the motor).
At least that mystery is now solved.
Thanks again, John, for doing this. Controller failure was always the most likely cause but confirming it is useful.
I have to say that the reports of better reliability regarding the later batches of Tongxin controllers from both Mark at Cytronex and Tony Castles is making it quite tempting to have another go with this set-up. I'll see if I get some spare time over the summer!
Frank
I have to say that the reports of better reliability regarding the later batches of Tongxin controllers from both Mark at Cytronex and Tony Castles is making it quite tempting to have another go with this set-up. I'll see if I get some spare time over the summer!
Frank
I've got my Tongxin bike working again, and it goes beautifully!
To recap, this bike performed excellently, but went through two Tongxin controllers in 200 miles so I gave up and took it apart.
Because the Tongxin is the only motor in widespread electric bike use that does not use Hall sensors, other controllers don't work on it. At the beginning of the year there were no alternatives available to Tongxin's own controller. However a few months ago, I came across an alternative (discovered by Brett White, aka Solarbbq, the Australian chap who used to sell Tongxins but fell out with them due to reliability issues).
It's taken me 4 months to get it. I ordered it back in June; but the wrong one got sent out, then there were delays getting things out of China during the Olympics, but finally it came. I tested it last weekend and have spent today fitting it back together, just been out for a test ride, and it is brilliant!
I've got a different throttle set-up, which I think works very well. I'll post more when I've done a few more test rides and got the rough edges smoothed off.
Frank
To recap, this bike performed excellently, but went through two Tongxin controllers in 200 miles so I gave up and took it apart.
Because the Tongxin is the only motor in widespread electric bike use that does not use Hall sensors, other controllers don't work on it. At the beginning of the year there were no alternatives available to Tongxin's own controller. However a few months ago, I came across an alternative (discovered by Brett White, aka Solarbbq, the Australian chap who used to sell Tongxins but fell out with them due to reliability issues).
It's taken me 4 months to get it. I ordered it back in June; but the wrong one got sent out, then there were delays getting things out of China during the Olympics, but finally it came. I tested it last weekend and have spent today fitting it back together, just been out for a test ride, and it is brilliant!
I've got a different throttle set-up, which I think works very well. I'll post more when I've done a few more test rides and got the rough edges smoothed off.
Frank
C
Cyclezee
Guest
Well done Frank, that is good news
I really admired your original efforts and remember thinking how good the bike looked.
What battery are you using and have you have you made any changes to the original spec.
J hn
I really admired your original efforts and remember thinking how good the bike looked.What battery are you using and have you have you made any changes to the original spec.
J
hnThanks, John
The battery is a 10Ah Ping LiFePO4. It worked well on my 5 mile test run.
The basic spec is the same as before with a 270rpm motor overgeared in a 700c wheel. The only thing that is different is the controller. The Tongxin one was marked 15A and my new one is marked 18A. I don't know if that is going to mean a little more torque for hill-climbing, or not! I can say that it coped very well with the only hill that I tried it on - accelerating up a steep bit nicely.
It's really designed for the flat, though, with the motor gearing and also rider gearing with a top gear of 118" (I was lucky enough to get an 11-34 megarange freewheel just before they disappeared from the market). I spend a lot of time in that, at a relatively high cadence, on straight sections. I've not got a computer fitted yet so not sure how fast it is going but it is certainly quick!
I'll post more, on things including range and my throttle set up, when I've tested it properly. I don't expect to get more than 20 miles if used flat out, but I think my throttle might allow me to do a bit more than that!
Frank
The battery is a 10Ah Ping LiFePO4. It worked well on my 5 mile test run.
The basic spec is the same as before with a 270rpm motor overgeared in a 700c wheel. The only thing that is different is the controller. The Tongxin one was marked 15A and my new one is marked 18A. I don't know if that is going to mean a little more torque for hill-climbing, or not! I can say that it coped very well with the only hill that I tried it on - accelerating up a steep bit nicely.
It's really designed for the flat, though, with the motor gearing and also rider gearing with a top gear of 118" (I was lucky enough to get an 11-34 megarange freewheel just before they disappeared from the market). I spend a lot of time in that, at a relatively high cadence, on straight sections. I've not got a computer fitted yet so not sure how fast it is going but it is certainly quick!
I'll post more, on things including range and my throttle set up, when I've tested it properly. I don't expect to get more than 20 miles if used flat out, but I think my throttle might allow me to do a bit more than that!
Frank
I think the Tongxin is the only way to go for me as the free running motor makes sense for my riding. The only bikes with these that I know of are the Cytronex, not currently availiable in most frame sizes and not availiable through CycleScheme and the not yet released Infineum.
So, I will try and source one direct from China. I have sent an email to Tongxin. Will let you know how it goes. If I can get one I will put it in a 700c wheel, use a 10ah lifepo4 battery and hoot it up to my old Dawes Horizon. This should be a good bike for such a kit I think and I like steel frames. I will definately go for the 160 rpm motor. It's help up the hills that I need.
Hope they are willing to supply to me.....
