Misleading advertising 250w power rating ebikes - not

[soundwave]

the fact that you can go in to the settings and are able to change it makes it not road legal same as a switch ect.

with a dongle you have to fit it to the bike but if it is removed you cant go in to the display and change anything like the max power and speed ect as it is locked with no way in so a dongle is the only option.

 

[Woosh]

SW, it's just a password.
Most LCDs can have their password set before delivery.
You would be then obliged to turn off or unplug the speed sensor to obtain assistance regardless of speed.
So the discussion is: does the removal of the password make the bike illegal?

 

[flecc]

Both mechanisms cannot be performed on the fly. You have to stop the bike and do it.
So it's clear when you ride a legal bike and when you are not. You can't switch from one mode to the other like you can stop using the throttle or switch your lights on and off for example.

Still the same mistake, these things are immaterial.

Can the rider exceed the exemption limitations using available controls?

If the answer is yes, the machine is not a legal pedelec since it does not qualify for the exemption.
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[Woosh]

flecc, the LCD has password protection.
I try to steer the conversation toward general acceptance that the LCD password is necessary in keeping the bike legal.
From then, move on to whether the removal of the password equals to fitting a dongle.

 

[soundwave]

SW, it's just a password.
Most LCDs can have their password set.
You would be then obliged to turn off or unplug the speed sensor.

bosch bikes dont have any password thats the point as passwords can be broken so that option needs to be removed from the display so there is no way a user can get inside the system and change anything.

and then they will just dump the display and controller if they want to go faster same as fitting a dongle

 

[Woosh]

if you can upload firmware either through a USB port or the LCD connector then it can be bypassed. We should examine the differences, or not, because a defeat device if it does its job then there should not be any difference whether the defeat device is hardware or software or a combination of those two.

 

[soundwave]

not even dealers with the bosch software can change the power and speed settings as it can only be done at the factory when there made.

if there was a way in id have found it buy now but still the only option is £150 dongles that are a fkn rip off.

if there is any way at all a user can change the bikes speed settings in the display they are not road legal.

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if i stuck that on a mtb and set it to 15mph and 250w do you think it will be road legal nope lol

 

[Woosh]

you have to have proprietary systems for that. If you want interoperability, then those who want to derestrict will simply by a replacement LCD if they don't know the password.
If you say 'then it's OK if the guy wants to buy a new LCD', we can move the conversation on ' how difficult to guess the password has to be?'

 

[soundwave]

how long is the password and can a different one be used on every bike sold?

 

[vfr400]

not even dealers with the bosch software can change the power and speed settings as it can only be done at the factory when there made.

That's not true. I keep telling you, I've seen one done.

 

[soundwave]

That's not true. I keep telling you, I've seen one done.

but you never prove it last link you gave me was the bosch web site put up or shut up

 

[Woosh]

how long is the password and can a different one be used on every bike sold?

LCD password is 4 digits, each is made of a number of key presses, so between 8 key presses and 50 key presses and yes, it can be set individually.
Once you accept that LCD should be locked, then we can move on to the next point:
If it's clear that the guy who replaces his passworded LCD is breaking the law, then why the guy who broke the password does not break the law?

 

[soundwave]

LCD password is 4 digits, each is made of a number of key presses, so between 8 key presses and 50 key presses and yes, it can be set individually.

well if you set a custom password for every bike sold then it is not as easy as going on line and finding the default password for every display.

it will make it a lot harder for anyone trying to guess what it is but it still could be broken in to with effort.

id do that and if they want the password its £55

 

[Woosh]

we all have our personal views but if you take into account the greater good of interoperability and freedom from single sourcing for hardware and services and accept that the guilt is with those who break the law knowingly, regardless of the means, then the end product is likely to be cheaper and customers better served with the LCD left unlocked.

 

[soundwave]

at the end of the day no test case has been brought over this matter and the way things are going i doubt it ever will esp now with hire scooter on the road.

just think of what bosch ect spent on r and d and to this day cant stop dongles from working.

now if i did manage to hack the Bosch software and tried to sell it id have the living **** sued out of me buy Bosch and they would soon find a way to patch it even if i gave it away for free.

