My Cargo bike build.

[Nealh]

On ES there was a UK guy having a similar issue to mine, in that java jre would not open and he was getting blank screens or unable to connect to java. So my guess is that he had a similar thing to me and the PC op system not recognising or allowing the java to upload within.
There were a couple of guys on there tring to help him and then there was the usual for ES from the know it alls, whose simple repsonse was to browse the www. for noob questions on programming or follow the Github procedure. To me not a very useful reply when one isn't too savvy or is confused with programming procedures, the fact that Guerney was patient enough to spend his valuable time trying to cypher this issue speaks well for this forum in my mind and some of the members on here.

 

[Nealh]

I was going to start a 'My cargo bike build (part 2 ) thread, but decided to keep it all here.
Yesterday I finally got it all finished and today had a quick pootle about over the local nature park near me.
Initial impressions, it works and no error codes.
The quick ride makes the bike feel very moped like, the tsdz2 imv is not going to benefit much in expanding too much effort compared to my hub bikes which need more rider effort. The so called natural feel was also imv very unnatural and nothing what so ever like a push bike in applying effort or come to that even like a hub motored bike. I now see why when I see branded mid drives with fair weather riders wooshing along why they make riding so easy, there is little effort/energy expanded to use them.
The motor is a bit loud not in a clanky way but motor whirring, unlike a hub motor it changes tone when changing gear. This being the torque/rpm effect a bit like a gearbox.

With out even trying to exert myself I recorded 20.6mph on the odo, I must tke my gps with me next time to see I have the wheel circumference correct.



Pic is poor so will try again another day, I have a 2 x up front 42/32t

 

[Nealh]

The inner BB shell needed a bit of attention with a small rounded fine chainsaw file to reomove some burrs in three locations where the ali tubes meet.
The chain wheel was fairly easy to sort out, I had to buy some longer chain wheel bolts and add 1mm spacing washers to get chain spacing correct for shifting across.
I wasn't keen on the chain ring guard wiht the silver bling line around it, it looked cheap and unneccessary so I simply reversed the face for the all Black look.
The exsisting Acera derailleur mech wouldn't adjust correctly to acoomodate the 2x set up, so I turned to favourite source (Bankrupt bike parts on ebay) and found a Sunrace m90md 31.8mm triple mech that did the job. Adjusted the stops so only two gears tops are used on the handle bar.
I swapped both thumb gear levers out for shimano microshift twist grips for a more comfortable gear change action.
The chain I added some links to for a 140 link chain and change the rear cassette from 34/11t to 36 /11t the mech had enough adjustment that can accomodate the extra sprocket. Chain line is out I haven't measured it but being a long tail and the extra stay/rear drop out length one doesn't get cross chianing and all 18 gears are usable.

 

[Nealh]

I have used the osf firmware as indicated in this thread but expect I shall have to carry out somemore changes to the settings, for now I have settled on the hybrid mode to use which is combined mix of PAS mode & Torque Assist mode.
All battery settings in Tab 3. adv settings are adjsuted for 44v/12s battery specs.
I did carry out for the sake of it some internal cooling mods as I will be towing a trailer at times.

With the side cover off there is chamber full of nothing but air.


Air is avery poor heat conductor so it appears a worth while effort to fill this with some heat transfer material. I used some copper wire soldering mesh scrunched up tightly and covered aluminium tape and pummelled it gently to fill the space tightly.


The top of the void I finished off with some heat sink sheet which is much like putty, the same stuff I use to cover the motor winding and to effect heat transfer by filling in also the air voids their.


Once I have finsished the putty, there is still a 1..5/2mm airgap when the motor is fitted back on, so I use some 1mm copper heat sinks and (not seen) in this pic a 0.5mm layer of the putty sheet on top of the heat sinks.


Here I start applying the heat sink putty to infill the air space around the motor.
For some reason I have no othe rpics of the encapsulated motor.
Also on the end of the motor I place a 1.5mm sheet of putty as well so it touches the motor cover when on.

