more power- lower age

[electric.mike]

lowering the age for riding electric bikes, an interesting topic,increasing the power of electric bikes, another interesting topic,should both the topics happen together ?another interesting topic.
i think we have to examine the need for these changes very carefully, if indeed there really is a need, not just a desire among a small number of cyclist who feel they have a use for more speed, and an even smaller number of suppliers who want a larger market sector of children, who have nowhere else to go for any form of motorised transport.
i don't ride my bike in other towns or cities, only grimsby and cleethorpes, so i can only talk about this area i know a fit regular cyclist can reach a fair pace on the right bike, but around here they generally don't.we ride at 8-12mph if we are overtaken by a cyclist twice a week that's all,then those cyclists have had to leave the bike lane because they are the minority, and get fed up with pulling out into the traffic to get past the majority of us.
surely the name electric bike sums it up, its a bicycle with an electric motor it was never designed to be any more, if people want any more then they already have it correctly named electric moped and electric scooter, both designed for more speed with suspension,handling and brakes to match.
i hope i will still be welcome when i say i don't want the cycle lanes to be full of 20-25mph cyclists, most around here are not designed for this to happen safely,already on this forum i hear of people deregulating 15mph machines to achieve 20-25mph how fast will a deregulated 20-25mph bike go.
it may be if these changes happen, within a few years the government will step in with controls ie mot, insurance, road tax, banned from bike lanes are just a few possibilities,at the moment they are leaving us to enjoy ourselves with a cheap, safe, environmentally friendly, and a fun mode of transport.

the lowering of the age restrictions! tell would this be a separate power band or would we give 12 year old children machines capable of 20-25mph, children are already killed and maimed on push bikes do we really want to give them the more chance to appear from nowhere in front of a lorry? the press would have a field day with the first serious accident CHILD KILLED ON HIGH SPEED DEATH MACHINE any one who thinks it would be reported more truthfully is not in the real world.
who would buy this new toy? the hard pressed parent (often single) whose child has to have the latest football strip, named trainers,designer tee shirt,mobile phone,ect ect
sorry i don't see selling to 12 year olds will do any thing to further the expansion of electric bike use.
the only way i see to increase the sales of electric bikes is to develope reliable, hill climbing, long range electric bikes, the only people that ask me how fast my bike goes are children, adults ask me how far will it go, and how long does the battery last.
sorry to go against the general direction of this forum and yes i am a cynic born of many years experience as they say
mike

 

[flecc]

We've had this discussion before as you know Mike.

I absolutely agree with you regarding your point of an electric bike being just that, a bike with some electric assistance for hills etc. The Swiss solution for those who want more may be the best, a separate class with compulsory insurance and possible other restrictions. But I also have much sympathy for your view that those who want more are well served already as you've described.

However, I'm completely opposed to your anti views on children on electric bikes. As long as they can only ride the legal class of 15 mph bikes there is no demonstrable problem, and this is true for the following reasons:

1) They already can and do ride normal bikes at speeds greater than 15 mph.

2) The full suspension cheap steel bikes they have at present, bought from Halfords, discounters and the like, are very heavy, often far heavier than the bulk of electric bikes which have tended to get lighter. I know, I've actually checked many of them.

3) Since they already do anything a legal electric bike can do on their present bikes, and those haven't got an age restriction, there's no grounds for ANY age restriction on electric assist bikes.

4) The effort of pedalling, especially for the younger child on a hill, will often produce a head down situation with the concentration on the effort. The ease of riding an electric assist means that doesn't arise, so all attention is free to be on the road. Therefore the electric assist bike is intrinsically safer for every rider, regardless of age.

5) Those under 14 who've tried my electrics love the Quando most. It runs on throttle to around 15/16 mph and because of it's single gear cannot be pedalled faster. They don't mind, they're very happy to ride at 15 mph, where when pedalling their own bikes they furiously try to reach the maximum speed possible very often. In other words, it's a different experience producing entirely different reactions. Because they have to pedal their own bikes, it's a challenge, which being kids they rise to. Because the electric experience is the pleasure of being powered, they're happy with that, there's no challenge to rise to, just the experience to enjoy.

6) Therefore, from points (4) and (5) above, using electric bikes would reduce child cycling accidents, injuries and deaths.

7) No-one with views opposing mine on this has EVER produced a single rational point or argument supporting their point of view which the above hasn't already answered. The day they do, I'm very ready to listen.
.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi mike
i suppose it depends on which way you see things i would rather see more kids on electric bikes then mopeds for a start it would be better for the enviroment and the lower speed of electric bikes would be safer then a moped. I also would find the extra speed very handy quite often to move out of the way of traffic behind me sometimes 15mph seems to be just a little to slow for our busy roads.nigel.

