My Raleigh Motus Grand tour after 3 years and 10,000 miles

saneagle · Apr 30, 2023

tuniwes said:
It's now a very different bike to the one that was delivered. I have taken advantage of the CTW scheme over the last 2 years to upgrade it into my "Perfect bike"

Changes that I have made:

Nexus 7 speed-> Rohloff speedhub (Gamechanger)
Stock seat post-> Thudbuster ST (Very comfortable)
Tektra brakes-> Mugura MT5 4 Pot (So powerful, now feel safe on the steepest descents I'm 18St, the stock Tektra's were terrible)
Stock Saddle-> Brooks B17 Special (There's nothing more comfortable, I've had it for 14 years)
Intuiva display-> Nyon 2 ( Just done this, the conversion is fairly easy but you do need to replace the motor cable through the frame)...Wow! best display there is and is the icing on the cake
Tyres-> Schwalbe Marathon E plus (Disappointed with the punctures I've had running these
Tyre Inserts-> Tannus Armour (We'll see how well they work)
Pedals -> SHIMANO PD-GR500L didn't like these at first, the grip pinds were lethal on your shins, I turned them over so that the cap heads provided the grip)

All in all, It owes me around £4,500 but similarly specified bikes out of R&M with a Rohloff drive now start at £7,500.

Generally, It's quite difficult to buy a new bike with a Rohloff drive, the E14 electronic change option is now available as an upgrade but wouLd cost around £1,000 fitted, I'll stick with the twist grip

R&M's have the CX motor, I'm quite happy with the performance line + motor, I wouldn't change it for a CX if I could, don't like how noisy they are.

So, very happy with how the bike has evolved, the only other thing I may add is a spare battery for touring when i retire

How many new motors and batteries did you get, and did you have to replace the LCD?

Bonzo Banana · Apr 30, 2023

So what sort of torque does this deliver to the rear wheel? Allowing for a bit of power loss through the chain and the lowest gear Rohloff ratio?

Normally with a Nexus 7 involved the mid-drive motors are down in power to 40-50Nm to prevent destruction of the Nexus 7 and even then they massively accelerate the wear rate of the Nexus 7 by perhaps up to 3x. I've read that the estimated lifespan of around 20,000km is reduced to about 8,000km with many more early failures. However there are so many variables to when something is likely to fail.

nigelbb · May 1, 2023

tuniwes said:
It's now a very different bike to the one that was delivered. I have taken advantage of the CTW scheme over the last 2 years to upgrade it into my "Perfect bike"

Changes that I have made:

Nexus 7 speed-> Rohloff speedhub (Gamechanger)

What do you find so wonderful about the Rohloff speedhub? I have a Nexus 7 on one of my eBikes & find it superior to derailleur eg changing gear while stationary.

saneagle · May 1, 2023

tuniwes said:
Still on the original motor and battery, both going strong and I'm still getting the same range as day one.
As above I changed the Intuiva for the Nyon display just recently.
If anybody is interested the Intuiva with mount and cable PM me

What's your secret formula for that success - riding around with the electrics switched off?

With my understanding of how lithium batteries work, it's not possible to get the same range from one after 10,000 miles of normal ebike riding, which would be 200 full charges for an average user. Therefore, there must be something special going on. Spill the beanz.

soundwave · May 1, 2023

my original 400w batt was still working when i gave it away for hacking the bms tho is was down on range and getting worse every charge but it lasted 9 years with a dongle.

got a 500w in 2016 tho it is down a bit on range it is still usable for a long ride and has 86 charge cycles.

just did a 16.9 mile ride with my new 500w batt i got last year with 17 charge cycles and used 50% of the batt.

there still a rip off tho

the bosch batt warranty used to be 200 charge cycles but must have changed it as all the other brands are 500 as well.

