My name is ..... And I'm new here.....

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
Hello all.

I've been a moderately keen two wheeled bicycle rider during the periods of my life when work allowed. That means 5 to 15 years old, then most of the last 20 years. As a child I rode a road bike with drop handlebars. More recently, I've owned and used a number of MTB's but nothing super exotic. My upper spending limit on a bike has to date, been £1000. I own a couple of bikes. Actually four....

Some 4 or so years ago, a riding mate let me have a go of his Levo. It was so easy to ride, it was more like riding an electric motor bike. I used to ride a motorbike, and since I came off every one I ever owned, I wasn't that keen on an electric bike, not an unrestricted one anyway. Fast forward 4 or 5 years, and the lack of exercise covid has provided, has me lacking the limited stamina I once had. 5 months ago another riding pal took me out on a ridiculously difficult trail ride, that was basically 15 or so miles of hill climbing. For the first time in my life, I pushed my bike up a hill. Possibly, it is time to consider an e- conversion kit for at least one of my bikes?

The other consideration to making a purchase, is an retired friend who bought a Kettwiesel trike, in the hope (at my suggestion), that an e-motor conversion was a realistic opportunity. How hard is it to change a front wheel to a hub motor? How naive was I?

The initial interest in joining the Pedelec community, was/is to get advice. Firstly to get some reliable advice and suggestions, and guidance when things inevitably 'go south'. At this point in time, "we" (my retired friend and I) are looking for a route to a reliable retailer, who will supply a kit I might well fit, within a budget of around £1,000. Many of you experienced members will I hope be thinking sorting out the Kettwiesel trike to an e-trike should be straight-forward enough, but my experience suggests otherwise.

On her behalf, I have made an approach to 5 resellers/retailers so far.

The first, a reputable seller on Ebay, said their manufacturers had told them the hub motor they sold wasn't suitable for trikes.

Another solution that involved a German made hub motor, completely bust the budget by over double, so that wasn't a route to follow.

A well known, and as far as I can tell, very professional company in the East of England quoted a little under £2k for a mid drive system, but the configuration was going to make the trike difficult to use, mindful of the physical condition of the owner. (ie. Not young.)

A well known You Tube e-bike enthusiast was approached via their retail site, and not only was the enthusiast unavailable to help, the person that did offer to help from the approach, was emailing back from China. Too far for warranty issues, and the reason for approaching this retailer in the first place, had been their proximity.

The last retailer I approached, is also fairly well-known in the e-bike world and again, not a million miles away, so a physical visit to their outlet was also possible (as with the previous contact as we had thought). The initial response from this retailer was promising, but that response very quickly died away. With two prospective sales on the cards, you'd think our enquiries wouldn't be ignored.

At the moment, "we" have two choices: either spend what seems to me to be a ridiculous amount of money on a conversion by those who have actually shown some interest in pursuing a sale, or opt for chancing our luck on an Ebay reseller who ships from a warehouse in the UK. Their 20" hub motor and battery coming in at around £500. That's enough under budget to afford a second battery. What we don't know, is will the prospective kit we would buy, do the job?

If you are still reading, thank you for your perseverance. ;)
 
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cyclebuddy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 2, 2016
1,632
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Beds & Norfolk
Bump.
 
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matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
1,852
1,338
Narrow down what you want to do and solutions will flow!

There seem to be two queries here, your mountain bike and your friend's Kettwiesel trike, which is a 'delta'.

Mountain biking trails need a mid motor. A mountain bike on the road will likely do fine with a hub, but more info about your terrain will help.

The Kettwiesel looks like it does not have much weight on the front wheel, so a front hub may not work too well. Their own electric version uses a mid motor.
 
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FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
Perhaps I should explain a little bit about what we are looking for, by way of eliciting some suggestions?

The Kettwiesel Evo had originally been ordered/supplied with (if I remember) a 52 tooth front chainwheel and an 11 gear rear cassette. This system on a 25kg trike might work is the rider happened to be an athletic 25 year old, but not so well for the original owner who gave up quite soon given the 'as new' condition of the trike when bought last year "used".

