Mid motor vs Hub motor.

Nealh

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I climbed DB with my Bafang CST 290rpm with a 36t rear low gear on the steepest sections ( at about 5.2mph) and it certainly whacked me a bit for breath, any lower gearing and I would have been off pushing as the speed would have been to low for me. DB has a few seemingly flatter sections but they lull you in to a false sense before you again hit an incline. Coming down is better esp with no car traffic as in general a bike descends quicker then cars, though you have to careful on some of the corners not to come a cropper.
The distance of 0.9miles might not sound much but for me was more then enough.

Ditchling Beacon
  • Location: South Downs, north east of Brighton
  • Distance: 0.9 miles / 1.45 km
  • Height gain: 143m
  • Average gradient: 9%
  • Max gradient: 16%
  • KOM – Michael Kwiatowski 4.05 – 13.8mph (2014 Tour of Britain)
  • Course record in hill climb – S.Dangerfield, 3.45 (1995) (not sure which version of course).
 

Nealh

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For me TS is not an option, I have tried one on a 10 mile ride with Kalkhoff Speed BS10. The continuous effort needed wasn't for me and ride feel wasn't for me.

With the cadence hub I can toot along at 16/17 mph quite nicely and if I want more speed 18 -24mph I work for it more.

With hubs is it pertinent to select the right rpm wound motor for the job in hand for some one who wants/needs to climb inclines then a 201 - 230rpm is the solution but you sacrifice speed on flatter terrain, there is nothing stopping a rider from peddling above the cut off if they have the leg power/energy.
 
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It's commonly accepted that hub drives suit those who want an e-bike for cycling on mostly flat roads, for example commuters and those with weight and/or fitness issues.

On the other hand, crank drives suit those wanting to deal with steeper gradients and go cross country on MTBs.

It doesn't make too much sense to say that one is better than the other, it all depends on your wants and needs.

Would anybody seriously question whether a sports car is better than a bike?
 

Woosh

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commuters are better off with hub motors on two counts:

- lower TCO
- less maintenance due to the fact that hub motors reduce wear and tear for the drivetrain

The argument about hill climbing ability is long gone - you just buy the motor with the torque you need for your route. The difference in cost is very small: my highest torque hub kits are the 48V SWX02 (freewheel) and DWG22C (cassette), my lowest torque kit is the Aikema 85SX (cassette). Difference in cost: only £30 after adjusting for the cost of the battery.
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?hubkits
 

Woosh

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How much torque can they provide?
60MN at the wheels with the supplied 48V 17A controllers. Both are optimised for 15mph, winding code 16.
If NealH has them, he'll pump 25A @ 48V into them and get 80NM out of them!
 

Woosh

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sometimes the argument between hubs and cranks is mixed up with the quality of the physical bikes.
I converted a couple of days ago a 30 year old Raleigh Richmond, made with Reynolds 531 steel, 3 x 7 speed, with the XF07 front hub.
It was such a pleasant bike to work on, all the threads are still perfect after all the years.
It rides perfectly, only thing not good about it are the brakes blocks. otherwise, the bike feels as light as a feather.
Sparks come off the rims and it takes ages to stop by today's standard.



hires picture here: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/support/raleigh-richmond.jpg
 
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Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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The 201rpm BPM front hub I have is quite immense in power esp up hill in PAS 5, bike gearing though is still critical to prevent motor stall/heating. The penalty though for the hub is 4.4kg of mass at the front end, it will be interesting to see how the 1.7kg G370 front hub performs when it arrives. The 210rpm BPM on level ground at 20a is also quite potent and the use of PAS above level two is simply not needed as the torque is strong and easily moves me along at a max 19mph.

I may have to self quarantine the G370 for 14 days when it arrives ;), seriously though I will disinfect the product with a neat wipe of bleach just in case.
Bleach may cause damage. Use diluted Dettol as per the label, and wipe it off afterwards.
Finally wash all over with WD-40 to protect, except brakes and tyres.
Andy
 

Andy-Mat

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Oct 26, 2018
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sometimes the argument between hubs and cranks is mixed up with the quality of the physical bikes.
I converted a couple of days ago a 30 year old Raleigh Richmond, made with Reynolds 531 steel, 3 x 7 speed, with the XF07 front hub.
It was such a pleasant bike to work on, all the threads are still perfect after all the years.
It rides perfectly, only thing not good about it are the brakes blocks. otherwise, the bike feels as light as a feather.
Sparks come off the rims and it takes ages to stop by today's standard.



hires picture here: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2020/support/raleigh-richmond.jpg
Vee brakes, if fully correctly adjusted, with modern braking material can be quite good, but not as good as disks.
Sparks are very worrying for me personally, metal to metal contact possibly?
Does the front hub not have the possibility of adding at least a disk in the front? The front is the most important brake.
The mounting for the caliper can be bought and carefully added I would have thought! Watch this video:-
I hope this helps.
Andy
 

Woosh

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Andy, you can zoom into the brakes (on the hires file) to see for yourself.
The blocks are hardly used, but the material is early 1980s.
It's a choice between keeping it 'vintage' of fit new blocks.
The owner can always replace the blocks with modern ones for only a couple of quid.
 
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sjpt

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Those look like the standard Weinemann brakes fitted to lots of bikes at that time. They were pretty terrible, and one of the reasons I gave up on my Claude Butler of similar vintage. I though it wasn't worth the cost of getting brazings added for more modern canti or V-brakes.