saneagle · May 1, 2023

tuniwes said:
Not really......Bosch actually guarantee their batteries for 2 years or 500 charge cycles (whichever comes first). This doesn't mean your battery will pack up after 2 years and 1 day. In fact Bosch themselves state that the battery should be good for around 8-9 years or 1000 full charge cycles. After 1000 cycles the battery will still work, but any battery will age over time so it will start to lose capacity and therefore not power your electric bike so far. Also I would like to point out now that many people think that a part charge counts as a full charge cycle in Bosch's terms. Well it doesn't, if you just top the battery up a small amount, only this is recorded and will not be counted until there are enough of these partial charges to count towards a full charge cycle. ....plenty in the tank yet

The Bosch guarantee is 80% after 2 years. When I did my Bosch training, where we went into a lot of detail about battery testing, I asked the guy how they could offer a 2 year guarantee to 80%, when I calculated , based on 500 cycles that the cell manufacturers offer, that their guarantee would have to pay for anybody doing 2500 miles in two years averaging 50 miles per charge. He just shrugged and said that's what they offered to give people confidence. He suggested that we, as dealers, should encourage customers to get their batteries tested just before the guarantee ran out so that they could potentially get a free battery and the dealers would make £40 charged for the testing.

You cannot change the behaviour of standard lithium cells by putting a Bosch case around them. You have the same cells as many other batteries. They're Samsung/Panasonic GAs IIRC. They all wear out when you use them. It says here 300 charge cycles to 70% capacity:

Test/Review of Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA 3500mAh (Red)

Sanyo/Panasonic NCR18650GA 3500mAh (Red) Official specifications: Rated capacity: 3300mAh Minimum capacity: 3350mAh Typical capacity: 3450mAh Nominal voltage: 3.6V Discharge end voltage: 2.5V Charging current (Std.): 1.675A Charging voltage: 4.20 +/-0.03V Charging...

budgetlightforum.com

saneagle · May 1, 2023

soundwave said:
my original 400w batt was still working when i gave it away for hacking the bms tho is was down on range and getting worse every charge but it lasted 9 years with a dongle.

got a 500w in 2016 tho it is down a bit on range it is still usable for a long ride and has 86 charge cycles.

just did a 16.9 mile ride with my new 500w batt i got last year with 17 charge cycles and used 50% of the batt.

there still a rip off tho

the bosch batt warranty used to be 200 charge cycles but must have changed it as all the other brands are 500 as well.

How many miles show on your LCD?

soundwave · May 1, 2023

on ebike connect its 623 total.

on the kiox its 655 but on komoot its 297 over 102 rides 36hrs.

because i have a dongle means anything over 10mph is half speed and miles on my display but my max speed never goes over 16.5mph your honor look at the bosch app.

m8 thinks his shitmano batts can do 1000 charge cycles lmfao motor will implode soon

soundwave · May 2, 2023

so as you can see the mileage posted to komoot does not match from the kiox display under destination what the bosch app sends to it

after those 2 rides yesterday i had 22% batt left

Bonzo Banana · May 2, 2023

saneagle said:
What's your secret formula for that success - riding around with the electrics switched off?

With my understanding of how lithium batteries work, it's not possible to get the same range from one after 10,000 miles of normal ebike riding, which would be 200 full charges for an average user. Therefore, there must be something special going on. Spill the beanz.

Wouldn't the lower power output of this motor be a factor. I think it's only 40-50Nm peak torque but I would say the majority of Bosch mid-drive motors sold are between 65 and 100Nm in order to give them a clear advantage over most hub motors. The current draw from each cell would surely be much lower and therefore extend battery life?

Even with this reduced power the Nexus 7 has failed here at about 6,700 miles probably a third of the potential lifespan of such a geared hub on a analogue bike and maybe a fifth of what you could expect with a front hub motor and Nexus 7 combination which depending on hub motor could actually be more powerful going up hills.