 

[Nealh]

The BB shaft can have some play in it rotaionally as it lacks some support.
On the chain wheel spider side one can pry out the rubber sealing cap and place a sealed bearing in situ for added shaft support.On top I use some strong heat silicone paste to stick a 1mm neoprene seal on with.



On the non drive side one can do the same, pry out the sealing cap and there is a large void within.


There is room for another sealed bearing for shaft support, and when pushed in the original seal can be pushed in on top. If one wanted to a second bearing could sit on top and one could place a neoprene sealing washer on top.

 

[peter.c]

The second bearing is a good idea mine snapped at the circlip also the 8mm thread pedal arm bolt hole was extra deep into the shaft

 

[guerney]

The quick ride makes the bike feel very moped like, the tsdz2 imv is not going to benefit much in expanding too much effort compared to my hub bikes which need more rider effort. The so called natural feel was also imv very unnatural and nothing what so ever like a push bike in applying effort or come to that even like a hub motored bike. I now see why when I see branded mid drives with fair weather riders wooshing along why they make riding so easy, there is little effort/energy expanded to use them.

Right there, you have put me off ever entertaining the idea of ever getting a hub motor! Riding my bbs01b feels like flying, I am the real Superman! Zero effort cycling miles whooshing by, is my favourite thing (almost).

The motor is a bit loud not in a clanky way but motor whirring, unlike a hub motor it changes tone when changing gear.

...and that right there has further put me off ever entertaining the idea of getting a TSDZ2! My bbs01b is ver ver quiet, unless under high load, which is when it becomes merely quiet.

As a cargo hauler, your TSDZ2 will be under more stress than on just a normal bike - I'm liking all the heat mod details. With the hot weather which is supposedly on it's way, I'm sure that'll all help prevent potentially melty problems with the blue gear, which I read about somewhere.

I must look into installing a double chainring up front, I think that a 46T and 60T would be perfect for me.

 

[Bikes4two]

Hi Neal,
How different we are in terms of our perceptions of ebike motor systems

The quick ride makes the bike feel very moped like, the tsdz2 imv is not going to benefit much in expanding too much effort compared to my hub bikes which need more rider effort. The so called natural feel was also imv very unnatural and nothing what so ever like a push bike in applying effort or come to that even like a hub motored bike.

I've ridden a rear hub drive with a KT controller (torque simulation)but only the one model and only a couple of hundred miles - so I don't have the experience that you do, but I have done tens of thousands of miles on an unassited bike and I found the TSDZ2 very much to my liking as to me it emulated normal riding very nicely. I have also ridden my friend's £5k machine with a Shimano Steps motor and another friend's Bosch Active Line motor and I thought the TSDZ2 faired well against both in terms of the ride experience.

..... now see why when I see branded mid drives with fair weather riders wooshing along why they make riding so easy, there is little effort/energy expanded to use them.

True enough, but that's down to what power assist the rider chooses. I ride mainly ECO level and I get a good level of workout if I choose to. If I felt the TSDZ2 was still giving too much assist in the ECO setting, then I can adjust the level of assist using the OSF system.
EDIT: I note Neal in a later post that the ride mode you used is HYBRID ASSIST MODE - I've only ever ridden in POWER ASSIST MODE - I wonder if that is why our ride experiences might be different?

The motor is a bit loud not in a clanky way but motor whirring, unlike a hub motor it changes tone when changing gear. This being the torque/rpm effect a bit like a gearbox.

I have ridden with (as in shared rides with other TSDZ2 riders) 5 different motors and it is the case that some seem quieter than others. My motor in a steel Dawes Galaxy frame is as quiet as the Steps and Bosch, but a friend's motor in an aluminium frame is noisier - some of that will be down to the 'echoing' in the larger aluminium tubes, but none the less, their motor does emit more noise than mine - manufacturing (in)tolerances I guess?

With out even trying to exert myself I recorded 20.6mph on the odo, I must tke my gps with me next time to see I have the wheel circumference correct.