The current owner is circa 5'2" and looks back on her 60's with fondness. That 52 tooth chainwheel was a non-starter, and the trike currently has a 28 tooth fat/thin chainwheel with short cranks, both removed from a child's bike and fitted to make the trike rideable by the current owner. This has transformed the trike, and is now a joy to ride. It's configured more like a modern MTB 1x11 with suitably low gearing for a moderately heavy bike/trike.

Although another member here has managed a mid-drive conversion, the size of the front chainwheel which cannot be increased, makes a mid-drive potentially unsuitable. Add the possible lack of room for the motor, the need to alter the steering arm, and a mid-drive seems too much of a challenge. There is a commercial offer on the table for this, but the reasonable cost is outside the budget.

The alternate is a hub drive. It's quite likely it has to be the front wheel, because the rear wheels on this model, have an independant suspension system for each wheel using air shocks. In theory, both rear wheels could have hub motors fitted, but is there technology in the controllers to keep the respective speeds of them fairly matched? A front wheel hub motor, seems much simpler.

Often, one of the reasons for not using a hub motor are the speed vs torque decision, as the choice seems to one or the other. That isn't a problem with this project. The owner is never going to want to travel faster than say 8-10mph. What is more important, by some margin, is the ability of the hub motor to pull 25kg of trike, and 50kg of rider, up hills. The owner, while having no plans to use the trike on the road, wants to keep the trike e-bike legal, if at all possible. that means (we believe) a 250w (geared) motor installed in a 20" wheel rim. Longevity of journey time is important, so a 36v by 20wAh battery is also on the current shopping list.

What we don't know, is will this project work? Do we need to consider a 350w hub motor? Do we need a 48v system?

Any advice would be welcome.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
Narrow down what you want to do and solutions will flow!

There seem to be two queries here, your mountain bike and your friend's Kettwiesel trike, which is a 'delta'.

Mountain biking trails need a mid motor. A mountain bike on the road will likely do fine with a hub, but more info about your terrain will help.

The Kettwiesel looks like it does not have much weight on the front wheel, so a front hub may not work too well. Their own electric version uses a mid motor.
Anything for my bike can wait. The trike is the important project for now.

I agree the front is potentially light, but the battery will be located on the boom to help with this. If necessary the front tyre can be made wider/heavier to aid grip. My expectation is the front of the trike will be no lighter than say a bicycle with a front wheel hub drive?

The expected routes will not be difficult offroad trails. Canal paths, pedestrian routes, possibly well made bridal paths. The rider is pretty frail, and an upset on the trike really could be a disaster. These things don't come with seat belts, or roll cages, so the routes have to be manageable by someone a few years into retirement. While the owner will not appreciate the analogy, I'm going to suggest the trike will only be going places it would be safe for a mobility scooter -"off road". No ploughed fields, no dense woodland (unless there is a clear path through), nowhere rocks or fallen trees block the route.
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
1,852
1,338
Perhaps I should explain a little bit about what we are looking for, by way of eliciting some suggestions?

The Kettwiesel Evo had originally been ordered/supplied with (if I remember) a 52 tooth front chainwheel and an 11 gear rear cassette. This system on a 25kg trike might work is the rider happened to be an athletic 25 year old, but not so well for the original owner who gave up quite soon given the 'as new' condition of the trike when bought last year "used".

The current owner is circa 5'2" and looks back on her 60's with fondness. That 52 tooth chainwheel was a non-starter, and the trike currently has a 28 tooth fat/thin chainwheel with short cranks, both removed from a child's bike and fitted to make the trike rideable by the current owner. This has transformed the trike, and is now a joy to ride. It's configured more like a modern MTB 1x11 with suitably low gearing for a moderately heavy bike/trike.

Although another member here has managed a mid-drive conversion, the size of the front chainwheel which cannot be increased, makes a mid-drive potentially unsuitable. Add the possible lack of room for the motor, the need to alter the steering arm, and a mid-drive seems too much of a challenge. There is a commercial offer on the table for this, but the reasonable cost is outside the budget.