I just feel it is likely the low torque of the mid-drive here will extend the lifespan of the battery. The battery discharge rate could be half that typically of the same battery pack used with a e-mountain bike. Doing mainly climbing off-road you can fully discharge such battery packs (400Wh version likely) in 25-40 minutes. In comparison I feel like you would have hours of runtime for this ebike under normal use.

saneagle · May 2, 2023

Bonzo Banana said:
Wouldn't the lower power output of this motor be a factor. I think it's only 40-50Nm peak torque but I would say the majority of Bosch mid-drive motors sold are between 65 and 100Nm in order to give them a clear advantage over most hub motors. The current draw from each cell would surely be much lower and therefore extend battery life?

Even with this reduced power the Nexus 7 has failed here at about 6,700 miles probably a third of the potential lifespan of such a geared hub on a analogue bike and maybe a fifth of what you could expect with a front hub motor and Nexus 7 combination which depending on hub motor could actually be more powerful going up hills.

I just feel it is likely the low torque of the mid-drive here will extend the lifespan of the battery. The battery discharge rate could be half that typically of the same battery pack used with a e-mountain bike. Doing mainly climbing off-road you can fully discharge such battery packs (400Wh version likely) in 25-40 minutes. In comparison I feel like you would have hours of runtime for this ebike under normal use.

When they do the performance tests on batteries for life cycles, the current is very low compared with what most people use in an ebike, so rider use won't do much to beat what they specify; however the specification is very low, probably to avoid warranty issues and law suits rather than being representative of actual. I think actual would be closer to 1000 charge cycles for normal careful use.

Obviously, it does make a difference how you ride a bike. There's plenty of evidence that your battery will last longer if you use less current. That applies to charging as well as discharging. We also know that temperature has an effect, and, most important of all, the depth of discharge and height of charge of the cells. There is no problem with not fully discharging your battery, but there can be with not charging high enough, so best avoided. Anyway, Bosch charges to around 41.8v, the same as any other ebike battery, and they claim 500wh from the 40 3.3Ah cells, so they're not trying to extend life by using less of the available capacity.

The only way I can make sense of OP's situation is that they were able to cycle a certain distance when the bike was new. During the 10,000 miles, OP's legs became stronger and stronger, so even though the battery was declining, OP is pedalling harder to compensate. Unless OP gets a battery test done, we have no idea how much it has actually declined. Any Bosch ebike dealer can do the test. If you pay them to service your bike, they sometimes do it for free, depending on how many spare parts they can rip you off for, otherwise, it's about £40.

As I said before, any high mileage rider should get their battery tested just before the 2 years is up to possibly get a new battery for £40. I think it's a good bet. I'll probably have my Bosch technician certificate revoked for telling you that.

You make some good points, but what you can't change is the laws of physics: If two different bikes with the same rider go up the same hill at the same speed, you need the same torque, the same power and the same amount of assistance, so with the same voltage battery, you need the same current. There has always been the argument that a crank motor can climb more efficiently, which can be true in some cases, but a hub-motor can be more efficient in an equal number of cases. It just depends on the motor design and how well it matches the particular circumstances - mainly the speed for a hub-motor and rider cadence for a crank-motor.

soundwave · May 2, 2023

if you really want a new batt after 18 months drain it flat and leave it and dont charge it as the bms will drain the cells to 0v and brick the bms

if they want to do this stupid crap like this then use it to your advantage as we have found a way to recell them anyway just not the power tube batts.

georgehenry · May 3, 2023

saneagle said:
When they do the performance tests on batteries for life cycles, the current is very low compared with what most people use in an ebike, so rider use won't do much to beat what they specify; however the specification is very low, probably to avoid warranty issues and law suits rather than being representative of actual. I think actual would be closer to 1000 charge cycles for normal careful use.

Obviously, it does make a difference how you ride a bike. There's plenty of evidence that your battery will last longer if you use less current. That applies to charging as well as discharging. We also know that temperature has an effect, and, most important of all, the depth of discharge and height of charge of the cells. There is no problem with not fully discharging your battery, but there can be with not charging high enough, so best avoided. Anyway, Bosch charges to around 41.8v, the same as any other ebike battery, and they claim 500wh from the 40 3.3Ah cells, so they're not trying to extend life by using less of the available capacity.