My son now has that bike and has changed the brakes for modern Shimano dual pivot brakes which (together with modern brake blocks) work very well. Not much left of the original other than the frame. He's doing many more miles on it (non electric) than we are on our e-bikes. Not sure exactly which model brake, probably https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/shimano/BR-R561.html.
 

Woosh

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I could fit new blocks for her but her husband just fell ill - I didn't ask her when we called her.
I'll ask her brother when he comes to collect the bike.
 

Nealh

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60MN at the wheels with the supplied 48V 17A controllers. Both are optimised for 15mph, winding code 16.
If NealH has them, he'll pump 25A @ 48V into them and get 80NM out of them!
Code 16's are like hens teeth for non OEM buyers, I have a code 13 bpm.
16 is awesome a 160rpm load speed hub, Woosh should consider selling them only as well for kit users to fit.
 
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jarob10

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Question; Does anyone know of a controller that would allow programming of a custom curve of torque sensor vs motor current?
 

Woosh

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Question; Does anyone know of a controller that would allow programming of a custom curve of torque sensor vs motor current?
The TSDZ2 is not bad in this respect.
You already got 5 preset torque curves which are in effect the assist levels. You can adjust the sensitivity of the torque sensor so fill in the gaps between the torque curves - it's of limited use though.
 

Nealh

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Question; Does anyone know of a controller that would allow programming of a custom curve of torque sensor vs motor current?
You would probably need to investigate whether a Cycleanalyst or Phaserunner run in conjunction would work but the cost of either is just not worth it, ES is the place to ask .
 

Danidl

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The power [Watts] and torque [Nm] thing ought to be easily understood.

Power brings in the time element, how fast or how slow doing something is achieved.

Doing the task at all is where torque is involved.

Agricultural tractors up till the latest fast ones had small powered engines, but could drag a plough needing lots of torque, that being available because that power was deployed at a very low speed.

So returning to our bikes with the 250 nominal Watts, they can have whatever torque a designer chooses, but with that 250 Watts there comes a limited speed for that torque.

Power is torque multiplied by speed, as simple a relationship as that.


A significant argument for CDs in the pedelec case, is the assist is applied at the same point as the pedaller, so the bike's variable gear options are available to both the motor and the human. This ought to be an obvious advantage where a wide range of torques would be encountered, hills and some off road use, just as with a conventional bike we prefer to have a geared bike for hills. The torque at the wheel contribution from a hub motor, unless it features variable gearing, will always be limited to one maximum value.

In my case a CD enables the use of hub gearing and of a belt drive, way my preferred option for my particular needs. Fundamentally, I need a geared system, ideally a low maintenance one, and importantly as the bike goes in the car and house as clean a bike as possible. A front hub would IMO make a very poor functional alternative, a rear hub, clearly a non starter for my needs.
Force is measured in Newtons. Unless the driving force is greater than the retarding force the device stalls...or gets driven backwards.
Distance is measured in metres
Work is measured in Joules and is the product of Force x Distance.
The Work done in a second is called Power and measured in Watts

For motion in a circle the same principles hold.
Torque is the turning force theoretically available at an arm 1 metre long. from a pivot point. Hence Newton metre.
Distance is circumference of a circle or 2 pi R .
Work done in one rotation is 2pi R x Torque
Power is Work over time hence if that rotation is done in one second that is the power in Watts
All these are definitions and have no particular relevance to electric motors and are equally valid for any rotating machine.
Using gears if different diameters, the Torque and speed can be altered, while still consuming the same power.
There is an interesting point about electrical machines. While they are usually very efficient in converting electric power into mechanical rotating shaft power, ..figures of 90% not uncommon, they can be stalled . If stalled, they are still consuming electrical power, but not doing any mechanical work. And hence have zero efficiency. Under stall all the electrical power is being converted into heat, either in the motor windings or in the controller or in the battery. Likewise they are very poor efficiency when operating very far down their operating range.
The advantage of a crank motor is that the gears can be adjusted for different speeds, slopes and loads . A hub motor has typically only one geared speed for optimum efficiency. However as Woosh states, that is often enough.
 

Woosh

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EddiePJ

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Bosch mid motor we here a lot about and have some issues with bearing failures and water ingress to said bearings, routine grease packing and after market seal is spoken of but for your average Joe/Jo not something they would get involved with.
A certain company gave me a drive unit roughly a year or so ago, with the instruction "see if you can destroy it" The drive unit has only recently failed, despite me trying very hard. The bike on the other hand is all but wrecked. There must have been slight bearing play that I was unaware of, but it was only the dunking of the bike into a pond, that spelt the end.

The conclusion that I came to was that I was either very lucky, or my change in approach to after care, or lack of it, may have helped. Over the space of the year and roughly 2.5k miles, I never once cleaned the drive unit, and only scraped mud and debris away. I have long suspected that it is the way that people use detergents that is a primary cause of failure.

Percentage wise, who knows what the failure rate is, but it could be close to immeasurable given just how many manufacturers use the system.
For me, it is how a company deals with issues that counts, and in respects of that, Bosch are hard to beat.

On the subject of hub V centre drive, I have no preference, and in many respects actually prefer hub drive. I quite miss the enjoyable lazy feel that a hub drive affords. :)