So have you got the assist level set to 25kph or the higher setting? I have mine set to 25kph but in certain cycling situations I far exceed that speed but that's down to my own input, not the motor.

Anyway, I really like your conversion but if you decide the TSDZ2 is not the motor for you and want to sell it on, can you give me first refusal please?

 

[Bikes4two]

Hi @guerney - I know from previous posts that you are a keen fan of the BBSxxx motors - as much as I am with the TSDZ2. I suspect though that we have quite different ride requirements from our motors?

I would gladly consider a BBSxxx motor if it operated in the torque mode that the TSDZ2 does - I really would like to meet up with a BBSxxx motor rider to do a side by side comparison - I don't suppose you live anywhere down South Hampshire way - I'd be happy to meet up and bye you some cake and coffee and yak an hour or two about motors .

As a cargo hauler, your TSDZ2 will be under more stress than on just a normal bike - I'm liking all the heat mod details. With the hot weather which is supposedly on it's way, I'm sure that'll all help prevent potentially melty problems with the blue gear, which I read about somewhere.

Now that is true enough (the more stress thing) - I do not stress my TSDZ2 and in the recent heat wave I was riding in 35degC and the motor got barely warm (see my observations here). However, I know that @Nealh has looked into the observations and mods done by others on the Endless Sphere forum and given the TSDZ2 will be hauling a cargo bike, then better safe than sorry.

The Blue Gear problem - firstly, 3000km on my blue gear looks totally unaffected by wear or anything else and even if it were, to change it out is a simple task as low cost a no big deal.

 

[Bikes4two]

Hi @Nealh - good work on increasing the thermal conductivity of the motor casing - are you going to fit the thermistor to the motor to measure the temperture?

And I really like the additional bearings for the axle - can I ask what size the bearings are and where you got them from please as that is a mode I'd be happy to do.

 

[Bikes4two]

The second bearing is a good idea mine snapped at the circlip also the 8mm thread pedal arm bolt hole was extra deep into the shaft

Hi Peter,
I guess you are refering to the axle snapping? Can I ask what sort of riding you do with your TSDZ2 fitted machine? For instance, are you a mountain biker and do you do jumps and so forth (I'm thinking about the stresses on the axle).

The additional bearings fitted by @Nealh seem like a worthwhile measure although I do wonder if for riders like me (road riding in ECO with very occasional 'honking') it might be overkill, but for a few quid.......!

 

[peter.c]

Large lump so ride in seated position no jumps , the shaft that snapped was fitted in a charge cooker 100mm bb size special order from china lasted 150 miles ,
After trying 36 v tsdz2 and 48v versions in standard 68mm hard tail- fat bike 100mm and 120mm - and a fs bike. Loved the first few motors but hated the later versions, the quality control was hit and miss a good idea.
Gone back to bafang latest is a bbs01 48v 250w 12 amp

 

[Nealh]

Hi @Nealh - good work on increasing the thermal conductivity of the motor casing - are you going to fit the thermistor to the motor to measure the temperture?

And I really like the additional bearings for the axle - can I ask what size the bearings are and where you got them from please as that is a mode I'd be happy to do.

Delayed replies as phone and interweb has been down since Friday afternoon, lots of fibre work on going in the area and look slike someone sabotaged my connections.

Both are 6902-2RS size. On ES they recommend a 6902-LLU-MAX (exactly same size ) as a better bearing for the RHS, use a 1 or 2mm neoprene flat seal adhered to the bearing face to prevent dust and mositure ingress.
One can add two extra on the LHS if one wishes using a neoprene face seal or just the one and the original seal on top.

 

[Nealh]

I have some OSF tinkering to do to get the power delivery more to my liking, I initially simply uploaded the latest OSF ini. file as it is. The speed wasn't capped to 25km/h so I was getting assist above that which I didn't want in ECO.
During the ride I turned the power to 0 and still easily was up in the high teens on my own power, like the G370 hub the tsdz seems to ride very easily withut power on the flat terrain.
Ultimately I want to programme Eco for a weaker power delivery and tour as slightly higher power mode for inclines, sport/turbo I don't need.