The only way I can make sense of OP's situation is that they were able to cycle a certain distance when the bike was new. During the 10,000 miles, OP's legs became stronger and stronger, so even though the battery was declining, OP is pedalling harder to compensate. Unless OP gets a battery test done, we have no idea how much it has actually declined. Any Bosch ebike dealer can do the test. If you pay them to service your bike, they sometimes do it for free, depending on how many spare parts they can rip you off for, otherwise, it's about £40.

As I said before, any high mileage rider should get their battery tested just before the 2 years is up to possibly get a new battery for £40. I think it's a good bet. I'll probably have my Bosch technician certificate revoked for telling you that.

You make some good points, but what you can't change is the laws of physics: If two different bikes with the same rider go up the same hill at the same speed, you need the same torque, the same power and the same amount of assistance, so with the same voltage battery, you need the same current. There has always been the argument that a crank motor can climb more efficiently, which can be true in some cases, but a hub-motor can be more efficient in an equal number of cases. It just depends on the motor design and how well it matches the particular circumstances - mainly the speed for a hub-motor and rider cadence for a crank-motor.

I am not quite as skeptical about what has been claimed, although I accept that nearly everyone can be prone to some exaggeration at times.

I have been documenting the use of my Yamaha hard tail Haibike since I bought it in March of 2015 to commute to work and back. It came with a 400Wh battery.

I am still using my original battery as I now enter my 9th year of ownership.

In Deceber 2022 I was prompted by soundwave to check the number of charge cycles and current capacity of my 400Wh battery using the Yamaha workshop manual button pressing procedure on my battery.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/975488/Yamaha-X94-Series.html?page=18#manual

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/975488/Yamaha-X94-Series.html?page=19#manual

It is a fairly crude method however using the two tests for my battery.

It shows that I have charged my battery for 701 times or more. It does not measure above this.

It also shows that the capacity of my battery is still in the 75% to 100% range. If correct this does indeed confirm that my battery is holding up remarkably well as it approaches its eighth birthday in March 2023.

What are the factors that could be effecting my own batteries longevity.

From when I bought it in March 2015 until when I retired in October 2021 I only used the bike to commute to work.

When questioned in my thread about my Haibike and battery range and use I wrote.

It would be frustrating for me to reply to your question about battery range with, depends, but there is always an element of depends when talking about range.

Interestingly as I use my Haibike to commute to work and back I have very rarely depleted the battery close to empty.

The fact that I have used this bike almost entirely to commute could be a factor in the 400Wh battery lasting so well.

Basically I charge my battery to full before setting off to work. My ride to work is around 11 miles and the majority of this is off road.

So going to work I use my lowest assist level of the three I have (I wish I had the lower eco plus assist level on my bike, but that came out on the following years bike). I also switch the assist off for quite a few sections where the gradient allows. My Yamaha system has a full size chain ring and seems to add no resistance when ridden with the assist off. So I find ridden in this way at the moment in the summer I use consistently + or - the odd percentage, 26% to 30% of my 400Wh batteries capacity, riding 11 miles to work.

I have two main routes I use and one of them involves more climbing and because of this uses a bit more battery.

So crunching the maths, If I carried on riding with the same power usage as I do riding to work on my most efficient route in respect of my battery, my bike would theoretically be able to power me 42,3 miles before the battery ran out. On the steeper route the range drops to 36,6 miles.

However I am pretty sure it would not. The ability of my battery at least is stronger in the top half of its capacity, and diminishes more quickly once under 50%. The way the resilience of my battery diminishes as you dip under 50% remaining could also be due to its degradation as it ages.

So when I get to work I charge my battery back up to full. As I have only used roughly a quarter of its capacity this probably does not take that long. So my battery is left connected to its switched on charger for I guess around 6 hours before I finish work and retrieve it for my ride home. I mention this as it probably means that the battery management system of my Yamaha system is a good one and the charger completely switches itself off once the full charge of the battery and any balancing required has been accomplished.