The alternate is a hub drive. It's quite likely it has to be the front wheel, because the rear wheels on this model, have an independant suspension system for each wheel using air shocks. In theory, both rear wheels could have hub motors fitted, but is there technology in the controllers to keep the respective speeds of them fairly matched? A front wheel hub motor, seems much simpler.

Often, one of the reasons for not using a hub motor are the speed vs torque decision, as the choice seems to one or the other. That isn't a problem with this project. The owner is never going to want to travel faster than say 8-10mph. What is more important, by some margin, is the ability of the hub motor to pull 25kg of trike, and 50kg of rider, up hills. The owner, while having no plans to use the trike on the road, wants to keep the trike e-bike legal, if at all possible. that means (we believe) a 250w (geared) motor installed in a 20" wheel rim. Longevity of journey time is important, so a 36v by 20wAh battery is also on the current shopping list.

What we don't know, is will this project work? Do we need to consider a 350w hub motor? Do we need a 48v system?

Any advice would be welcome.
Can you say more about gradients and lengths of hills that need to be tackled? This is likely to be the main issue for the trike.
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
A crank drive is lot easier project with fewer potential problems than a front hub conversion.
I had read up on the project some time ago. The steerer needs to be replaced which as far as I know, isn't something that can't be bought off the shelf. I have a pipe bender (as it happens) but I'm not sure having to do things like this actually qualifies it as easier than swapping out a front wheel? On a bicycle, I would 100% agree with your comment, and also agree with matthewslack comment regarding benefits for being able to use gears in an offroad situation.

The cruncher for the mid-drive, is the chainwheel HAS to be the 28 tooth that's on the trike at the moment. Otherwise the owner is just not able to pedal the trike on flat ground.
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
Can you say more about gradients and lengths of hills that need to be tackled? This is likely to be the main issue for the trike.
This is a difficult question to answer. As above, mostly where people on foot would walk? Nothing terribly steep, nor terribly long and steep. The hope is the battery will provide 20-30 miles of mixed support. Most of it will not be up hill, but along flat ground. Old railway lines, bridleways, canal paths. The idea is to increase the scope of attractive scenery to be viewed from offroad locations, not to provide riding challenges across the Dales to a someone some ten years or more into their pension. The teeny-tiny exception might be one of the roads that leads to her home. There's a fairly steep slope perhaps 100 yards long, that is as steep as 1:4 or 1:5 (25% or 20%) that would be a challenge to anyone riding a bike, much less a trike. I've tried some of it on the trike, and it was very, very hard work.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
The cruncher for the mid-drive, is the chainwheel HAS to be the 28 tooth that's on the trike at the moment.
you can fit a 4-bolt 110mm BCD adapter and 28T chainring to the BBS01. It's inexpensive.
the steerer needs to be replaced which as far as I know
where did you read that?

It's OK, I reread the story. I supplied the TSDZ2 in that kit. The steering rod was in the way and the customer made a new rod himself.
 
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FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
you can fit a 4-bolt 110mm BCD adapter and 28T chainring to the BBS01. It's inexpensive.

where did you read that?
"I am grateful for comments on this forum that brought me to choose the TSDZ2 Mid Drive and a picture from Wooshbikes showing a Bafang motor on a Kettwiesel (showing a steering rod modification)."

"Install (steering) – the photo of the BBS01 on a Kettwiesel showed the need to relocate the steering rod above the bottom bracket – first attempt was to lengthen the bolt through the universal joint and use spacers to raise the height by about 90mm – result fail – I got the clearance but there was too much flex and the front bracket on the headstock would eventually fail. Second successful method – purchase aluminium tube 16mm x 1.5mm x 2m (ebay metalshop) and bend it with a Silverline tube bender (we bought 3 lengths of tube and had several practice attempts). Method – measure clearance needed above bottom bracket and front/rear clearance needed. Make the bends nearer to 45 degrees than 90, cut off both ends to a finished length to match original – this results in the first bend being as close as possible to the headstock end. We made a threaded aluminium insert as an interference fit to the tube and hammered it home."