The whirring noise isn't an issue for me, it's an ebike so except for the hard of hearing one's approach cna be heard as one nears walkers etc, on the cycle & bridleways.
In all it is no loude rthen my hub motor's.

The Ute rides very sweetly with the tsdz and the 650b/47c 's give a good ride soaking up the undulations.
Gear shifting I set up and adjusted on the stand before the test ride, both front and rear changes work perfectly in all 18 gears. Chain line is pretty good, on the 42t chain ring and 5 gear it is dead straight.

Ride use wise It feels far better then my BBS01 I had/have more so if one wants frugality and being able to ride unpowered, BBS may be a better build quality but for long range riding as Matt has just done I would want the ability to extend range by having no power at times.

 

[Bikes4two]

...........use a 1 or 2mm neoprene flat seal adhered to the bearing face to prevent dust and mositure ingress.
.......

Excuss my ignorance Neal, but I've not heard of neoprene face seals - what are they - just neoprene washers the same diameter of the bearing? Any web links or pics of these items please?

Ali Express do the 6902 2RS at very reasonable prices.

 

[Nealh]

I go bought the bits from ebay, the cost for little items seems there is little in it from Ali unless one wants more then one and can wait for delivery.
Neoprene washers for seals, various sizes and thickness.
5 x Solid Neoprene Rubber Penny Washer 1mm thick - pick your own size | eBay

6902rs
BICYCLE STEEL BEARINGS FOR HUBS/WHEELS, CASSETTE & BOTTOM BRACKET (MTB/ROAD/BMX) | eBay

6902 llu max
ENDURO BEARINGS - MAX, ABEC3, ABEC5, CERAMIC ZERO, HEADSET, STAINLESS AND SEALS | eBay

 

[Bikes4two]

Hi @Nealh - a question please:

• looking back at your post #425 where you fitted extra bearings to the drive and non-drive side of the main gear shaft/axle:
• I've now obtained some bearings and 'penny washer' seals and am all poised to go but on the non-drive side (and looking at your picture), it looks as though the fitting of an additional bearing would cover up access to the circlip?
• If this is the case, can the bearing be removed to allow motor strip-down?
• I thought I'd ask before getting my tool-box open

 

[Nealh]

The LHS bearing is a snug fit so one will need a magnet or invert that motor side for removal, but yes it is removable so the circlip can be got at.
On the RHS the bearing may need loctiting in place if too loose.

 

[Nealh]

Last week I tweeked the firmware % settings on the PAS and TS settings as I'm using the bike in hybrid mode rather then outright TS mode. The hybrid mode splits the values and is combo of both inputs, one still gets the boost with pressing harder on the pedals, also I unticked the street mode box so the tame lion now has a bit more roar to it and noticeably the bike felt much spritelier.
I didn't have the trailer hooked up so likley will have to wait to see how it pulls with the new settings, waiting around the corner are some TS only updates to try out.

The idea with the hybrid mode is one gets good torque at lower pedal cadence from the PAS mode but also gets the TS kick in once the cadence rises with more pedal effort. I have to say form the off the acceleration and instant power feel pretty good and as I generally have a low cadence anyway of about 65 - 78rpm the changes should suit me a lot better now.

I found a couple of heavy duty cable ties and have fitted the extra torque securing bracket to the motor, though not having anwhere for the top bolt fixing to fit to I have ustilised the cable ties to tie the bracket up to the frame member behind the seat tube.

Only issue now is the motor isn't cutting out at 17mph so something I need to look at again.
I may enable street mode again just to see how the ride is with the new % settings but expect battery usage may be a bit worse without street mode.

 

[Bikes4two]

Only issue now is the motor isn't cutting out at 17mph so something I need to look at again.
I may enable street mode again just to see how the ride is with the new % settings but expect battery usage may be a bit worse.

Glad to see you're having fun with OSF - lots of things to tweek and play with. Maybe the one in the pic below?