So, I will try and source one direct from China. I have sent an email to Tongxin. Will let you know how it goes. If I can get one I will put it in a 700c wheel, use a 10ah lifepo4 battery and hoot it up to my old Dawes Horizon. This should be a good bike for such a kit I think and I like steel frames. I will definately go for the 160 rpm motor. It's help up the hills that I need.
Hope they are willing to supply to me.....
Hi Frank,
There was talk for a while of an add on board that would sample the motor back emf and generate the Hall sensor signals. This would allow a controller that required sensor inputs to work with a sensorless motor. I've never tried one so don't know how well it works.
What is the new controller you are using? How well does it start from rest?
Nick
tongxin motor - sourcing
I was in the process of establishing links with tongxin to purchase a kit when I got a message that johnp confirmed he had placed an order for a number of them in August - see the tongxin information thread. I am not sure what the position is now as to when that will arrive but I want to purchase a tongxin kit.
Dave
I was in the process of establishing links with tongxin to purchase a kit when I got a message that johnp confirmed he had placed an order for a number of them in August - see the tongxin information thread. I am not sure what the position is now as to when that will arrive but I want to purchase a tongxin kit.
Dave
Nick,
Interesting; I'd missed Kewin's investigations into that area.
I got mine from Brett. He posted on endless sphere that he had an alternative and I dropped him a line. So far, so good!
It starts fine. Don't usually use the motor to start from standstill, but when I was testing it didn't need to be started manually or anything.
Frank
Interesting; I'd missed Kewin's investigations into that area.
I got mine from Brett. He posted on endless sphere that he had an alternative and I dropped him a line. So far, so good!
It starts fine. Don't usually use the motor to start from standstill, but when I was testing it didn't need to be started manually or anything.
Frank
Yes - gone quiet. Do post if you get any news!
I am a big fan of the Tongxin, but don't want to count too many chickens until it's done a few more miles!
Throttle set-up
I said I'd post something on the throttle arrangements I'd decided to try out on this bike when I had had the chance to test them. I've now tested them and am very happy that they work well - in fact better than other electric bikes I've ridden.
The arrangement is pretty simple. A thumb throttle with the spring removed so that it stays open, and an extra cut-out switch on the handlebars.
I've never much liked having to hold open a throttle when riding a bike for two reasons:
1. a pain in the wrist with too much work for the right hand to do
2. hard to regulate the amount of power
I much prefer a pedelec operation. With my Wisper, before the pedelec fix came to light, I got round this by taping open the throttle and using the throttle on-off switch that the first 905se bikes had to kick in the power when I had got the bike going.
However, this set up, and indeed the pedelec on the Wisper and other non-Panasonic bikes, just gives you two options: some power or none, so that is not ideal either.
My current set-up seems better than any I've tried before in that it offers lack of wrist strain, much improved ability to fine tune the amount of power (important because it is critical to getting longer range) and reasonable degree of safety, with four off switches on the handlebars (throttle + power switch + 2 brake cut-outs. It certainly makes the bike more pleasant and economical to ride than in its original configuration (thumb throttle with spring but no other switches or brake cut-outs) at the start of this thread!
When planning the set-up, I thought that I would use the power switch more, keeping the throttle at the same level and switching it on and off as required (a bit like my old method for the Wisper, or, indeed, the Cytronx). Actually it is nicer to use the throttle. Nevertheless the extra power switch is handy to give confidence the bike is safe when I stop.
I connected the switch by putting it in parallel with the brake cut-outs. This was a very easy way to put a power switch on the handlebars, and I'm surprised that more bikes don't use this set-up.
The only thing I would do to improve the set-up, which would also make it comply with EU legislation, would be to wire in an additional switch via a pedal motion sensor.
Frank
I said I'd post something on the throttle arrangements I'd decided to try out on this bike when I had had the chance to test them. I've now tested them and am very happy that they work well - in fact better than other electric bikes I've ridden.
The arrangement is pretty simple. A thumb throttle with the spring removed so that it stays open, and an extra cut-out switch on the handlebars.
I've never much liked having to hold open a throttle when riding a bike for two reasons:
1. a pain in the wrist with too much work for the right hand to do
2. hard to regulate the amount of power
I much prefer a pedelec operation. With my Wisper, before the pedelec fix came to light, I got round this by taping open the throttle and using the throttle on-off switch that the first 905se bikes had to kick in the power when I had got the bike going.
However, this set up, and indeed the pedelec on the Wisper and other non-Panasonic bikes, just gives you two options: some power or none, so that is not ideal either.
My current set-up seems better than any I've tried before in that it offers lack of wrist strain, much improved ability to fine tune the amount of power (important because it is critical to getting longer range) and reasonable degree of safety, with four off switches on the handlebars (throttle + power switch + 2 brake cut-outs. It certainly makes the bike more pleasant and economical to ride than in its original configuration (thumb throttle with spring but no other switches or brake cut-outs) at the start of this thread!
When planning the set-up, I thought that I would use the power switch more, keeping the throttle at the same level and switching it on and off as required (a bit like my old method for the Wisper, or, indeed, the Cytronx). Actually it is nicer to use the throttle. Nevertheless the extra power switch is handy to give confidence the bike is safe when I stop.