From this thread: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/hase-ketwiessel-recumbent-trike-tsdz2-install-part-completed.35552/#post-521070

There is a picture on the thread showing the revised route of the new steerer.

I have looked at the space needed for a mid-drive motor under the boom, and the steering arm currently needs that space under the boom. It completely explained to me, why the steering arm modification needed to be done as shown in the picture in that thread, as detailed in the quoted text above.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
"I am grateful for comments on this forum that brought me to choose the TSDZ2 Mid Drive and a picture from Wooshbikes showing a Bafang motor on a Kettwiesel (showing a steering rod modification)."

"Install (steering) – the photo of the BBS01 on a Kettwiesel showed the need to relocate the steering rod above the bottom bracket – first attempt was to lengthen the bolt through the universal joint and use spacers to raise the height by about 90mm – result fail – I got the clearance but there was too much flex and the front bracket on the headstock would eventually fail. Second successful method – purchase aluminium tube 16mm x 1.5mm x 2m (ebay metalshop) and bend it with a Silverline tube bender (we bought 3 lengths of tube and had several practice attempts). Method – measure clearance needed above bottom bracket and front/rear clearance needed. Make the bends nearer to 45 degrees than 90, cut off both ends to a finished length to match original – this results in the first bend being as close as possible to the headstock end. We made a threaded aluminium insert as an interference fit to the tube and hammered it home."

From this thread: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/hase-ketwiessel-recumbent-trike-tsdz2-install-part-completed.35552/#post-521070

There is a picture on the thread showing the revised route of the new steerer.

I have looked at the space needed for a mid-drive motor under the boom, and the steering arm currently needs that space under the boom. It completely explained to me, why the steering arm modification needed to be done as shown in the picture in that thread, as detailed in the quoted text above.
I did reread the post and edited my post above but you beat me to it.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
the reason I recommend a crank drive is because it's a lot more flexible torque wise than a front motor kit. The issue for anyone with physical impairment is you need high torque at low speed.
I did work on a hand bike for a guy in a wheel chair. He has one of those Weizmann hub motors. The torque was good at very low speed but the motor is very heavy.
It's much better to have a crank drive on a tricycle, you can crawl up a hill, ride round a bend at 4-6mph totally controllable using the throttle.
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
you can fit a 4-bolt 110mm BCD adapter and 28T chainring to the BBS01. It's inexpensive.

where did you read that?

It's OK, I reread the story. I supplied the TSDZ2 in that kit. The steering rod was in the way and the customer made a new rod himself.
I was busy writing while you edited the post. I'll leave my comments as is, to save others having to go back to re-read the original post.

It might be that not all Hase trikes need the steerer modified, but this particular model does. It's a PITA that it does, and adds enough grief to the arrangement that makes it undesirable. Even with the steering arm modification, I can't see how a full left-lock is possible because with the original arrangement, full left-lock takes the steering arm under the boom. Even with the re-shaped version that goes over the cranks (not under), that revised steering arm can't go far enough over to the right without hitting the boom to provide the same steering circle as the original?

And there doesn't seem to be enough room to mount the mid-drive motor above the boom..... A hub motor seems to be the simplest route after all?
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
the reason I recommend a crank drive is because it's a lot more flexible torque wise than a front motor kit. The issue for anyone with physical impairment is you need high torque at low speed.

I did work on a hand bike for a guy in a wheel chair. He has one of those Weizmann hub motors. The torque was good at very low speed but the motor is very heavy.

It's much better to have a crank drive on a tricycle, you can crawl up a hill, ride round a bend at 4-6mph totally controllable using the throttle.
I appreciate the wide range of torque, a mid-drive can provide when the rear gears are used in conjunction. Hase themselves resolved this by completely changing the boom to accommodate a Shimano STEPS system, which cannot be retro fitted. Not without finding a replacement boom anyway.

The Weizmann hub motor option was the original inspiration for a hub drive. A well thought of reseller offers these, but you only buy the hub motor it seems. Part of the installation cost includes having a wheel built around that (rather expensive) hub. I detailed this as one of the enquiries mentioned in the first post of this thread. This option is so expensive, it would be cheaper to sell the mechanical trike, and buy a used STEPS version.