 

[electric.mike]

FLECC

7) No-one with views opposing mine on this has EVER produced a single rational point or argument supporting their point of view which the above hasn't already answered. The day they do, I'm very ready to listen

i most certainly cannot give any scientific arguments against your statements all i can draw on is my own childhood, which begins with that old saying you cant put an old head on young shoulders.
the list of stupid things i and many of my young friends did on bikes is endless i think the main reason i survived them is because they didn't usually happen at 15mph.
eg. i wanted cowhorn handlebars, my parents couldn't afford them so i found 15in of copper pipe fitted in the end of my semi cow bars, great i had what i wanted,
first time i came to a kerb i lifted the front of the bike as you did to avoid wheel damage and there i was with a length of copper pipe in each hand with no connection to the bike.
or the time my mate decided to lay down in front of me i ran into him and went over the handlebars.
the amount of time i rode around with only one brake or none at all
had a mate on the crossbar
towed some one on roller skates
as i say the list is endless and none of these things where done whilst under adult supervision, then i was the picture of sensibility i had to be or i would have had my bike taken off me.
children do not see danger and i know if i could have gone at 15mph everywhere without pedalling i would have been more of a danger to myself and every one else, 15mph was not an all the time speed, it was used sparingly because on old heavy bikes it had to be worked for.
you may be right in every thing you say and i hope you are,and ime sure you don't begrudge me my opinions based on my own experience.

 

[electric.mike]

Hi mike
i suppose it depends on which way you see things i would rather see more kids on electric bikes then mopeds for a start it would be better for the enviroment and the lower speed of electric bikes would be safer then a moped. I also would find the extra speed very handy quite often to move out of the way of traffic behind me sometimes 15mph seems to be just a little to slow for our busy roads.nigel.

NIGEL the kids ime talking about would be too young for mopeds, and when ever i see a request for lowering the age and then a request for more speed i don't any one saying if 12 year olds should have this new speed or if we need two classes.
MIKE

 

[flecc]

Not only do I not begrudge you your opinions as expressed in your last post above Mike, I support your right to give them, and furthermore, I agree with nearly every word!

But as I think you recognise, none of those facts you've expressed, and they are definitely factual, are different for electric or non-electric.

What you've said is a perfectly rational case for banning children below the age of 14 or whatever from riding any bike, electric or not.

If you took that position, the difficulties of arguing each case would be reversed. You would have all the facts, child accident statistics etc, and I'd be left struggling with wimpish opinions on vague things like lack of freedom impairing child development, and having to rely on psychological opinion.

Over to you for a decision! What do you think?

(P.S. I did all those same things as a kid, especially roller skate tows behind trucks!)
.

 

[electric.mike]

FLECC first point if we got extra power and a reduction of age should the two things be allowed to go together?

would children be limited to single speed bikes (you seem to be saying this is a safety factor on your quando "spelling")
if children of 12 had the same power as every one else what would there acceleration be like compared to heavier adults? children already pull out in front of you imagine if the acceleration allowed them to do it faster with being lighter, do they need throttle power or just pedalec. if i could be persuaded to your way of thinking it would not be if power increase and age reduction came together also i would need to see compulsory road safety training this i think should be for any type of bike and should be renewed every couple of years from what ever age a child goes on the road up to up to 15 (i have always ridden motor bikes push bikes electric bikes and driven cars with the thought in mind that other road users are out to get me)
its a decision ime pleased i don't have to make we have to let our children develope and grow we cant wrap them in cotton wool but we are responsible for there safety and i don't see enough in you argument to make me think electric bikes in the hands of children as young as 12 is a good idea.and as you say you cant see anything in mine to show its a bad idea.
so i look forward to crossing pens or keyboards with you over this in the future,if we all thought alike life would be boring.
mike

 

[flecc]

No to either point Mike. The faster bike group is a red herring, nothing to do with allowing kids to ride the existing 15 mph group which I support. As I've already said, having a separate high speed class as per the Swiss is ok, but I've never said anything about including the kids in that.

And no, I didn't only mean single speed, that illustration was to support what I said about someone being happy with what the power aspect provided. Those kids were quite free to try and ride faster than the Quando took them too, but they don't even try because they've got the twistgrip.

I can understand the psychology of that difference. When I'm riding the Torq which has to be pedalled due to it's characteristics, I usually try to get the best out of it. When I'm riding the Quando which doesn't have to be pedalled, I'm quite happy to let it run on twistgrip alone and just let it do it's own thing.

Still think you should come off the fence though, ban or no ban for all bikes or no bikes.

I believe the position that you're taking is the same as that of the people who first created the speed limit. They're kids, they need protection so it seems right. Unfortunately it's a view which doesn't look at the whole, just the electric side, and it's a view that really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm sure those legislators didn't even stop to think of the whole situation, they just did the knee jerk thing that seemed right at the time.

I'd bet if they had never introduced an age ban, this subject would never have cropped up since there would have been no difference in accidents with electric or non-electric bikes. As with all British accident statistics, child cycling accidents are incredibly low anyway, considering our crowded island and the fifteen million children in it.
.