I connected the switch by putting it in parallel with the brake cut-outs. This was a very easy way to put a power switch on the handlebars, and I'm surprised that more bikes don't use this set-up.
The only thing I would do to improve the set-up, which would also make it comply with EU legislation, would be to wire in an additional switch via a pedal motion sensor.
Frank
Interesting post Frank. I too have converted a mountain bike using a Tongxin (Nano) kit. I used a reasonable quality (Redloff) folding MTB as the base and simply stowed the battery in a side pannier. Using a quality Marin MTB seems to offer a considerable advantage in terms of range and non-powered rideability. The Redloff is ok to pedal without motor assistance for short to medium distances but from your experience I am now contemplating the "holy grail" of a good quality cycle that could be ridden virtually as a normal bike exploiting the low resistance of the Tongxin motor with the availability of back up power assistance as and when required. As a fairly fit (?) cyclist I originally found I could cover pedal assisted distances of 40+ miles and up to 60miles in the hilly country of North East Lancashire quite easily using a 7ah Lipol battery. My wife (non-cyclist - but lighter!) could easily manage distances of 30+ miles. However after about a year of regular use the battery seems to be losing range quite significantly and seems to drop off very quickly if I operate on full throttle. I can still coax about 20miles + out of the battery using light pedal assistance.
I am therefore considering buying a replacement Lifepo4 battery (Ping or similar) and would appreciate any advice on what capacity I should aim for. Is there anyone out there who could advise whether there is a limit for the Tongxin motor or could I use a 15AH battery for double the range?
As a separate point I was interested to hear that you bought your kit direct from Tongxin. Did you find this straightforward as my similar enquiry earlier this year brought no response?
I am therefore considering buying a replacement Lifepo4 battery (Ping or similar) and would appreciate any advice on what capacity I should aim for. Is there anyone out there who could advise whether there is a limit for the Tongxin motor or could I use a 15AH battery for double the range?
As a separate point I was interested to hear that you bought your kit direct from Tongxin. Did you find this straightforward as my similar enquiry earlier this year brought no response?
You can use any capacity battery with any controller & motor combination Peej, only the voltage needing to be matched.
In fact with a larger capacity there is less stress on the battery so the gain can be greater. You might expect a little bit more than a doubling of the range with a doubling of capacity, and sometimes a very slight performance increase too, though those are offset by the extra weight to some extent.
.
Peej,
Thanks for your comments. Good to hear you're getting good performance from your set-up.
As Flecc says, you could use any size battery but the range you'll get could vary a lot depending on your own usage conditions and the power of the kit. I've got a Ping 10Ah, and am thinking of getting another one. I'd probably go for the 15Ah, which seems to be only a little more expensive and would offer a good complement (so I could have 10, 15 or 25Ah depending on combination). The 20Ah is not a lot more expensive than the 15, but it is getting heavy at 8+kg to have in a pannier. It sounds like either the 10, 12 or 15 would be good choices for you - just depends how far you want to travel and how much weight you're happy to carry. My set-up was quite thirsty but I'm hoping my modified throttle will enable me to get over 25 miles from the 10Ah, and perhaps 60+ from two batteries. In its previous incarnation with sprung throttle I was struggling to get 20 miles from 10Ah.
I did buy my motor from Tongxin, at the end of last year. I think that since then they have had some notable corporate wins such as Cytronex and Powacycle Infineum, so are less interested in ones and twos from consumers, but I hope that John (above) can be a good source for others who want the motor!
Thanks for your comments. Good to hear you're getting good performance from your set-up.
As Flecc says, you could use any size battery but the range you'll get could vary a lot depending on your own usage conditions and the power of the kit. I've got a Ping 10Ah, and am thinking of getting another one. I'd probably go for the 15Ah, which seems to be only a little more expensive and would offer a good complement (so I could have 10, 15 or 25Ah depending on combination). The 20Ah is not a lot more expensive than the 15, but it is getting heavy at 8+kg to have in a pannier. It sounds like either the 10, 12 or 15 would be good choices for you - just depends how far you want to travel and how much weight you're happy to carry. My set-up was quite thirsty but I'm hoping my modified throttle will enable me to get over 25 miles from the 10Ah, and perhaps 60+ from two batteries. In its previous incarnation with sprung throttle I was struggling to get 20 miles from 10Ah.
I did buy my motor from Tongxin, at the end of last year. I think that since then they have had some notable corporate wins such as Cytronex and Powacycle Infineum, so are less interested in ones and twos from consumers, but I hope that John (above) can be a good source for others who want the motor!
Interesting you should say that Frank because it was about the same for mine. I initially put this down to the speed I was going (20mph uses quite a bit energy per mile than 15mph) but I think it was also due to the fact that running my 260rpm motor in a 26" wheel was not running at an efficient speed most of the time. Ideally you want to run the motor at about 80% or more of its unloaded speed whereas I was normally no more than 70%.
It will be interesting to see how you get on with your new setup.
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