Then I ride it home, starting with a full battery. Going home I ride on an undulating B road, and want to get home as quickly as possible, although I still ride in a way that is as kind as possible to the battery.

I still use a lot of eco, but also my middle higher assistance level to maintain speed up and over the steeper hills. The other night I used 41% of my 400Wh battery to travel 10 miles in 29 minutes. So used like this, using more of my batteries power to travel more quickly, again crunching the maths, my battery would run out at 24.4 miles. And if what I suspect is true, that the bottom half of my batteries capacity is less resilient than the top half, it might run out several miles sooner, perhaps at not much more than 20 miles. Remember my battery is 6 years and 4 months old, and has powered me 13,964 miles as of my return from work last night.

All the figures above would be less in the Winter.

Another important factor to consider is how much total weight, rider and luggage you are carrying, and how much input (fitness) you as a rider can add to help the motor.

In my case I am over 100kg and carry about 5Kg in two panniers.

My golden rules in respect of my battery are.

Charge it to full as close to when you are going to use it as possible.

Remove your battery after your ride and store it in the house.

Store your battery somewhere in the 50% to 75% range.

I store my battery after I get home from work when it is showing a remaining capacity of around 60% now in the summer, and as low as 50% in the winter.

And that's about it. So its quite simple really. Is my battery better than the norm or is the way I use it a factor in its longevity. I don'y really know.

Another thing I hear said, is regularly using your battery is a good thing, though my battery has been left unused for up to 6 weeks with seemingly no ill effect.

Hope this helps.

saneagle · May 3, 2023

georgehenry said:
I am not quite as skeptical about what has been claimed, although I accept that nearly everyone can be prone to some exaggeration at times.

I have been documenting the use of my Yamaha hard tail Haibike since I bought it in March of 2015 to commute to work and back. It came with a 400Wh battery.

I am still using my original battery as I now enter my 9th year of ownership.

In Deceber 2022 I was prompted by soundwave to check the number of charge cycles and current capacity of my 400Wh battery using the Yamaha workshop manual button pressing procedure on my battery.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/975488/Yamaha-X94-Series.html?page=18#manual

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/975488/Yamaha-X94-Series.html?page=19#manual

It is a fairly crude method however using the two tests for my battery.

It shows that I have charged my battery for 701 times or more. It does not measure above this.

It also shows that the capacity of my battery is still in the 75% to 100% range. If correct this does indeed confirm that my battery is holding up remarkably well as it approaches its eighth birthday in March 2023.

What are the factors that could be effecting my own batteries longevity.

From when I bought it in March 2015 until when I retired in October 2021 I only used the bike to commute to work.

When questioned in my thread about my Haibike and battery range and use I wrote.

It would be frustrating for me to reply to your question about battery range with, depends, but there is always an element of depends when talking about range.

Interestingly as I use my Haibike to commute to work and back I have very rarely depleted the battery close to empty.

The fact that I have used this bike almost entirely to commute could be a factor in the 400Wh battery lasting so well.

Basically I charge my battery to full before setting off to work. My ride to work is around 11 miles and the majority of this is off road.

So going to work I use my lowest assist level of the three I have (I wish I had the lower eco plus assist level on my bike, but that came out on the following years bike). I also switch the assist off for quite a few sections where the gradient allows. My Yamaha system has a full size chain ring and seems to add no resistance when ridden with the assist off. So I find ridden in this way at the moment in the summer I use consistently + or - the odd percentage, 26% to 30% of my 400Wh batteries capacity, riding 11 miles to work.

I have two main routes I use and one of them involves more climbing and because of this uses a bit more battery.

So crunching the maths, If I carried on riding with the same power usage as I do riding to work on my most efficient route in respect of my battery, my bike would theoretically be able to power me 42,3 miles before the battery ran out. On the steeper route the range drops to 36,6 miles.