 

[electric.mike]

Still think you should come off the fence though, ban or no ban for all bikes or no bikes.

well i don't think ime on the fence, i don't see the ability to reach 15mph without putting any effort into it as being likely to encourage children, especially young boys to travel at any other speed most of the time, where as having to work hard as you say on a cheap heavy mountain bike to reach that speed and maintain it, that's a different story.
speed is a relative thing, and the easier it is for children to reach a certain speed the more likely they are to use it, being children we have to understand there idea where it is safe to do certain things, and where it isn't are not based on the same experience of life as ours.
i see children riding dangerously through our pedestrian areas on push bikes they manage to be dangerous at about 8mph the only reason they don't go faster is because the weaving between pedestrians slows there pedalling, if they only had to twist a throttle it would be scary.
the main reason child cycling accidents are so low imo, is because at the moment most children do not travel at 15mph and slow moving children are easier to avoid, i have had two occasions where a child has ridden out of a side passage over the path onto the road infront of my camper van my sight of the children both about 10 or 11 was only when they reached the path at the low speed they where travelling at i just managed to stop in time, (i wasn't speeding i don't do that) if they had crossed the path at 15mph i dread to think about the result.
i would not say all children should be banned from riding bikes but we allow them to go onto our roads with no training on how to avoid accidents at ages around here 7or8 upwards i go kayaking i would not allow a child to go out without being able to swim and wearing a life jacket and training.i cant swim but as an adult i know my life jacket will save me (experiance and knowledge of life.)

you hit a child on a bike in your car and see if it matters where the blame is if you kill one apart from every thing else how do you live with it.
i cant comment on your facts and observations i can only go on my own observations and it proves to me children are by nature immature and likely to make mistakes, if they are going to do that in front of my van a slower speed gives me more warning.
really ime not on the fence i think pushbikes at the speed they are ridden you can cope with i think the chance of a child doing something stupid in front of your car at 15mph is two to three times more difficult.
mike

 

[flecc]

P.S. One thing that's certain Mike, there's no chance of my argument in this matter achieving anything. In the nanny state we've created the chance of getting this sort of law removed is absolutely nil. Judging by motor cycle age legislation, it's more likely the age limit is raised!

I think you greatly exaggerate the 15 mph issue, the kids round here are doing that and more a lot of the time. Nor is it true they'd be doing 15 all the time as you said before. When hill climbing, turning in the road, hopping up kerbs etc, they'd be going a lot slower often.

It's obvious we'd never agree, since I start from a viewpoint that's so utterly different on the whole issue of kids protection. I think we should be getting off their backs and giving them the freedom to live. I feel very sorry for them when I compare how I lived my early years and the ridiculous restrictions they suffer.

We should be reducing them, not increasing them.

 

[electric.mike]

I think we should be getting off their backs and giving them the freedom to live.

this comment strikes a chord with me i was born and lived in a village until i was 21 the freedom i had could only be dreamt of now, shooting and fishing, at the age of 14 i had a 125cc bsa to ride over the fields with the only comment from the farmer don't do that when i get my spuds in,even when i ask if i could shoot on another farmers land his answer was yeah but don't shoot the beasts (bullocks for the townies) that's BULLOCKS.the good old days.
nanny state i agree with but that's more a control thing we mustn't think for our self's.
mike

 

[flecc]

Very similar to my own freedoms Mike, but I view the restrictions on kids as being very much a part of the nanny state, not it just being restrictions on us.

There's so much thats just plain silly and clear evidence that things aren't thought through as I contend with this e-bike issue.

Here's one that usually opens a few eyes. Our governments encourage people to learn to swim, particularly kids, with the stricture, "it may save your life".

Between 500 and over 1000 people drown in UK inland and offshore waters every year, and investigation shows they were nearly all swimmers. Non-swimmers keep out of the water and therefore rarely drown. Far from swimming saving lives, it can be shown that it rarely saves a life but costs very many. Amongst them are many more children than are killed on our roads. And the government goes on saying, "learn to swim, it may save your life".

If that isn't clear evidence that our legislators don't think and don't look at the facts, nothing is.
.

 

[electric.mike]

as i said i go sea kayaking and cant swim thus relying on my life jacket with statistics like that ime glad i cant swim
before anybody thinks ime daft who went on holiday in a plane last year, and can they flap there arms and fly
mike

 

[flecc]

who went on holiday in a plane last year, and can they flap there arms and fly
mike

Dead right Mike, I've quoted that one too!

 

[Carl]

Just to add;
There is very little chance of the speed limit being increased in the near future. New Euro laws are being drawn up now and there aren't any major changes in anything, they are just being rewritten to clarify things that I suppose people have found loopholes in so far!

 

[flecc]

Exactly as I said earlier in the thread on how I expected things to develop Carl, more rather than less restriction in effect.

A good way to damage the market, give customers less choice, so helping to keep them in cars.

 

[rsscott]

I agree, I don't see any relaxation of the current situation. Interesting though, how to keep an army of eurocrats busy - get them to rewrite the laws but don't change anything

 

[Carl]

Apparently is was rewritten so badly, it had to be re-rewritten too