We are hoping a 250w x 36v geared 20" wheel hub motor can provide enough torque to climb the occasional hill and to move rider plus trike at 8mph on fairly flat trails. But if anyone knows differently .... ?
 

matthewslack

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2021
1,852
1,338
I appreciate the wide range of torque, a mid-drive can provide when the rear gears are used in conjunction. Hase themselves resolved this by completely changing the boom to accommodate a Shimano STEPS system, which cannot be retro fitted. Not without finding a replacement boom anyway.

The Weizmann hub motor option was the original inspiration for a hub drive. A well thought of reseller offers these, but you only buy the hub motor it seems. Part of the installation cost includes having a wheel built around that (rather expensive) hub. I detailed this as one of the enquiries mentioned in the first post of this thread. This option is so expensive, it would be cheaper to sell the mechanical trike, and buy a used STEPS version.

We are hoping a 250w x 36v geared 20" wheel hub motor can provide enough torque to climb the occasional hill and to move rider plus trike at 8mph on fairly flat trails. But if anyone knows differently .... ?
For almost everything you want to do, yes it can but it is the limit where the problems will be! It's the occasional 20-25% gradient that is the killer, and your motor and wheel needs to be chosen with that as its design requirement. Your rider sounds as though they will not be able to make up for any lack of ability on the part of the motor.

Secondly, you will need to learn by experience the traction limitations of the front drive, hedging your bets with a good tyre choice.

Range should be fine on 20Ah, but start cautiously there too and the worst case is add a second battery, also on the boom to aid weight distribution.

Others can help you with motor and controller choice: I'm a mid-drive man!
 
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soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,851
6,486
do not buy any bike with a shitmano motor they are the worst of the lot when the 2 year warranty ends so does your bike.

m8 has a e8000 motor and madison wont even sell him a new one so only option is ebay!! even then it will need the dealers software to make it work!!!
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
do not buy any bike with a shitmano motor they are the worst of the lot when the 2 year warranty ends so does your bike.

m8 has a e8000 motor and madison wont even sell him a new one so only option is ebay!! even then it will need the dealers software to make it work!!!
I mentioned a friend with a Levo.... He's on his third motor, or was a couple of years ago. I think Specialised ramped up the price of the same bike from 5 to 8k to accommodate the costs of motor replacement.
 

FastFreddy2

Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
186
87
For almost everything you want to do, yes it can but it is the limit where the problems will be! It's the occasional 20-25% gradient that is the killer, and your motor and wheel needs to be chosen with that as its design requirement. Your rider sounds as though they will not be able to make up for any lack of ability on the part of the motor.

Secondly, you will need to learn by experience the traction limitations of the front drive, hedging your bets with a good tyre choice.

Range should be fine on 20Ah, but start cautiously there too and the worst case is add a second battery, also on the boom to aid weight distribution.

Others can help you with motor and controller choice: I'm a mid-drive man!
You hit the nail on the head.

I can't (as yet) get an answer, as indicated in my original post. It's going to be down to me to buy something and find out the hard way. But for the fact the Weizmann hub motor works, I might not even be trying. The intent is to fit the battery under the boom with offset mounts. If that doesn't work the battery may have to be mounted partially over the front wheel.

I don't suppose for one second, these issues haven't been ironed out, but where are the answers if not here? :cool:
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,851
6,486
brose refuse to sort there shitty motors out and still leak as also these motors are not to be fixed and thrown in the bin like all the others.

but!

peter at ebike motor centre/ performance line bearings can service the hole motor as have made custom tools to take it all apart but brose do not sell parts so one of the most expensive motors to service becose of the labour time to do it.


nice looking bikes but if you gave me a brand new one that cost 10k for my near 10 year old bosch bike id say no thanks but i can throw it in the canal for free :p



he did service the shitmano motors but every one he fixed got bricked one way or the other and made him replace every motor they opened.:mad:
 
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