However I am pretty sure it would not. The ability of my battery at least is stronger in the top half of its capacity, and diminishes more quickly once under 50%. The way the resilience of my battery diminishes as you dip under 50% remaining could also be due to its degradation as it ages.

So when I get to work I charge my battery back up to full. As I have only used roughly a quarter of its capacity this probably does not take that long. So my battery is left connected to its switched on charger for I guess around 6 hours before I finish work and retrieve it for my ride home. I mention this as it probably means that the battery management system of my Yamaha system is a good one and the charger completely switches itself off once the full charge of the battery and any balancing required has been accomplished.

Then I ride it home, starting with a full battery. Going home I ride on an undulating B road, and want to get home as quickly as possible, although I still ride in a way that is as kind as possible to the battery.

I still use a lot of eco, but also my middle higher assistance level to maintain speed up and over the steeper hills. The other night I used 41% of my 400Wh battery to travel 10 miles in 29 minutes. So used like this, using more of my batteries power to travel more quickly, again crunching the maths, my battery would run out at 24.4 miles. And if what I suspect is true, that the bottom half of my batteries capacity is less resilient than the top half, it might run out several miles sooner, perhaps at not much more than 20 miles. Remember my battery is 6 years and 4 months old, and has powered me 13,964 miles as of my return from work last night.

All the figures above would be less in the Winter.

Another important factor to consider is how much total weight, rider and luggage you are carrying, and how much input (fitness) you as a rider can add to help the motor.

In my case I am over 100kg and carry about 5Kg in two panniers.

My golden rules in respect of my battery are.

Charge it to full as close to when you are going to use it as possible.

Remove your battery after your ride and store it in the house.

Store your battery somewhere in the 50% to 75% range.

I store my battery after I get home from work when it is showing a remaining capacity of around 60% now in the summer, and as low as 50% in the winter.

And that's about it. So its quite simple really. Is my battery better than the norm or is the way I use it a factor in its longevity. I don'y really know.

Another thing I hear said, is regularly using your battery is a good thing, though my battery has been left unused for up to 6 weeks with seemingly no ill effect.

Hope this helps.

75% after 700 charges is normal. 100% after 200 charges isn't!

georgehenry · May 3, 2023

I take your point about what the OP has said and that a battery seeming to perform as well as it did when new after 200 charges seems unlikely. However, I found a very similar thing with my own Yamaha battery. When commenting about its excellent performance in my reviews I made the point that I knew the battery must be degrading but from my perspective it seemed to be working as well as it ever had done.

The trouble with the Yamaha workshop manual test is that it does not measure the number of charges above 700.

I first found out about and then did that test on my battery around the the 26th of November 2017 when the bike was 2 years and 8 months old.

Back then I posted,

Using the Yamaha manual I recently found that my battery had been charged more than 700 times (the maximum measurement of the test so it could be a few more than 700 charge cycles or a lot more), but that the capacity was still in the maximum range of 75% to 100%.

So if the test can be relied on my battery had already been charged a minimum of 700 times when it was 2 years and 8 months old. I kept using it the same way until i retired in October 2021 and although there is no way for me to be sure you might assume I would have charged it a minimum of another 700 times by then.

After retiring its use lulled a bit at first but I am now riding it as much as I did when I was commuting. So again only guessing but that could easily be a minimum of another 700 charges.

A lot of guess work but my battery may now have been charged at least 2,100 times.

My battery is definitely showing its age now but considering its age still performs amazingly well.

I am riding to a friends house tomorrow over a 15 mile mostly off road route with lots of climbing that I have done before and will expect to get to his house by using no more than half of my batteries capacity.

I guess until the test shows that my capacity has dipped below 75% I cannot be sure its working or accurate.

The parameters of the test seem to be so that a bike shop can check whether a Yamaha battery has reduced enough in capacity to warrant being replaced.

I also have two rear hub bikes with silverfish batteries behind the seat post and those batteries capacities begin to noticeably decline much quicker. They cost a lot less to replace though.

My Raleigh Motus Grand tour after 3 years and 10,000 miles

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