 

[Woosh]

Still the same mistake, these things are immaterial.

Can the rider exceed the exemption limitations using available controls?

If the answer is yes, the machine is not a legal pedelec since it does not qualify for the exemption.
.

Let's deal with this methodically, one bit at a time.
It's clear that changing the settings of the bike is illegal but we are not talking about that. We are talking about bikes compliance with regulations.

it's clear that when the bike is delivered, the customer cannot change the speed limiter's setting by himself. Indeed, the majority are not interested in removing or altering the speed limiter.
Are we agreed at this point that the bike is legal?

However, some can go on to this forum and ask around how to do it and some members will assist.

1. He'll soon learn that removing the speed sensor is one way.
Are you saying that a bike that continues to assist when its speed sensor is removed is illegal?

2. he learns that there is a secret sequence of key presses (aka entering the password) and he can change from km to miles. He learns that he can also up the maximum speed from 15mph to 25mph.
Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

3. He learns that the bike will take another LCD from another manufacturer or he can simply rewire the on/off switch.
Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

 

[flecc]

Let's deal with this methodically, one bit at a time.
It's clear that changing the settings of the bike is illegal but we are not talking about that. We are talking about bikes compliance with regulations.

it's clear that when the bike is delivered, the customer cannot change the speed limiter's setting by himself. Indeed, the majority are not interested in removing or altering the speed limiter.
Are we agreed at this point that the bike is legal?

However, some can go on to this forum and ask around how to do it and some members will assist.

1. He'll soon learn that removing the speed sensor is one way.
Are you saying that a bike that continues to assist when its speed sensor is removed is illegal?

2. he learns that there is a secret sequence of key presses (aka entering the password) and he can change from km to miles. He learns that he can also up the maximum speed from 15mph to 25mph.
Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

3. He learns that the bike will take another LCD from another manufacturer or he can simply rewire the on/off switch.
Are you saying that the bike is illegal?

I've only ever dealt with this methodically according to law.

Numbers 1 and 3 are illegal actions if taken, modifications to subvert the regulations. Both bikes were perfectly legal before those actions were taken and any compliance status they'd received emphasises that the modifications must not be carried out.

Number 2 depends on the intent of the manufacturer. If the intent was to prevent the owner from making the alteration by sufficiently protecting the access code(s), then the bike is legal.

However it's long been clear to me that this is far from the case since there is no excuse for inclusion of any means of alteration of the legal status, password protected or not. The EU style law is a largely worldwide one now so there's only a need to supply that format for most of the world, with a second format for the US market. After all, cars are supplied in various physical forms for different places in the world, LH drive or RH drive controls and lights, with or without headlight flashers, tinted or plain screens, equipped with differing legally required accessories etc. according to market.

Providing more than one e-bike LCD software formats to comply with national laws is peanuts in comparison, so it's clear to me that the manufacturers avoidance of effort to comply is an intent to allow subversion of the law. That some do make the effort, Bosch and Panasonic for example, is proof enough.
.

 

[flecc]

Shouldn't they be allowed to buy LCDs from other companies?

Of course, supplied by the LCD maker to the correct non-adjustable specification for the intended market. As I said there's hardly any variation, two covers virtually all the world.
.

 

[Handle]

if i stuck that on a mtb and set it to 15mph and 250w do you think it will be road legal nope lol

In many cases they are relying on the fact that the authorities do nothing about such illegality since it's so small in scale. More important things to worry about etc., etc.
.

Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

 

[Woosh]

Isn't it also the case where all home built / modified are technically illegal regardless of 250w 15mph making enforcement largely unenforceable?

I can't imagine anyone selling a kit that is locked.
of course it's unlikely to be enforceable but this is a moral question for manufacturers and sellers. Assisting possible offenders?
You may just as well ask the same questions to members who assist the same possible offenders with their expertise.